Is UV actually viable for parasite management?

[Privateye]

I did not say that at all. I read it from other people here not Facebook. IF IF your fish gets sick with it and it alone which was the question from the poster that expecting a UV Sterilizer may disappoint them . The decision is Ultimately on them . to do their own research then decide . The people that responded on other posts, are not just run of the mill people either . My fish have yet to get anything and one is over 30. Just passing along things I cant help but believe what they say. When I state something I also research it , as best as anyone can . I never say" We Know " either

Whoever said that "ich" cannot be eliminated, they were wrong. That's the part of your post I took issue with, as I would like that myth to leave this industry. Management is sure possible, but elimination is possible as well. It doesn't matter what their background or experience level is - if they say it can't be eliminated from a fish or system, they're simply incorrect. Having taken fish pathology, fish immunology, fish nutrition, and microbiology I'm confident that my educators and textbooks were reliable sources. Yet I'm putting it in a forum post so believe what you wish :)

There are some aquatic animal health specialists here though, and their posts are more-trustworthy.

 

[Freenow54]

Whoever said that "ich" cannot be eliminated, they were wrong. That's the part of your post I took issue with, as I would like that myth to leave this industry. Management is sure possible, but elimination is possible as well. It doesn't matter what their background or experience level is - if they say it can't be eliminated from a fish or system, they're simply incorrect. Having taken fish pathology, fish immunology, fish nutrition, and microbiology I'm confident that my educators and textbooks were reliable sources. Yet I'm putting it in a forum post so believe what you wish :)

There are some aquatic animal health specialists here though, and their posts are more-trustworthy.

Take it up with them . I rely on the accuracy of certain people. I would like nothing more than to learn they were wrong . In the meantime I will not make that statement again . I may try to remember who said it . The reason was in the and I know its the wrong word to use when they are in egg form UV light does not have an effect . I am very interested in seeing others chime in and get a resolution . You have to admit though the old saying you cant believe everything you read , and just like me , your educators could have been regurgitating what they compiled from unreliable sources . So my question is to you not insult . Have you ever dealt with it before . I cannot nor did . Even if I did I possibly could do something wrong . I want a deep discussion on this hopefully

 

[Tahoe61]

The Life Cycle of Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans)

Saltwater ich can be deadly to marine fish. Learn the life cycle of Cryptocaryon so you’ll know how to fight the disease and save your fish!

www.bulkreefsupply.com

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-why-30-days-of-treatment.312674/

Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

I am confident that you as an experienced hobbyist every once in awhile can consider more than a couple sources for accurate information. Both information resources can provide valid arguments regarding the course of action, it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

 

[Freenow54]

The Life Cycle of Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans)

Saltwater ich can be deadly to marine fish. Learn the life cycle of Cryptocaryon so you’ll know how to fight the disease and save your fish!

www.bulkreefsupply.com

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-why-30-days-of-treatment.312674/

Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

I am confident that you as an experienced hobbyist every once in awhile can consider more than a couple sources for accurate information. Both information resources can provide valid arguments regarding the course of action, it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

I stated that I Knew nothing about it if that was directed at my post . I will watch the video with interest now

 

[Freenow54]

Interesting Article that as far as I understand backs up the statements of others as to elimination . So many others are dead set on no Quarantine . Myself have had bad experience with that ( death ) and am very hesitant to use live fish to experiment on until I maybe get it correct . as to Bio pellets Randy Holmes Farley proved that white bio pellet release aluminum into the water. Myself I do not like using chemical treatment . Although I did use it in a fresh water situation with Malawi bloat . I got the information and medication from a lady at pet smart of all places . The fish was quarantined , treated , cured, and reintroduced . So if desperate would have to try copper . Thanks for that much appreciated.

