It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Ento-Reefer]

I think quarantine is a necessary procedure at least in the beginning of stocking a new tank. Having started tanks both ways now, I see that there are potential issues with both methods. What I am thinking is that the quarantine should be in a more natural tank where the fish can observed for a month or two. Maybe meds don’t even need to be dosed. The fish should be fed with live and frozen foods, and also the natural foods allowed to grow within the tank.

If you decide to prophylactically treat for every possible parasite then you have to go all in and continue this practice. In addition, you must quarantine anything and everything wet that you add to the tank because if you don’t you could very well be screwed. I have read so many threads where people have qt all fish only to lose their whole tank a few months later due to adding a coral or snail. This point was brought up by Hummblefish in that he said if you buy qt and conditioned fish from me and then don’t qt corals or other inverts you are wasting your time. This is the reasoning that brought me to this thread. I can’t guarantee that I would not add a parasite inadvertently later on so I would rather equip my fish to the best of my ability to be able to fight. Having ozone and or a properly sized UV running can’t hurt either.

I think some people have a blue thumb when it comes to running a reef or keeping fish, and this certainly has a role in their successes or failures. I am glad that I have been exposed to both types of methodologies as I continue to learn from both.

 

[Brew12]

I am glad that I have been exposed to both types of methodologies as I continue to learn from both.

+1 on this. As a dedicated follower of QT practices I still enjoy helping people who want to try relying on the fishes immune system.

The only time I get frustrated is when people don't accept that they are both total systems. If you go QT, you need to go all in with it. You are not going to have a great chance at success if you QT fish but don't QT inverts/coral. If you want immune fish, you need to go all in. Don't think you can feed your fish flakes every other day and have a pristine looking tank while still boosting your fishes natural immunity.

 

[Gareth elliott]

There is an analogue to Paul's ecosystem approach in the freshwater side of the hobby. Freshwater fish-only tanks tend to encounter many health issues (at least early on), but fish in a planted tank almost never get sick. Why that is I can only theorize, but it is a reproducible result. After I started densely planting my tanks, I never had to use a medication again.

In freshwater i find the most important is getting good fish.

So many people have issues with “difficult fish” on forums. But some of these fish, blue rams come to mind, are so overly inbred that no one can keep alive after the ordeal of shipping them from a Thai breeding facility. Where you hear almost no issues about f1 or f2 in a properly setup tank.

That being said are one of the only fw fish ive treat for ich with more than temperature and salt.

As to a planted aquaria.
I think a densely planted tank also benefits from lower ammonia. My planted tanks ph keeps most of the ammonia as ammonium and what build up does occur is quickly absorbed by the plants. I actually have to dose n, p, and k. This balanced nutrient environment i believe positively affects the fishes’ immune response.

My theory anyway.

 

[Paul B]

I need to ask a question and I don't mean it to be a statement, argument, incitement for an argument, discussion about Global Warming or anything else. I am just researching for my own knowledge.
Does anyone on here, or did you ever hear of salt water fish spawning "and" raising the fry to maturity or almost maturity in a fully quarantined tank where everything was quarantined so no live foods can be used. Not clownfish. I am trying to find out if the fry will survive as I think they will not have an immune system but I am only guessing as I have no idea. Not rumors that you heard from someone, who heard from someone who sweeps the floor in Buckingham palace every other Tuesday.

Maybe gobies, pipefish, bleenies, grammas, seahorses, cardinals. wrasses etc. Just curious.

 

[Brew12]

Does anyone on here, or did you ever hear of salt water fish spawning "and" raising the fry to maturity or almost maturity in a fully quarantined tank where everything was quarantined so no live foods can be used.

I disagree that fully quarantined means no live food can be used. For instance, all of the phytoplankton and pods from Algae Barn are raised in fishless systems so are safe to add to a QT'd tank.

I believe U of F followed strict QT protocols for their Regal Tang breeding program. I also believe ORA uses strict QT practices for all of their fish breeding. I'm trying to see if I can get verification on either or both.

 

[Gareth elliott]

I need to ask a question and I don't mean it to be a statement, argument, incitement for an argument, discussion about Global Warming or anything else. I am just researching for my own knowledge.
Does anyone on here, or did you ever hear of salt water fish spawning "and" raising the fry to maturity or almost maturity in a fully quarantined tank where everything was quarantined so no live foods can be used. Not clownfish. I am trying to find out if the fry will survive as I think they will not have an immune system but I am only guessing as I have no idea. Not rumors that you heard from someone, who heard from someone who sweeps the floor in Buckingham palace every other Tuesday.

Maybe gobies, pipefish, bleenies, grammas, seahorses, cardinals. wrasses etc. Just curious.

Theres stories of clown fry surviving without rotifers? Question of curiosity, every story ive read of not keeping a constant supply of rotifers always ended in failure.

