Lanthanum Chloride toxicity question

DrMMI

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
386
Reaction score
167
Using Phosphate-E from Brightwell here.. used up to 10ml a day for a while but down to normally 1-2ml per day now on a doser. Never noticed any issues with my fish and have multiple Zebrasoma tangs which people claim are sensitive . For a while I dosed into a filter sock but gave that up and run it directly into my skimmer body now, have been doing that for the last few months with great success.
How did you dose it directly into your skimmer body? I tried taking the cap of my cup off and dripping it down the neck, but then my skimmer always goes crazy. I end up having to dose into my overflow box, but it doesn't reduce the phosphate anywhere near as much as I expect it to.
 

Quietman

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
May 14, 2017
Messages
2,581
Reaction score
10,073
Location
Indiana - born and bred
I've never seen any useful data on the toxicity of lanthanum at the levels typically encountered in reef aquaria.

FWIW, lanthanum is dosed to people to bind phosphate at multi gram levels per day, with minimal detectable issues.
Things that make you Google....this is the best snippet of information I've seen in days. ;)
 

josephxsxn

Mixed Reef Peninsula
View Badges
Joined
Jul 25, 2020
Messages
671
Reaction score
606
Location
Michigan
How did you dose it directly into your skimmer body? I tried taking the cap of my cup off and dripping it down the neck, but then my skimmer always goes crazy. I end up having to dose into my overflow box, but it doesn't reduce the phosphate anywhere near as much as I expect it to.

I run the line through my skimmer cup cap into the body.

The post I am linking in my build thread with photos was when I used to dilute my lanthium chloride and I have since stopped doing that. I found it works much better pure/straight (for Brightwell Phosphate-E anyway) and only using 1 or 2 milliliters a day rather than having a high number of diluted milliliters spread out throughout the day.. I believe but cannot prove that this is because the lanthium and the RO water was separating over time... I would have periods where I would reduce my phosphates greatly and then nothing would happen the next week even though lots of the solution remained... This stopped once I stopped diluting the lanthium chloride and just started using it straight (pure) but at a lower amount...

Today if I'm using 1 ml spread it over 2 intervals in 24 hours so a half milliliter every 12 hours dosed... If I go up to 2 ml then I spread it over 4 intervals.. today I don't have a proper balance between 1 and 2 milliliters of the phosphate-e.. so I find myself dosing 2 ml until it's very low and converting to 1 ml until it raises where I'm willing to go back to 2 so I don't bottom out at 0 ppm phospahtes.

 

hans4811

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 30, 2019
Messages
270
Reaction score
245
Location
Jax, FL
After watching this vid from Melev on dosing Phosphate Rx, which hes been using for over 10 years with no side effects, i started using it as well. Simple, effective way of controlling P04. Dose it maybe once every week to 10 days or so. Honestly don’t know why more people don’t use it
 

TallsReefer

New Member
View Badges
Joined
May 3, 2016
Messages
1
Reaction score
1
Location
FlKeys
Ive used it for years, dose it straight into the tank, have only ever used 100 micron filter socks, ph is always 8.25 -8.5, have all kinds of variety of animals, tangs, feather dusters, sponges, crabs, corals, shrimp, etc… never had a single problem except for loosing a clam which I’m not sure if it had anything to do with the Lanth dosing but I suspect it did.
 
Top Shelf Aquatics

schooncw

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
489
Reaction score
326
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Ive used it for years, dose it straight into the tank, have only ever used 100 micron filter socks, ph is always 8.25 -8.5, have all kinds of variety of animals, tangs, feather dusters, sponges, crabs, corals, shrimp, etc… never had a single problem except for loosing a clam which I’m not sure if it had anything to do with the Lanth dosing but I suspect it did.
How exactly? Diluted? Am thinking of dripping it right into the return or sock of my overstocked and overfed 120. Tank looks great but PO is regularly around 1.5….any idea how many drops I should start with?
 

tehmadreefer

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Marketplace Rating
Joined
Oct 3, 2018
Messages
3,474
Reaction score
4,438
How exactly? Diluted? Am thinking of dripping it right into the return or sock of my overstocked and overfed 120. Tank looks great but PO is regularly around 1.5….any idea how many drops I should start with?
3 drops of seaklear LC in the overflow or sump where the skimmer is.
 

Dkeller_nc

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Messages
887
Reaction score
1,209
There is an analogous situation to LaCl2 that exists with the element barium. Free ionic barium is highly toxic - one 55 gallon drum of the right molecular compound containing barium would be enough to poison a city's water supply.

Yet, certain other forms of barium are utterly safe, and are frequently given directly to people for various medical purposes. In this case, that form is barium sulfate. The reason that barium isn't toxic as barium sulfate has to do with its solubility. Barium chloride is toxic. In fact, hugely toxic. That's because barium chloride is pretty water soluble (around 300 grams per liter), and thus is bio-available to cause toxic effects. In contrast, barium sulfate is not appreciably soluble in water - around 2 mg per liter and approximately 150,000 times less soluble in this ionic form than the chloride.