 

[Freenow54]

Again though no posts from anyone who fought it and won . 25 years in the hobby is commendable , but still no proof or even sources given . I am still making mistakes

 

[sgdnycct]

Interesting Article that as far as I understand backs up the statements of others as to elimination . So many others are dead set on no Quarantine . Myself have had bad experience with that ( death ) and am very hesitant to use live fish to experiment on until I maybe get it correct . as to Bio pellets Randy Holmes Farley proved that white bio pellet release aluminum into the water. Myself I do not like using chemical treatment . Although I did use it in a fresh water situation with Malawi bloat . I got the information and medication from a lady at pet smart of all places . The fish was quarantined , treated , cured, and reintroduced . So if desperate would have to try copper . Thanks for that much appreciated.

If I’m understanding you correctly there may be some confusion.

You mentioned that some people don’t QT and you associated that to mean they don’t believe ich can be eliminated.

That may be true with some people but I think most non-QT folks (myself included) understand the science regarding ich and clearly see that elimination is scientifically proven an doable following a very well established and documented method. However, as in my case, I choose not to QT because I don’t think I will get it right 100% of the time. So I have my own way of observing and introducing fish to prevent the spread of disease. I’ve also been doing this a long time so I think that helps.

Even though I don’t QT I wouldn’t recommend it to most people. Does that make sense?

 

[LPS Bum]

I have seen UV and peroxide work really well to control Crypt in a small aquarium. Even with a very small UV it has worked well. I haven’t seen UV control Crypt nearly as well in large tanks with sizable water volumes. That’s why I treat all new fish with copper in QT.

 

[Freenow54]

If I’m understanding you correctly there may be some confusion.

You mentioned that some people don’t QT and you associated that to mean they don’t believe ich can be eliminated.

That may be true with some people but I think most non-QT folks (myself included) understand the science regarding ich and clearly see that elimination is scientifically proven an doable following a very well established and documented method. However, as in my case, I choose not to QT because I don’t think I will get it right 100% of the time. So I have my own way of observing and introducing fish to prevent the spread of disease. I’ve also been doing this a long time so I think that helps.

Even though I don’t QT I wouldn’t recommend it to most people. Does that make sense?

Yes I did not intend to bunch everything together but I tend to ramble . So the Quarantine comment was entirely separate. Your reasons as I stated are exactly why I don't like to Quarantine, The ones at least one in particular believes in building immunity , and that will fight off any sickness . I really would like to know how you do eliminate ICH . If its a combination of UV and chemicals like the article and you have done it please let me know. As stated the article was written by a fellow Hobbyist . Nothing was stated about him actually doing it , and detailing the entire process . I cant see it being that hard to post. Also an article of the same would be a boon

 

[Privateye]

I've fought Ich and Cryptocaryon many times and won. I'm sorry, I didn't explicitly state that before. The example with the fish going from 28 ppt to 0 ppt was my pike livebearer. I've done this many times with other fish too though. At one store I worked at I would routinely acclimate mollies and green spotted puffers to saltwater to double the markets we could offer them to.

For freshwater Ich, I go with salt and heat to eliminate it. If the fish are already heavily infested, I may use a formalin-based product as well. I have never had a recurrence (without adding a new, unquarantined fish) when using the salt and heat method. It just takes a couple of days before you start to see improvement.

For at least "visually" Cryptocaryon (some could have been velvet - I didn't know about or check for the C-shaped nucleus for many of the treatments) I've had success with copper or formalin-based products. TTM makes total sense based on the life cycle too, and I personally know people who have eliminated Cryptocaryon using it. Hyposalinity works because we know fish in freshwater don't get Crypt, and fish in saltwater don't get Ich. Historically I've seen Crypt reoccur more often with my copper treatments than my formalin treatments.

Getting back to the UV though....freshwater Ich is much easier to sterilize than Cryptocaryon. At least according to the published literature. However, there have been anecdotal reports of Crypt sterilization with lower doses, and I've seen some myself. Perhaps those cases turned out to be marine velvet, which is about as easy to sterilize as Ich, but there's something interesting about the trail of research. If you backtrack through references for the 280 mJ/cm2 dose, you'll find that it was never formally tested (if I missed a study, please tell me). It was extrapolated from the dose required for freshwater Ich, and as I recall this was back in the late '80s. So personally, I feel it may be possible to sterilize Crypt at a lower UV dose. I don't have any real data to back that up though. Just cases where the white spots disappeared after adding a UV that would not deliver 280 mJ/cm2.

