Is T5 still one of the best choices in reef lighting.

[Z Burn's Reefing]

T5s have been the training wheels for LEDs for a reason… anyone that talks negatively about them either don’t know what they are talking about or came into the hobby post-2015 and want to feel good about their gen 3 led fixtures they spent 1k on when there are now gen 10 fixtures available. Reefers can typically remove the T5 training wheels if they double the number of led fixtures they have to obtain adequate coverage. I think the ATI sunpower has been around 15-20 years now and easily competes in SPS growth and coloration of the latest led fixtures at a fraction of the cost… AI blades are great, and I think may be one of the best alternatives to a T5, they are just quite spendy. Seeing used AI blades for sale already as well across the reefing community is a little concerning…can’t go wrong running all T5. Careful of the narrative out there…people just want to make money.

 

[delv2323]

evidence/data for this claim, or is this strictly your opinion?

PAR is a literal measurement of the rays. If the intensity and spectrum is exactly the same, how are you suggesting the “light” is different PAR for PAR?

Also, my buddy is known here and has blown out 7x4 tank using full LEDs and measured 700PAR at his top acros. Explain how he’s lying.

The fact that PAR meters have become a necessary staple, necessary enough that they are offered as a rental...why? Because LED's will destroy your corals if you increase the light too much or swap it out for a more focused but overall weaker LED. I can go from 400 watt halides to an 8 bulb T5 back to 250 watt halides and lose nothing.

PAR meters were never needed in the 90's and only popularized with LEDs becoming de rigueur in the last few years....I could go on but why bother...

 

[djf91]

The fact that PAR meters have become a necessary staple, necessary enough that they are offered as a rental...why? Because LED's will destroy your corals if you increase the light too much or swap it out for a more focused but overall weaker LED. I can go from 400 watt halides to an 8 bulb T5 back to 250 watt halides and lose nothing.

PAR meters were never needed in the 90's and only popularized with LEDs becoming de rigueur in the last few years....I could go on but why bother...

Blanket of light or a bunch of different colored, high powered laser beams.

The LED push is all about more profit.

 

[Spare time]

It's been seen time and again halide /T5 PAR is not the same as LED, especially when it comes to high levels and rapid changes. The shallow water acros I keep (A.Digitiferra, A.Abrononoides, A.Hummilis) glow and thrive under 700-800 PAR. If I could easily provide more I would, as I am trying to recreate a specific area of the reef (I'm at 35,000 GPH flow, conservatively). If it was 1998 again I would be running 400 watt Iwisaki's to accomplish this. Sadly those are now gone.

The "Howdy Doody" beige tenuis that only look good under fruity blue light and "great" under fruity blue light with absurd orange glasses get to sit at the bottom serving as a reminder how great this hobby used to be.

Either way use what you like but the popularity of a more expensive, technologically finicky, and less powerful version as the standard exists due to a move away from DIY hobbyists to consumer hobbyists who just buy off the shelf. IMO, it's a change for the worse.

The only data out there suggests that what you are describing is a result of how LED's tend to have way more photosynthetic power due to heavy blue light, leading to an early photosaturation level. Dana has an led vs MH article on here that shows just that happening.

 

[Spare time]

Bingo. This is spot on. lol.

I miss the golden age of SPS and reef aquariums.

And all of this BS about how Acropora/SPS only need 150 par of dim blue light….and then you see these sickly colored corals, with weird growth structures, bumpy skin, malformed growth tips.

Sounds like someone is cherry picking lol. I've seen absolutely amazing SPS colonies under LED. And yes they don't need insanely high par values. Corals in the wild don't like it and neither do they under blue lighting because of its ability to excite the photo systems more efficiently. And blue isn't "dim" it's just that you are human and have human eyes. It's also a false assumption that higher intensity par means it's better. There is no reason to suspect that once photosaturation has occured. Arguable it just means the lights are less efficient with said spectrum than if it was more tuned.