So even though barium is really toxic as the metallic element or as a water soluble compound, the sulfate form is safe to handle and can be dosed to people as an x-ray contrast agent.

In the case of lanthanum, it is possible that the metallic element (or a soluble ionic form) is toxic to aquatic life. But the bottom line is that lanthanum dosed as the chloride form into seawater is rapidly (as in less than a second) converted to lanthanum phosphate (if appreciable phosphate exists) or lanthanum sulfate if phosphate has been depleted in the water.

Randy is quite correct (as always) that the absolute toxicity of the metallic element Lanthanum is poorly studied and may or may not have toxicity effects on aquatic organisms. But even if it did have toxic effects in an absolute sense, it's just not available in a form that allows for toxic effects when added to seawater.
 

Quietman

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
May 14, 2017
Messages
2,581
Reaction score
10,073
Location
Indiana - born and bred
I use it regularly on my 34 gallon. From 0.2 ppm to .03 ppm I use 10 drops after lights out (10 - 11 pm and fish are resting) - ends up .02 to .05 ppm the next morning. when I first started I did half that two consecutive days checking in between. Dose it into sump (no where special). Never used the small micron socks - just sponge filter.

I also use this site to double check my calc. Great to have folks creating calculators.

Phosphate Remover Calculator
 
https://www.youtube.com/c/ReefStache

Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
44,799
Reaction score
33,645
Location
Arlington, Massachusetts, United States
I use it regularly on my 34 gallon. From 0.2 ppm to .03 ppm I use 10 drops after lights out (10 - 11 pm and fish are resting) - ends up .02 to .05 ppm the next morning. when I first started I did half that two consecutive days checking in between. Dose it into sump (no where special). Never used the small micron socks - just sponge filter.

I also use this site to double check my calc. Great to have folks creating calculators.

Phosphate Remover Calculator

FWIW, such calculators using lanthanum for phosphate reduction are, at best, estimates, and will normally overestimate the effect, sometimes massively, due to some lanthanum not precipitating as lanthanum phosphate (but as carbonate or other materials) and due tot eh huge reservoir of phosphate bound to rock and sand in most systems, which tends to redissolve when the phosphate concentration is lowered.
 

Quietman

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
May 14, 2017
Messages
2,581
Reaction score
10,073
Location
Indiana - born and bred
FWIW, such calculators using lanthanum for phosphate reduction are, at best, estimates, and will normally overestimate the effect, sometimes massively, due to some lanthanum not precipitating as lanthanum phosphate (but as carbonate or other materials) and due tot eh huge reservoir of phosphate bound to rock and sand in most systems, which tends to redissolve when the phosphate concentration is lowered.
Things that make you go "oh crap, what did I say wrong"....when that message pops up - "Randy Holmes-Farley has quoted your post... " :)

Agree, my tank was newer - it was very close for me.

I only start with half of any additive recommendation based on thumb rules (and have always recommended that to everyone) until I see how my tank responds.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
44,799
Reaction score
33,645
Location
Arlington, Massachusetts, United States
Things that make you go "oh crap, what did I say wrong"....when that message pops up - "Randy Holmes-Farley has quoted your post... " :)

Agree, my tank was newer - it was very close for me.

I only start with half of any additive recommendation based on thumb rules (and have always recommended that to everyone) until I see how my tank responds.

lol

The calculators are certainly useful to prevent overdosing, and as a starting dose. I'd then adjust by trial and error. . :)
 

schooncw

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
489
Reaction score
326
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I use it regularly on my 34 gallon. From 0.2 ppm to .03 ppm I use 10 drops after lights out (10 - 11 pm and fish are resting) - ends up .02 to .05 ppm the next morning. when I first started I did half that two consecutive days checking in between. Dose it into sump (no where special). Never used the small micron socks - just sponge filter.

I also use this site to double check my calc. Great to have folks creating calculators.

Phosphate Remover Calculator
Do you have a suggestion of how many drops of Undiluted Phosban-L I should start with? My 120 PO level is 1.0-1.5. I have much rock that is 20-30 years old. No SPS, mainly LPS, Softies.
 

tehmadreefer

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Marketplace Rating
Joined
Oct 3, 2018
Messages
3,474
Reaction score
4,438
Thank for your reply. What size is the tank you treated? 3 drops....this is powerful stuff!
Mine was a 180, but you would be fine in a 120 as well, as I wasn’t too aggressive, as like you know, it is powerful and can wreak havoc on the overall balance of the tank if overdosed and create other issues.
 