 

[Freenow54]

I've fought Ich and Cryptocaryon many times and won. I'm sorry, I didn't explicitly state that before. The example with the fish going from 28 ppt to 0 ppt was my pike livebearer. I've done this many times with other fish too though. At one store I worked at I would routinely acclimate mollies and green spotted puffers to saltwater to double the markets we could offer them to.

For freshwater Ich, I go with salt and heat to eliminate it. If the fish are already heavily infested, I may use a formalin-based product as well. I have never had a recurrence (without adding a new, unquarantined fish) when using the salt and heat method. It just takes a couple of days before you start to see improvement.

For at least "visually" Cryptocaryon (some could have been velvet - I didn't know about or check for the C-shaped nucleus for many of the treatments) I've had success with copper or formalin-based products. TTM makes total sense based on the life cycle too, and I personally know people who have eliminated Cryptocaryon using it. Hyposalinity works because we know fish in freshwater don't get Crypt, and fish in saltwater don't get Ich. Historically I've seen Crypt reoccur more often with my copper treatments than my formalin treatments.

Getting back to the UV though....freshwater Ich is much easier to sterilize than Cryptocaryon. At least according to the published literature. However, there have been anecdotal reports of Crypt sterilization with lower doses, and I've seen some myself. Perhaps those cases turned out to be marine velvet, which is about as easy to sterilize as Ich, but there's something interesting about the trail of research. If you backtrack through references for the 280 mJ/cm2 dose, you'll find that it was never formally tested (if I missed a study, please tell me). It was extrapolated from the dose required for freshwater Ich, and as I recall this was back in the late '80s. So personally, I feel it may be possible to sterilize Crypt at a lower UV dose. I don't have any real data to back that up though. Just cases where the white spots disappeared after adding a UV that would not deliver 280 mJ/cm2.

Thank You very informative . Because I hate acronym's what is TTM ? Some how way before my venture into salt my cichlids which were all after a while tank bred one got ich . I did not do anything , and had no idea that this site existed fought it off by itself in short order . I defiantly wont tell Paul B ( I hope you read this Paul } as his head is big enough

 

[ReefED!]

I am looking to set up a new tank soon, 7-8ft, soft coral dominated with plenty of big, beautiful fish.
My absolute dream is a powder blue tang, but they obviously can be quite prone to parasites.

I have tried full quarantine before, and it never really worked longterm. We live quite close to the beach, and im worried that i have contaminated my quarantined setup before, and reintroduced ich etc, but maybe my quarantine system wasn't airtight!

Anecdotally, I have seen people around me have good success with powder blues (and other ich prone fish) in 6-8ft tanks, and they almost all seem to be running oversized UV systems. I have asked a few of these reefers, and get differing opinions. Some have told me they believe no sand (less surface area for parasite cysts?) and UV was a winning combo. Not sure if the sand part makes sense to me but happy to be proven wrong.

But yeah! what do we think gang? Can properly sized UV reliably keep a tank healthy?

I personally don't think so.

I've had an outbreak happen with an appropriately sized UV sterilizer.

The issue is:

1.) getting the right flow and wattage, some think that what's in the hobby is undersized
2.) where you run it from - when treating Ostreopsis dinos, sump based UV sterilizers don't seem to help - they have to be plumbed into DT. There may be similar issues with trying to manage crypto.

