Issues while using All for Reef and Kalk

[New9742]

Hi all and thanks for reading!

I've been having some issues with dropping Calcium and Magnesium and rising Alk despite dosing All for reef (A4R) and doing water changes as well.

My system is a 40 gallon cube with a 10 gallon (running volume) sump. In total after equipment, sand, and live rock is thrown in, I estimate to be around 40 gallons total system volume. I run the tank without any mechanical filtration save for a protein skimmer and using my refugium to filter large particles out from the water column. My ATO is hooked into a Tunze 5074 Calcium Dispenser that I refill weekly with 6 tsp of Kalk (On average I refill about 8-10 gal RODI/week I think). I have a medium-heavy bio load of fish in the tank.

I feed TDO pellets, hermit crab pellets, algae pellets (x2/day). I dose A4R daily, and dose 8ml live phyto daily. I broadcast feed AB+, reef chilli, spirulina, (sometimes a little reef roids) once a week or so. I dose Neo Nitro and/or Neo Phos as needed, but it isn't frequently.

Basically, I upgraded to this tank in 7/2024 and did 15 gal water changes the first 3 or 4 weeks before stopping. I tested my parameters weekly at the time. I had a low coral load and started using A4R at this time starting at 10ml/day. In October I added a large number of LPS coral, some SPS, and a handful of Zoas and a leather. The amount of coral I have comfortably fills in the rock I have in the tank and I would say I have a decent amount of LPS corals. Ultimately my A4R dosage leveled off at 15ml and I even started having an explosion of Coraline algae on my rocks and back glass. My Calcium and Magnesium (I test it since I have the kit, but I am aware of the general distrust in this test as it can vary wildly) have consistently trended downward while my Alk has trended up.

Around early December, I noticed negative changes in the tank. I have a branching montipora coral at the top of the tank that seems to have partially bleached and does not want to come back and is hovering somewhere around half-dead (however the plating monti off to the side and a few inches lower is doing well and is still showing some signs of slow growth). My few other SPS corals are still doing well and show positive signs of health (but very slow growth). One of my three torches bleached and the flesh band receded very far and I have skeleton showing on its base now (I moved it to a lower place in the tank and it is showing signs of slowly recovering, but it's still up in the air). My other torches, duncans, and candy canes all look good still and have even added some new heads). The green polyp leather I have (which I have kept for about 18 months now) is angry looking and hasn't extended its polyps at all in about 6 weeks now despite usually being big and open. Most of my Zoas are doing well, however some show signs of poor nutrition in the water while others are spreading out and happy. Lastly most of the coralline growing on my back glass went brown (though what was on my rocks has stayed purple, but has stopped growing). I thought I would try waiting it out and keep an eye on things, but nothing seemed to start to recover. I feed a little more to add some nutrients into the water and try to keep aminos in the water for the corals to grow/recover.

For the past 3 weeks, I have done 15 gallon water changes per week using Instant Ocean salt (same as always). I started with one, large 15 gallon change, and have since transitioned to partial changes throughout the week (typically 2.5 gal/day). I continued dosing 15 ml of A4R daily during this time in hopes to force my Calcium and Mag to raise at the same time, but it appears this isn't the case.

Overall, I would say my parameters are fairly stable, despite not being where people typically say they should be so I don't think that my problems are being caused by wild swings. With my consistently trending downward Calcium and Mag (with rising Alk) I'm not sure what to do. I've been considering dosing only Calcium and Magnesium from a supplement that isn't A4R. Is there any problem only dosing Reed Sea Calcium and Red Sea Magnesium to help increase levels while I continue dosing A4R at a lower amount (like 10 mls)? Any other suggestions from people? I appreciate any help or advice. My head hurts from the number of forums I've tried reading through to solve this on my own and could really use some good help/guidance to focus my efforts on.

Happy to give any more details if they're requested. TIA!


My average November parameters are:
Temp: 77.7
Alk: 10-9.5
Calcium: 400>390
Magnesium: 1290>1260>1230
Salinity: 1.025
NO3: 0>5
PO4: .25


My average December parameters are:
Temp: 77.5
Alk: 11
Calcium: 380
Magnesium: 1230
Salinity: 1.025
NO3: 0<5
PO4: .25 < .50

My January parameters so far are:
Temp: 77.5
Alk: 13.1
Calcium: 380
Magnesium: 1200
Salinity: 1.025
NO3: 0-5
PO4: .5

 

[rishma]

I find calcium test kits not very reliable (for me). And Magnesium test kits are not very reliable for anybody. I don’t test either except occasionally with ICP. Calcium and magnesium consumption are predicable based off alkalinity consumption, which can be tested more accurately at home.

For each 2.8 dKH of alkalinity consumed, about 18-20 ppm calcium and 1-2 ppm magnesium are also consumed.

Both all for reef and kalkwasser provide excess calcium. Calcium actually rises in the tank over time. There is about 10% excess calcium for each alkalinity part dosed.