Also burnt tips is not a lighting issus

 

[buruskeee]

The fact that PAR meters have become a necessary staple, necessary enough that they are offered as a rental...why? Because LED's will destroy your corals if you increase the light too much or swap it out for a more focused but overall weaker LED. I can go from 400 watt halides to an 8 bulb T5 back to 250 watt halides and lose nothing.

PAR meters were never needed in the 90's and only popularized with LEDs becoming de rigueur in the last few years....I could go on but why bother...

Blanket of light or a bunch of different colored, high powered laser beams.

The LED push is all about more profit.

more butt pulled opinions trying to be sold as facts.

Go and put a bunch of MHs where it measures 1000PAR and see if the corals don’t bleach. I was bleaching corals before LEDs were even made into a house light bulb.

As I said, I don’t care for one tech over the other, but baseless claims like these from the MH/T5 truthers are what irks me to call folks out. If you don’t know what you’re talking about, please don’t act like you do and make bad claims without actual empirical evidence.

 

[buruskeee]

The only data out there suggests that what you are describing is a result of how LED's tend to have way more photosynthetic power due to heavy blue light, leading to an early photosaturation level. Dana has a led vs MH article on here that shows just that happening.

Which is a problem with spectrum - not the LEDs themselves as a light source. These people keep trying to argue for MH/T5 spewing out baseless opinions and acting as if it’s fact and proven. It’s the only reason why I care to post - otherwise I wouldn’t care either way what people like.

 

[Z Burn's Reefing]

700 PAR of LED does not equate to 700 PAR of T5/metal halide. We need data still to support that? Is it 2018? Oh dear…maybe the earth is flat.

 

[Spare time]

700 PAR of LED does not equate to 700 PAR of T5/metal halide. We need data still to support that? Is it 2018? Oh dear…maybe the earth is flat.

I think PAR is highly misunderstood by a lot of people and I think it's not the best value since it doesn't dice apart spectrum very well.

 

[Spare time]

Which is a problem with spectrum - not the LEDs themselves as a light source. These people keep trying to argue for MH/T5 spewing out baseless opinions and acting as if it’s fact and proven. It’s the only reason why I care to post - otherwise I wouldn’t care either way what people like.

It's funny because I never thought I'd be arguing with people over their love of lightbulbs lol

 

[Z Burn's Reefing]

I think someone labeled me as a MH/T5 truther, when I’ve ran leds for years. Guess it’s time to bow out. People are angry some reefers like T5 over led for some reason. I don’t get it, and never will. Maybe I need more data…

 

[Spare time]

I think someone labeled me as a MH/T5 truther, when I’ve ran leds for years. Guess it’s time to bow out. People are angry some reefers like T5 over led for some reason. I don’t get it, and never will. Maybe I need more data…

I think it's fine to like one visually over another, but it's when people have bad claims that I feel the need to debate since it's a scientific forum.

 

[Z Burn's Reefing]

Polo reef has a MH tank side by side with a led tank. MH grew the corals out faster and color is better, they talked about it extensively. You can see the evidence. And that is ok…it’s okay if an older lighting technology is better at times at growing corals. I am a scientist for living and that is about as controlled of a study as it gets in the hobby. It’s equivalent to an observational study with elements of a controlled environment. You can check out the YouTube video, came out a few weeks ago. Doesn’t mean leds don’t work well. No one is saying that. So there is no reason to come in Here to a thread asking about T5 and getting anxious that you need data to make you feel good about your leds or my reefbreeders.

I’ve grown corals under all lighting options. T5 grew the corals the fastest, I like MH the best, and leds make the corals pop the most. All my experiences and opinions. As much as this is a scientific forum it’s also a forum full of experiences and opinions.

 

[delv2323]

more butt pulled opinions trying to be sold as facts.

Beyond what I assume to be your preferred method of relaxation/enjoyment, I don't know what your butt has to do with this.