 

[allenk4]

Thank You very informative . Because I hate acronym's what is TTM ? Some how way before my venture into salt my cichlids which were all after a while tank bred one got ich . I did not do anything , and had no idea that this site existed fought it off by itself in short order . I defiantly wont tell Paul B ( I hope you read this Paul } as his head is big enough

You are in luck, TTM is not an acronym…..it’s an initialization

Tank Transfer Method

 

[Freenow54]

Thank You. The main problem here ie Canada or maybe just Ontario is that the Veterinarian society decided to lobby the Government in the name of Public Safety of course to have all medications for everything removed from pet stores . Where I used to be able to get medication for fish . Yes that is the key fish . I cant now not even a black market . I tried phoning a vet and explained my African Cichlids had Malawi bloat which of course they never heard of , and explained what I needed . They refused to see the fish which out of desperation I was willing to do. So They obviously don't really care about life at all , and are just greedy ........... So I found a way and unfortunately by the time I got it . Too late. I lost all 17 . The other issue is that I cannot just keep it around due to expiration dates . So a UV is my only hope. Chemical ways are not easy at all for above reasons .

 

[vlangel]

I definitely feel UV is important to treat and prevent pathogens. It's important to size it correctly though. I believe in oversized UV, meaning way higher wattage than what is typically recommended for your tank size. And you need to run water through it SLOWLY. I also believe in running it only intermittently. When first setting up a tank, I run it 24/7 for maybe a few months. Then I keep it turned off most of the time. Any time I add new fish to the tank, I run it for at least a few days if not a few weeks.
Now that my tank is 1 year old, I hardly ever run it. My fish are all spotless and fat, including a powder blue. I've kept achilles in perfect health in past systems using this same approach.
So, in summary: Oversize it and run it slow. You don't need to run it all the time, just with new fish or if problems pop up.
The reason I believe this approach works is because, as in nature, pathogens are always present, BUT, they are in very low concentrations. The fish can fight these pathogens with their own immune system as long as they aren't being constantly bombarded with them. The goal is to give them as low of concentration of pathogens in the water column as possible which mimics what they would be exposed to in nature. As long as you do everything else correct in terms of feeding and providing good conditions, they will have healthy immune systems capable of fighting off low levels of infection.
It's still very important to either quarantine or buy from vendors that do some degree of quarantine/pre-treatment for you. My LFS is good about pre-treating all incoming fish.

This has now become my new philosophy to manage ich. In 25+ years of reef keeping I have only had 2 major disease outbreaks. I have settled on managing ich as I personally struggled with the TTM. I do believe that TTM can work effectively but I just did not do well with it. One of my outbreaks of disease was in the early 2000s and then not again until recently; 3 weeks ago where I lost 8 fish out of 17, ( some who were 5+ years old.) It was painful but I know that I brought it on myself.

1. This 75g was only set up 6 months ago. Although all the rock and coral were transferred from the prior tank, it probably still was settling from the move.
2. I added about 7 more fish to those that came from the prior tank. I observe them in an acclimation net but did not QT.
3. I observed scratching and ignored it since I have seen that in the past and got away with it.
Lesson learned! Feeding fish well to build up gut health, trying to buy only healthy fish and then observing in acclimation before releasing in the display is not quite enough management.

I have a 20g in the cabinet of the 75g (I was considering a sump but changed my mind) and now I will make it a QT to (observe and treat with Prazipro) new fish for a month or so before putting in the display. This 20g has mature rock, sand and is a comfortable setting with hiding places as opposed to an austere QT. I also bought a 36 watt UV and plumbed it inline of my oversized canister filter (that filters the 75g) that can have variable flow, which I will slow down when I am ready to move fish from the QT to the 75g. I will also only have the bulb turned on when adding new fish.
I was somewhat managing disease for the 25+ years I have been keeping fish but these new measures should help me further reduce the risk of an event like I just went through.

 

[Paul B]

I follow Paul B , and his compadre Atoll I am going to start growing white worms , and copepods . I especially like the idea of copepods that is why I want to know

Don't listen to those two Jibonies. Just because they have the oldest, healthiest systems on this and every forum, they have no idea what they are talking about and are obviously just lucky.