Your AFR provides all the magnesium you need for its alkalinity. Kalkwasser doesn’t provide any magnesium. You can dose 1-2 ppm magnesium for each 2.8dkh alkalinity provided by the kalkwasser and magnesium will stay in a good range.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree, both kalkwasser and AFR are slightly over dosing calcium relative to alk.

I don’t think zoanthids care about calcium, at least not exact values.

What salt mix for water changes? Ever measure the alk and calcium in it?

 

[New9742]

Sorry for the delayed response, I work nights.

I should have mentioned that besides the pH boost in a closed off house in AZ, the other reason I keep dosing the kalk was for the little bit of extra Calcium. The amount of Kalk that actually gets used/dosed into my tank is really an unknown and varies a little week to week depending on my evaporation rate. I'm not even sure if the 6tsps of Kalk I put into the Tunze doser are fully utilized every week or not between refills-it just seemed like a good number for me, I guess. Also, if it matters, I use a combination of Red Sea (NO3, Alk double check, and pH), Hanna for Alk, and Salifert test kits (Salifert for Ca, Mg, and PO4).

On my last parameter test here a couple of days ago, I took a sample of water straight to my LFS and they tested Ca at the same levels I did using an API kit. And in all fairness, they told me my Alk was a little closer to 12 on API and my salinity was 1.022 (I use a refractometer and had just calibrated it with Brightwell solution so I'm not sure why they had 1.022 to my 1.025. I may just need a new refractometer). There was no Mg test.

Even though I have the excess Calcium being dosed into my tank, it apparently just doesn't seem to be enough from the Kalk and A4R. I was hoping that by doing water changes (and to answer your previous question, I use plain old Instant Ocean salt as I always have) and by dosing a little extra A4R with them, I could slowly shift my parameters back up, drop my Alk a little, and get my numbers more where I want them (~10 dKH, 450 Ca, and 1400+ Mg). My Ca and Mg still seem to still be dropping with Alk increasing, despite a subjective lack of growth in my tank.

I did no think to test my fresh salt water before, but I went ahead and did it for this post real quick. At my measured salinity of 1.025 (which should still be 1.022 according to my LFS and their Milwaukee salinity reader), my Alk is at 9.8 my Ca is at ~340, and my Mg is at ~1000 which appears to be a big part of my problem here and why my numbers are doing what they despite my attempts to change them. I just assumed the numbers provided by Instant Ocean that at a salinity of 1.026 would have 400 Ca and 1320 Mg would be pretty close to what I have. It seems my problem may actually be that I am mixing my salt water at a much lower salinity than I thought and that these water changes aren't doing the help I assumed they would.

If that is indeed the case, should I be trying to raise my fresh salt water Ca and Mg before doing water changes and let the parameters stabilize to what I want that way? Should I try to dose to my main display and leave the fresh salt mix as is? Both? Should I change salt mixes entirely, and if so, to what would you recommend I look at as an option? Should I continue to use A4R while doing any of that? Or is there a different suggestion entirely? I would ideally like to go back to no water changes and just continue A4R dosing at some point with maybe some supplementation as needed vs constant dosing.

Thanks again for any input you may have!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’d raise the salinity to bring up calcium, and dose less kalk to let alk de line (if you want it lower). Also, IO is a bit overbalanced with high alk and lower calcium, so you may need to bring up the calcium.

 

[New9742]

Thank you so much for the input and tip on IO's Alk and Ca balance! Definitely going to take what you have said and use it.

I'll start looking at lowering my Kalk dosing by half every week and I'll look at fixing my salinity inconsistency so that everything comes up naturally. In the mean time, I'll continue the water changes too as I've been doing them, but I think I'm going to start directly supplementing Ca to my fresh salt water with either Red Sea Reef Foundation A or Tropic Marin Balling A in addition. I'll also lower my A4R dosage to 10ml/day to help keep my trace elements and Mg up without boosting Alk and Ca in addition. I may choose to also directly supplement Mg to my fresh salt water with Red Sea Foundation C if that doesn't seem to be doing enough on its own. Hopefully this helps all 3 come back to where I want them.

 

[rishma]

Thank you so much for the input and tip on IO's Alk and Ca balance! Definitely going to take what you have said and use it.

I'll start looking at lowering my Kalk dosing by half every week and I'll look at fixing my salinity inconsistency so that everything comes up naturally. In the mean time, I'll continue the water changes too as I've been doing them, but I think I'm going to start directly supplementing Ca to my fresh salt water with either Red Sea Reef Foundation A or Tropic Marin Balling A in addition. I'll also lower my A4R dosage to 10ml/day to help keep my trace elements and Mg up without boosting Alk and Ca in addition. I may choose to also directly supplement Mg to my fresh salt water with Red Sea Foundation C if that doesn't seem to be doing enough on its own. Hopefully this helps all 3 come back to where I want them.

It will be interesting to test your freshly mixed saltwater before and after calcium and magnesium additions to see if you detect the addition you expect based on your dose.

 

[New9742]

It will be interesting to test your freshly mixed saltwater before and after calcium and magnesium additions to see if you detect the addition you expect based on your dose.

I'll do that and post my results in the interest of science ha ha.