Thanks - do you have any references about macro algae will release H2O2 into the water ?
Sincerely Lasse
Sincerely Lasse
It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)
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OP
OP
I hope this one works... https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...#v=onepage&q=macroalgae produces h2o2&f=false
OP
OP
Agreed, but the sump is also full of strange noises and vibrations which would surely have an adverse effect on the fishes sensory system?
Mine (I think) is fairly reefy... I know that if I removed my algae eaters the stuff would grow everywhere, just like the reef. Everything has a wonderful covering of biomass... no bare rocks in here!
The sunken ship, is obviously not natural lol.
Does the full text go into detail on the amounts produced or how much is released from the plants into the environment?
Paul B
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I have always said seaweed or algae is very healthy for a reef and my tank was always the healthiest when I had a cycle of algae. I did some diving last week off a tiny Island named Mustique an the reefs were very healthy and filled with seaweed.
In between the corals was a "lawn" of algae.
In between the corals was a "lawn" of algae.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
Vibrations carry so well through water I'm not sure it matters how close they are to the source unless in an absolutely massive system.
I agree, yours doesn't have the maturity of Paul's or Lasse's but it looks like that is what you are striving for.
What's not natural about sunken ships? Are you suggesting that sunken ships don't make good artificial reefs?
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/pdf/reefs/reef_guide.pdf
Page 6 and 9 talk about the artificial reefs they have have deployed in my home state. Not really on the scientific level like a lot of the posts here but interesting still.
Page 6 and 9 talk about the artificial reefs they have have deployed in my home state. Not really on the scientific level like a lot of the posts here but interesting still.
OP
OP
I believe that is a spotted trunkfish (Lactophrys bicaudalis).
Yes it works - thank you - the page of interest in this case was not blanked out. Very interesting and the research are relatively recent. Have you done any measurements by your self according to ORP level in DT contra fuge?
Sincerely Lasse
I doubt that because the article only deal with terrestrial plants. I could not seen any detail of amount of H2O2 released on the surface of the leaves but I only read it briefly.
Sincerely Lasse
OP
OP
I haven't, no. I don't have anything with which to measure ORP. One of my more forward thinking LFS showed me the difference (I forget the measurements) and it was significant. They were trying to see if this could be used to aid filtration in any way, I don't think they got far down that route though.
MnFish1
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Agree with this. But the logic escapes me on one point. Let’s say I have an immune tank. Ie Not quarantined. I want to add new fish corals etc. if the new items carry something to which the current inhabitants are not immune the tank inhabitants are at risk. Additionally if the new fish are not immune to the strains of parasites on the tank they are at risk. Ie putting a new fish into an immune tank does not make it instantly immune. It had to be exposed and be infected to develope immunity
Wouldn’t the stronger immune systems of the tank inhabitants better suit them for any new inoculations.
Poor examples as nothing similar to fish lol.
But Edward Jenner’s discovery of the small pox vaccine was from observation of those previously inoculated with cow pox were immune to small pox.
Or the deadly nature of certain viruses or bacteria on immune compromised individuals, vs a relatively benign in healthy individuals. Ie Cat scratch disease.
MnFish1
10K Club member
The amount of h2o2 produced by plants may help the plant avoid disease but I doubt the concentration in the water itself is anywhere near enough to kill free swimming bacteria or parasites. H2o2 and free oxygen radicals damage gills skin etc in high enough concentration. Lastly. H2o2 is nearly instantaneously changed into water and o2 in an alkaline environment
MnFish1
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Yes. I was more talking about adding new fish and their fate. Plus it still seems like it’s playing Russian roulette if you current tank mates have not been exposed to something the new fish has.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
This is definitely a risk. When adding a new fish that isn't immune to a system it can cause a rapid increase in parasite numbers in the case of ich or velvet due to the "niave" host becoming available. The new fish does have a few things working for it. Hopefully, the caretaker is running something along the lines of ozone or UV to help limit numbers. The hobbyist should be providing the same stable and appropriate care for the fish that allowed the original fish to gain/keep their immunity . The immune fish will also act as decoys to help spread out the infestation and prevent it from concentrating on the new fish. Just like people, not every fish will develop an immunity to everything it is exposed to. The fish will either make it, or it won't.