Take it up with them . I rely on the accuracy of certain people. I would like nothing more than to learn they were wrong .

At 55 years old, my tank may crash today or next Tuesday because probably everything I do is totally wrong.

You mentioned that some people don’t QT and you associated that to mean they don’t believe ich can be eliminated.

LOL, people with successful non-quarantined old tanks don't want to eliminate ich. That's only for the quarantine crowd.

I defiantly wont tell Paul B ( I hope you read this Paul } as his head is big enough

Freenow, these types of threads make it even bigger.

 

[MasterClassReefs]

I am looking to set up a new tank soon, 7-8ft, soft coral dominated with plenty of big, beautiful fish.
My absolute dream is a powder blue tang, but they obviously can be quite prone to parasites.

I have tried full quarantine before, and it never really worked longterm. We live quite close to the beach, and im worried that i have contaminated my quarantined setup before, and reintroduced ich etc, but maybe my quarantine system wasn't airtight!

Anecdotally, I have seen people around me have good success with powder blues (and other ich prone fish) in 6-8ft tanks, and they almost all seem to be running oversized UV systems. I have asked a few of these reefers, and get differing opinions. Some have told me they believe no sand (less surface area for parasite cysts?) and UV was a winning combo. Not sure if the sand part makes sense to me but happy to be proven wrong.

But yeah! what do we think gang? Can properly sized UV reliably keep a tank healthy?

The key to successful UV treatment is exposure time ultimately and flow rate will help determine this. I plan to run a 40W UV/Ozone combo on my current 300 gallon build and chose this due to flow rate and exposure preferences.

 

[MasterClassReefs]

I recommend grabbing a copy of fish disease disgnosis and treatment by Edward J. Noga. Its been invaluable to me.

 

[sgdnycct]

You mentioned that some people don’t QT and you associated that to mean they don’t believe ich can be eliminated.

LOL, people with successful non-quarantined old tanks don't want to eliminate ich. That's only for the quarantine crowd.


To clarify, may point is that just because we choose not to QT doesn't mean we deny the biology and accept that ICH CAN be eliminated. I don't quarantine and feel the fish do better with the right combination of nutrition + environment. And I also fully understand the lifecycle of ICH and know how to eliminate it from my tank, If I chose to.

 

[Freenow54]

This has now become my new philosophy to manage ich. In 25+ years of reef keeping I have only had 2 major disease outbreaks. I have settled on managing ich as I personally struggled with the TTM. I do believe that TTM can work effectively but I just did not do well with it. One of my outbreaks of disease was in the early 2000s and then not again until recently; 3 weeks ago where I lost 8 fish out of 17, ( some who were 5+ years old.) It was painful but I know that I brought it on myself.

1. This 75g was only set up 6 months ago. Although all the rock and coral were transferred from the prior tank, it probably still was settling from the move.
2. I added about 7 more fish to those that came from the prior tank. I observe them in an acclimation net but did not QT.
3. I observed scratching and ignored it since I have seen that in the past and got away with it.
Lesson learned! Feeding fish well to build up gut health, trying to buy only healthy fish and then observing in acclimation before releasing in the display is not quite enough management.

I have a 20g in the cabinet of the 75g (I was considering a sump but changed my mind) and now I will make it a QT to (observe and treat with Prazipro) new fish for a month or so before putting in the display. This 20g has mature rock, sand and is a comfortable setting with hiding places as opposed to an austere QT. I also bought a 36 watt UV and plumbed it inline of my oversized canister filter (that filters the 75g) that can have variable flow, which I will slow down when I am ready to move fish from the QT to the 75g. I will also only have the bulb turned on when adding new fish.
I was somewhat managing disease for the 25+ years I have been keeping fish but these new measures should help me further reduce the risk of an event like I just went through.

I won a beautiful acclimation Tank . I cannot wrap my head around its purpose as it is still in the same water as the other fish so how does it prevent spreading disease if it is sick ?