Corals.com

Quietman

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
May 14, 2017
Messages
2,581
Reaction score
10,073
Location
Indiana - born and bred
Do you have a suggestion of how many drops of Undiluted Phosban-L I should start with? My 120 PO level is 1.0-1.5. I have much rock that is 20-30 years old. No SPS, mainly LPS, Softies.
Yeah...like I'm going to say anything now! LOL.

But to respond...I haven't used that product. But how I personally would proceed is to follow manufacturers directions, then cut the recommended dose in half (if this is first time using it). Dose it and check PO4 the next day (24 hours-ish). Adjust next dose based on those results and your tank response.

At .10 to .15 there's no emergency and you have time to proceed with a reasonable amount of caution. Also, even if you go full recommended dose you'll likely have no issues, I'm just really cautious with additives and want to know what to expect before going all in.
 

schooncw

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
489
Reaction score
326
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Yeah...like I'm going to say anything now! LOL.

But to respond...I haven't used that product. But how I personally would proceed is to follow manufacturers directions, then cut the recommended dose in half (if this is first time using it). Dose it and check PO4 the next day (24 hours-ish). Adjust next dose based on those results and your tank response.

At .10 to .15 there's no emergency and you have time to proceed with a reasonable amount of caution. Also, even if you go full recommended dose you'll likely have no issues, I'm just really cautious with additives and want to know what to expect before going all in.
The mfg directions makes my head hurt and they only recommend diluted. I'll take it very slow with a few drops undiluted into the return. My PO is not .10 to .15, that was 1.0-1.5! Yet the tank looks perfect!
 

Dkeller_nc

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Messages
887
Reaction score
1,209
The mfg directions makes my head hurt and they only recommend diluted. I'll take it very slow with a few drops undiluted into the return. My PO is not .10 to .15, that was 1.0-1.5! Yet the tank looks perfect!
That is a significant observation. There has been a LOT of debate about the "ideal" phosphate level in a reef tank. One important qualification about "phosphate level" is to realize that our typical hobbyist test kits will assay only a portion of the total phosphorus in the tank water. Typically, and depending on the particular chemistry of the phosphate test, that would be a quantitation of inorganic phosphate in the tank water.

Phosphorous exists in many forms in a biological system - just one example is the existence of phosphorus in the constituents of the cell walls of living organisms (one example - phosphatidyl choline, a molecule in the class of "phospholipids").

Laboratory tests tend to be designed to measure free dissolved inorganic phosphorus in the form of orthophosphate, total phosphorus as both organic/inorganic/particulate phosphorus by converting all types to phosphorus compounds that can be measured by the test chemistry (usually labeled "digestion"), soluble phosphorus, and insoluble phosphorus. Typical hobbyist test kits do not include filtration processes aimed at separating soluble/insoluble phosphorus for quantitation, nor digestion to convert all phosphorus in a sample to a form that can be measured.

The end result is that we as hobbyists rely on the fraction of soluble, inorganic orthophosphate that we can quantitate as a surrogate for the total phosphorus in the system. There certainly is the potential, even likelihood, that different results for two different tanks that have nearly identical hobbyist-measured phosphorus levels are attributable to the fact that those different tanks may have wildly different measurable orthophosphate fractions of the total phosphorus in the systems.

If you are interested in a more thorough discussion of laboratory phosphorus tests as applied to aquatic systems, this web page provides more detail:

 

schooncw

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
489
Reaction score
326
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
That is a significant observation. There has been a LOT of debate about the "ideal" phosphate level in a reef tank. One important qualification about "phosphate level" is to realize that our typical hobbyist test kits will assay only a portion of the total phosphorus in the tank water. Typically, and depending on the particular chemistry of the phosphate test, that would be a quantitation of inorganic phosphate in the tank water.

Phosphorous exists in many forms in a biological system - just one example is the existence of phosphorus in the constituents of the cell walls of living organisms (one example - phosphatidyl choline, a molecule in the class of "phospholipids").

Laboratory tests tend to be designed to measure free dissolved inorganic phosphorus in the form of orthophosphate, total phosphorus as both organic/inorganic/particulate phosphorus by converting all types to phosphorus compounds that can be measured by the test chemistry (usually labeled "digestion"), soluble phosphorus, and insoluble phosphorus. Typical hobbyist test kits do not include filtration processes aimed at separating soluble/insoluble phosphorus for quantitation, nor digestion to convert all phosphorus in a sample to a form that can be measured.

The end result is that we as hobbyists rely on the fraction of soluble, inorganic orthophosphate that we can quantitate as a surrogate for the total phosphorus in the system. There certainly is the potential, even likelihood, that different results for two different tanks that have nearly identical hobbyist-measured phosphorus levels are attributable to the fact that those different tanks may have wildly different measurable orthophosphate fractions of the total phosphorus in the systems.

If you are interested in a more thorough discussion of laboratory phosphorus tests as applied to aquatic systems, this web page provides more detail:

Very interesting, thank you for the link.
 
Top