Lets chat heater redundancy with controllers

[Jstn]

My tank will be just fine for 12 hours without the return running. Less than idea, but everything should survive. And, since I get an email notification, I can either go home to fix it or ask someone to help. Same as if I'm on vacation. I can walk my tank sitter through unplugging the heater causing the problem (current monitored ports) and then restore flow.
My primary heater should be turned off by the controller at 78.3F and my backup heater should turn off at 77.3F. If the temp probe that controls my heaters fails low, or the outlet fails to deenergize, my return pump is a last ditch response to keep from cooking my tank.

This may work for you in Alabama, but today its -17 in Mn with windchill much lower, the house stays at 60f during the day and 70 when i get home. Heating the home during the day would be a giant waste of money and not an option.

I have my power heads that provide plenty of flow and air exchange. I keep my house at around 72F during the day so my DT would stay above that temperature. Not ideal, but should not be harmful.

I just went through this thought process after watching a BRS Live discussion where they mentioned Neptune doesn't recommend you ever plug an uncontrolled titanium heater directly in to the Apex.

I have a 90 gal with two Finnex 300w heaters, a primary and a back up. I had the primary hooked up directly to the Apex EB832, and the back up to a second EB832 through an Inkbird ITC-308. This setup has done fine for two years. The flaw in my rig was if the Apex temp probe failed or the relay controlling the heater outlet stuck "ON" on the primary, I could have cooked my tank. A tank can recover from colder temps, say 68, much better than hotter, say 90+. Also, one failed "ON" heater will get you overheated potentially killing your tank, where one failed "OFF" will just go to your backup.

for overheat protection and redundancy, I put a second controller on the primary heater, an Inkbird ITC -306T ($30 on Amazon). It's probably better suited for my heater only application and a few dollars less than the ITC-308 which is set up for a heater and chiller.

The minimum temp swing on the Inkbirds is 1 deg F, not near the 1/10th ° fidelity of the Apex. I got around it it by setting the Inkbird at 80 deg with a 2 deg swing. This means the Inkbird will power on it's outlet(s) at 78°, off at 80° I have my Apex set to power the outlet at 77.5° off at 78°. So... the outlet powers on at 77.5°, the Inkbird sensing the temp below 78° allows the heater to power up and draw power through the Inkbird outlet. It will now warm the tank to 78°, then Apex shuts off the EB832 outlet until the temp drops to 77.5° and continues that loop until the the heater is no longer needed (Summer), and protects against high temperature. With a separate (and calibrating probe) the Inkbird will power off at 80° should the Apex temp probe fail, or the outlet relay on the EB832 stick "ON". I have the backup set the same, but "ON" at a degree lower with a notification to let me know if it ever draws power, telling me the primary heater is failing/ has failed.

I'm sure it's not the only option, maybe not even the best option, but in my Apex setup, for $30 I now have redundant overheat protection on both heaters.

I have this ranco. It’s a bit more expensive because of the NEMA 4 enclosure, which is supposed to be more “water proof” enclosure, but I’m not sure you need it.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/product/~product_id=ETC-241000-000

This is the nema 1 enclosure which is a bit cheaper.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Ranco-E...e-Temperature-Control-w-Sensor-120-240V-Input

It may seem complicated to wire, but there are lots of videos tutorials online. Mostly by people who brew beer :).

I’ve owned both ranco and inkbird, and it’s a different level of quality and longevity. You should get shrink wrap or make a waterproof well for the ranco temp probe. It is technically not waterproof, but I hear some have used it fine for a long time without issues.

So you are saying the inkbird < ranco? I wish there was a 500w titanium that came with a controller build in, ugh...

 

[Jstn]

Also another forum member found this :

https://www.fishtanksdirect.com/fin...1krYbwqvCLfQL8hZvzIm4mCeIVSiZcYBoCfC8QAvD_BwE

 

[MikeW9788]

I'm glad I found this thread. I recently added a pm2 so I can have two temp probes. I never thought about protection from the relay outlet failing. Ordering the inkbird controller today as a fail safe. Was going to add a second heater set a few degrees below the main in case the main failed but as pointed out a high temp is much worse then a low one. I will do both.

 

[Brew12]

This may work for you in Alabama, but today its -17 in Mn with windchill much lower, the house stays at 60f during the day and 70 when i get home.