PAR meters are literally pushed as a necessary to get a baseline and when making changes to your LED system. Recommended by manufacturers, blogs, etc.

Reasoning from above of the real need for PAR meters to set up LEDs:

Corals in the wild don't like it and neither do they under blue lighting because of its ability to excite the photo systems more efficiently. And blue isn't "dim" it's just that you are human and have human eyes.

To paraphrase, our eye's can't see the light or make a judgement on what is too strong or too weak, what is under/over powering, hence you can't judge....and we need A PAR METER...lol

They were never recommended as a part of the process of setting up a halide or T5 or VHO system in the past. This isn't opinion, I was there, it's a fact. I'd look at Sanjays charts online, get a baseline for reflector, bulb type and wattage, and ballast and go on about my day.

 

[buruskeee]

700 PAR of LED does not equate to 700 PAR of T5/metal halide. We need data still to support that? Is it 2018? Oh dear…maybe the earth is flat.

The logic being brought to claim MH/T5 is better is very close to those that believe the earth is flat. It's based on "to my eyes, because I said so, because they want you to buy things".

If spectrums are EXACTLY the same, yes 700 PAR from LEDs is exactly what 700 PAR from T5/MH is - there is nothing you can bring forward to disprove this - and I dare you to try and factually disprove this.

Polo reef has a MH tank side by side with a led tank. MH grew the corals out faster and color is better, they talked about it extensively. You can see the evidence.

Yes, and if you actually listen to WHY, then you'll understand what we've been saying in this very thread - PAR is PAR if SPECTRUM is exactly the same, regardless of the light source. As we've said here repeatedly at this point, MH outputs a little bit lower wavelengths in the UV spectrum, which (again as we said) LEDs are still trying to cost effectively manufacture.

But you truther's notion that the technology produces "laser" lights vs "natural" lights is so laughable - it's the exact logic flat earthers use when talking about "water doesn't fall off the surface spinning around a blah blah blah". Again, I'll say it louder so you all understand - IF THE SPECTRUM IS EXACTLY THE SAME, PAR FOR PAR IT'S THE EXACT SAME LIGHT REGARDLESS OF TECHNOLOGY.



I want to add, I wish these tests were done in water after the water filters out some of the spectrum (proven in the ocean UV drops considerably and only the blue/violet wavelengths make it down - hence why LEDs focus on that spectrum rather than waste wattage on other parts of the spectrum). If I had a spectrum meter, I would dust off my old MH fixture (would still need to hunt down a Radium bulb) and so the tests for everyone.

Also to note, we don't really know besides guessing what benefits UV has for corals (also pointed out in the video - they left it as it needs to be researched). Tullio also keeps saying full spectrum, but it's not. The sun has an even wider spectrum (much of which is very harmful).

 

[Z Burn's Reefing]

I feel like you’re arguing about something no one is arguing about. I don’t recall anyone asking WHY a coral may not react the same under 700 PAR of led vs 700 PAR of T5/MH…thanks for sharing your conclusions on spectrum as an explanation for that though.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

Well I really appreciate everyone's input. I'm going to say t5 is still a good place to start for new reefers, and good lights for someone who just wants a set it up that will work without question. Just as mh are awesome for those who run them and for the LED guys supporting development so that they become better and better. In the end, we all have to look at our tanks every day and we are the only one we have to please.

 

[jackson6745]

I like what Abe from Coral Euphoria does. He takes 2 bulbs out of his 8 bulb ati fixture and replaces it with diy led strips. If there was a light that had infused led and t5 like that, I’d be all over it.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

I like what Abe from Coral Euphoria does. He takes 2 bulbs out of his 8 bulb ati fixture and replaces it with diy led strips. If there was a light that had infused led and t5 like that, I’d be all over it.

No one can argue with him lol! I love his videos

 

[jackson6745]

No one can argue with him lol! I love his videos

He’s my favorite YouTube reefer.