 

[Paul B]

I disagree that fully quarantined means no live food can be used. For instance, all of the phytoplankton and pods from Algae Barn are raised in fishless systems so are safe to add to a QT'd tank.

I believe U of F followed strict QT protocols for their Regal Tang breeding program. I also believe ORA uses strict QT practices for all of their fish breeding. I'm trying to see if I can get verification on either or both.

Let me rephraise that. I am not talking about parasites. If they are eating live foods, there is bacteria in it. All live foods will have gut bacteria in them. If they have no live bacteria, they can't live because it's the bacteria in the gut that digests the food..

So i am asking if anyone has heard of fish besides clownfish, that spawn and grow the young without the parents eating live food.
Rotifers have bacteria in them. I would like to know if the fry can grow if no live bacteria is fed to the parents. I am not sure about parasites but I do know the fry will not be immune to parisites if the parents have no immunity to them. I also have no idea what ORA uses.

 

[Lasse]

Off topic again, sorry... but this happened yesterday [emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]

Congratulations

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brwaldbaum]

As to a planted aquaria.
I think a densely planted tank also benefits from lower ammonia. My planted tanks ph keeps most of the ammonia as ammonium and what build up does occur is quickly absorbed by the plants. I actually have to dose n, p, and k. This balanced nutrient environment i believe positively affects the fishes’ immune response.

My theory anyway.

This is true, but plants also play host to a diverse array of microfauna, some of which may regard fish pathogens as irresistibly delicious.

 

[MnFish1]

There is an analogue to Paul's ecosystem approach in the freshwater side of the hobby. Freshwater fish-only tanks tend to encounter many health issues (at least early on), but fish in a planted tank almost never get sick. Why that is I can only theorize, but it is a reproducible result. After I started densely planting my tanks, I never had to use a medication again.

Well. One explanation is that keeping a tank with plants properly requires a lot more proficiency and experience than just keeping fish in a tank.

 

[MnFish1]

There is an analogue to Paul's ecosystem approach in the freshwater side of the hobby. Freshwater fish-only tanks tend to encounter many health issues (at least early on), but fish in a planted tank almost never get sick. Why that is I can only theorize, but it is a reproducible result. After I started densely planting my tanks, I never had to use a medication again.

Well. One explanation is that keeping a tank with plants properly requires a lot more proficiency and experience than just keeping fish in a tank.

 

[MnFish1]

I disagree with this and the guy who discovered this did it in a lab and probably doesn't have a fish tank. I am sure their studies lasted a few months. And added bacteria if it is more virulent will take over other bacteria. Individual bacteria don't have a long lifespan and constantly change.

Bacteria do constantly change but once bacteria is established it is not easily taken over by other strains. If a bacterium dies there are hundreds to replace it. Quarantined tanks are not nor ever will be sterile. I think this is a major misconception.

There is my tank which is very old and immune. I know that is circumstantial evidence, but it proves it is not harmful.

Except you have said yourself that your chemistries is nitrates etc are not conducive to growing certain kinds of hard corals etc. Thus the method is harmful to some organisms that many here want to keep.

show me older, healthier fish that are spawning, not clowns that quarantine. Healthy fish are always full of eggs. Fish fry get their immunity from their Mother. If their Mother has no immunity, neither does their babies and they will have a very hard time reaching adulthood.

Fish fry do not get all of their immunity from their mother. The have their own innate immune system that is nonspecific. There is also something me transfer if antibody within the yolk of the mother has been recently sick. As they are exposed to diffeeent things they developed cellular and humoral immunity many fry die of infection

It's Mythology if you don't do it properly but all our fish in the sea are immune.

Only the fish that survive the disease are immune. The ones that died from the disease are not...

Have a great day and don't feel I am argueing with you. I would like to sit down with you over a glass of Grand marnier and discuss this further. (you buy)

I also don’t take it as an argument. I was only stating that lots of people breed and raise fish commercially without using your method. This you can’t say that because fish spawn in your tank that your method is somehow better. In fact I find it suboptimal because if you take a fish and add it to your tank full of pathogens to which it is not immune there is a risk. Making a tank ich or velvet free does not make it bacteria free or sterile as you seem to imoly

 

[MnFish1]

Duplicate

 

[MnFish1]

Does anyone on here, or did you ever hear of salt water fish spawning "and" raising the fry to maturity or almost maturity in a fully quarantined tank where everything was quarantined so no live foods can be used. Not clownfish. I am trying to find out if the fry will survive as I think they will not have an immune system but I am only guessing as I have no idea.

My impression is that most marine fish fry are released as plankton. Including clownfish after the eggs hatch and are not cared for or fed by the parents.

 

[Paul B]

Bacteria do constantly change but once bacteria is established it is not easily taken over by other strains. If a bacterium dies there are hundreds to replace it.