I wondered the same thing on concentrations. In order to achieve 24ppm co2 i have to pump quiet a lot of co2 into an aquarium. H202 is not that drastically different in size that in order to achieve and biocidal concentration this would mean a similar quantity and regularity. As like stated it is not very stable. Not a chemist so could be very wrong on that assumption.
That being said there are health benefits to some terrestrial plants. Like an indoor ficus tree shows measurable uptake of airborne household formaldehyde, aquatic plants in enough concentration may assist in avoidance of accumulation of heavy metals copper, molybdenum and zinc come to mind.
Last bit is all based on a single study i read on cat tails effect on a polluted Mexican watershed on migrating bird reproduction.
Paul B
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If I buy a new fish and it is not obviously dying which I got for free, In all the years I have been keeping new fish I don't remember ever losing a fish to a disease that it got from anything in my tank. Like never. They should have, but they don't and I am not sure of the exact mechanism as to why that happens. Remember I am not talking about 10 or 15 years here as that wouldn't prove anything. Maybe it's the food I supply or something to do with my water chemistry. I would be guessing if I posted something. But if none of them have gotten sick in 40 years, it must be something. I have a large, old copperband butterfly that I got as a baby and added him right in. I probably got him right from the shipping bag at the dealer because I get a lot of my fish that way, but not all of them. He was tiny and copperbands seem to be, by many accounts a delicate fish. No problem. All my bleenies and gobies are also a delicate species, no problem and they all die of old age as do most of my pipefish and all of my bluestripe pipefish. You can go back in my many years old thread and see when I got all my fish and when they died. None from disease. I posted many times stories with pictures of me adding fish with obvious parasites all over them. You may not understand how I could do that, but that doesn't change the fact that I can and do do it all the time. Disease is a non event for me and I feel it is a shame more people let their fish get sick, then try to cure them rather than just make it so they don't get sick. I don't understand that at all.
As for that Russian Roulette thing, I think we can rule that out because the gun they use for that game has 6 shots in it so it is a one in six way to lose (or win) I have added dozens of fish with no problems.
I do know how my existing fish do not get sick from any new additions. They seem to be immune from "everything" . You will say, that it is impossible for that to be true, and yet it is. People have been saying things are impossible for centuries and here we are. The world isn't flat, we went to the moon and Myley Cyrus became a star. But eventually many of those impossible things come to pass. They pass even to the people who don't believe it or understand it.
The Pope excommunicated Galaliao because he built this telescope and saw that the Earth wasn't flat. The Pope could have looked through the telescope and saw for himself, but he was afraid he would find out he was wrong and couldn't understand that so the world remained flat for many years.
Just because we can't or won't believe something even if it is proven doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I have many times shown pictures of my fish spawning but have still yet to see even one fish except clowns that spawn and the fry grew in a fully quarantined tank. Healthy fish always spawn, it's just what they do. Healthy fish also always only die of old age or jumping out, thats what they do. Immune fish "never" get sick, never. Thats just life. It even happens if we don't understand it.
I can say something like Humans can't live longer than 125 years. It' may not be a scientific fact because it is hard to prove a negative, but if in three million years the oldest Human (recorded) only lived to 122 years, I will consider that a fact. (Not counting Moses as I wasn't there)
And I can assume I won't live that long.Here is my method, fish eating healthy food with living bacteria in it. Mostly clams that I bought live. This is a very hard system.
(that red fireclown is maybe 27 years old and his mate is maybe 20, they spawn every few days but I don't consider that anything because they are clowns and will spawn in wet cardboard)
OP
OP
It's been shown that dosing h2o2 directly to the water kills the free swimming stage of cryptocaryon at least. This is exactly how polyp lab medic works - except with peroxide salts. It takes approximately 48 hours for h2o2 to degrade to h2o and o2. The whole point of plants using h2o2 as a defence is that it kills bacteria and parasites before they can damage the plant.
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