Actually they do which is why they are now transplanting gut bacteria (in poop) from healthy people to people with bowel problems.

Except you have said yourself that your chemistries is nitrates etc are not conducive to growing certain kinds of hard corals etc. Thus the method is harmful to some organisms that many here want to keep.

It is true my parameters are a mess, but that is not my system and I don't advocate to do that. That is just because I am very busy with other things and I don't have the time to remedy that. In my new house I will fix that. I would like my nitrates to be about 20, not 160 as they are now.

Fish fry do not get all of their immunity from their mother. The have their own innate immune system that is nonspecific

True, but they get their immunity to parasites and disease pathogens from their Mother but only if she was exposed to those things.
I asked that question because I still want to know if anyone on here raises fish in a quarantined tank and the fry survive. I really don't know.

Only the fish that survive the disease are immune. The ones that died from the disease are not...

True, but in the sea fish eat fish at every meal so they all have been exposed to pathogens and parasites

I also don’t take it as an argument. I was only stating that lots of people breed and raise fish commercially without using your method. This you can’t say that because fish spawn in your tank that your method is somehow better. In fact I find it suboptimal because if you take a fish and add it to your tank full of pathogens to which it is not immune there is a risk. Making a tank ich or velvet free does not make it bacteria free or sterile as you seem to imply

I have heard that "lots" of people breed fish without using my method but I haven't seen one yet. My "method" is just to not quarantine and feed live food or at least food that is fresh or has living bacteria and pathogens in it so the fishes immune system can recognize it and stay immune.
I would imagine fry would survive if they were put in a quarantined system and never exposed to diseases. But that is not natural and harmful to the fish as it has no immunity from just about anything. So "if" those fry survive and breed (if that is possible) their offspring will also have no immune system. But does anyone on here, with a home tank have a quarantined system where the fry live and grow to adulthood. Not a commercial breeder who maybe add antibiotics or go to extraordinary measures to accomplish that. "A home tank" like we all have. As I keep saying healthy fish are always full of eggs.

.

 

[Gweeds1980]

There is an analogue to Paul's ecosystem approach in the freshwater side of the hobby. Freshwater fish-only tanks tend to encounter many health issues (at least early on), but fish in a planted tank almost never get sick. Why that is I can only theorize, but it is a reproducible result. After I started densely planting my tanks, I never had to use a medication again.

The answer to this is relatively simple. Plants produce h2o2 as a byproduct of photosynthesis, we know h2o2 kills free swimming parasites, algae and bacteria. More plants = more h2o2 = less 'bad stuff' (and good stuff for that matter).

If you keep a well stocked fuge and can measure ORP you can see this in action by measuring the ORP in the fuge vs ORP in the display.

It's also why moving a sick fish to the sump often results in the fish making a recovery... this is almost always attributed to the skill of the aquarist for acting in time, the fish not being subject to the 'stresses' of the display tank or some other made up reason. Frankly if your fish are less stressed living in a filter than they are in our best attempts at their actual habitat, there is something very wrong with your scape and / or your stocking policy!

 

[Lasse]

The answer to this is relatively simple. Plants produce h2o2 as a byproduct of photosynthesis, we know h2o2 kills free swimming parasites, algae and bacteria. More plants = more h2o2 = less 'bad stuff' (and good stuff for that matter).

If you keep a well stocked fuge and can measure ORP you can see this in action by measuring the ORP in the fuge vs ORP in the display.

It's also why moving a sick fish to the sump often results in the fish making a recovery... this is almost always attributed to the skill of the aquarist for acting in time, the fish not being subject to the 'stresses' of the display tank or some other made up reason. Frankly if your fish are less stressed living in a filter than they are in our best attempts at their actual habitat, there is something very wrong with your scape and / or your stocking policy!

Do not want to be fussy - but are you sure it's H2O2 that is produced and not free oxygen radicals (O) ? I have always learned that but it could be wrong.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Brew12]

Frankly if your fish are less stressed living in a filter than they are in our best attempts at their actual habitat, there is something very wrong with your scape and / or your stocking policy!

I don't know very many aquarists that try to keep reef systems that look like reefs. Lasse and Paul are 2 of very few that I know of. My sump, with its mud bottom and algae, is likely a better representation of a reef than my DT. My DT is an idealized representation of a reef and unlike anything I have ever seen in the ocean.

 

[Paul B]

I dove a few days ago in the Caribbean, I always try to make my tank look natural. The place I dove was full of algae and seaweeds, the tangs were constant smiling. I put this codium in my tank in the summer as I think it is very cool looking. I collect it in the Atlantic but it only lives a few months. This picture was many years ago and I think my tank looked the most natural then.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Do not want to be fussy - but are you sure it's H2O2 that is produced and not free oxygen radicals (O) ? I have always learned that but it could be wrong.

Sincerely Lasse

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17325747/