And this is why my mom lives near the Twin Cities and my wife and I live in Alabama! ;)

 

[Gablami]

This may work for you in Alabama, but today its -17 in Mn with windchill much lower, the house stays at 60f during the day and 70 when i get home. Heating the home during the day would be a giant waste of money and not an option.







So you are saying the inkbird < ranco? I wish there was a 500w titanium that came with a controller build in, ugh...

Yes the ranco is more reliable than the inkbird for sure. It is an industrial grade device, that can be setup to run all sorts of things where temperature and reliability are of utmost importance. You’ll encounter theads occasionally about inkbirds falling, but I haven’t run into one for the ranco (though I’m sure they’re out there).

If you are backed up by a tank controller, I think an inkbird is more than adequate. But if it is your sole temp controller, I would not trust an inkbird with my tank.

 

[Jstn]

And this is why my mom lives near the Twin Cities and my wife and I live in Alabama! ;)

You are wise lol.

I think I am going to try the finnex temp controllers as they are meant to be run with these elements anyways. Does anyone have experience with these?

 

[vetteguy53081]

I run only Finnex but make sure I use the ones with the temperature probes and I clean those probes with an algae sponge monthly

 

[Rich Klein]

I run the same (2) 500 Watt Finnex Titanium heaters, also on separate Apex Energy bars. I (2) 900 Watt Finnex controllers (with remote probe), which I calibrate to stay on 1 degree past the the top temp setting on my Apex. I keep an Apex temp probe in my Tank and Sump. If either reads .5 of a degree high or low I get an email and text alert, and it turns-on a school bell. Sounds extreme, but I sleep like a baby.

 

[ca1ore]

Yes the ranco is more reliable than the inkbird for sure. It is an industrial grade device, that can be setup to run all sorts of things where temperature and reliability are of utmost importance. You’ll encounter theads occasionally about inkbirds falling, but I haven’t run into one for the ranco (though I’m sure they’re out there).

If you are backed up by a tank controller, I think an inkbird is more than adequate. But if it is your sole temp controller, I would not trust an inkbird with my tank.

I’ve used both Ranco and Inkbird and significantly prefer the former. I’d not trust the stinkbird to play any role on my tank. The single stage Ranco with shrink sleeve temp probe is something like $55. My three are still going strong, one almost a decade old.

 

[Flameback Pair]

I have a $35 Inkbird and don't trust it. The alarm on it went off and I tugged some slack on the sensor cord and the sound alarm shut off. Release tension on cord, sound alarm comes back on. Faulty wiring !!!! Getting a Ranco.

 

[Mortie31]

I just went through this thought process after watching a BRS Live discussion where they mentioned Neptune doesn't recommend you ever plug an uncontrolled titanium heater directly in to the Apex.

This makes no sense, you spend several hundred on an Apex and it can’t even reliably control a heater?? And they recommend putting a secondary cheap temp controller before your apex.. alarm bells ringing over the quality or reliability as it kind of defeats the point of having a controller, do I also need to have to have backups on everything else it controls??

 

[shark keeper]

Following this along... Recently set my tank back up and I use 3 Finnex heaters with the analog controller. I set two of them to the preferred setting with the third set lower. I use my Apex as a fail safe. Now I'm worried that this wont be enough.

 

[Jstn]

Well happy to report I like the finnex controller, it reads a degree higher than my apex (says 79-80) when my apex is at 78.5, no big deal. I have it set to turn off at 82, I like the remote temp probe, seems to be decent quality. I have been using my apex
to control it and day 2 it is flawless. Only minor complaint is it beeps when turning on, it’s not very loud and it’s in my cabinet. I increased my apex hysterisis to reduce this (77.9-78.5).

I ordered a second one and feel better
If my apex temp probe fails or the outlet
Fails in the on position.

 

[Randy Ruiz]

I run two temperature sensors in my sump and if either gets above 81F they shut off my return pump and send me an alert. I don't use an Apex so there might be a better way to do it with your system. I would much rather cook my sump than my DT.

But if you cook your sump, won't you also do the same with DT since it's actually all connected right?

 

[Jstn]

This makes no sense, you spend several hundred on an Apex and it can’t even reliably control a heater?? And they recommend putting a secondary cheap temp controller before your apex.. alarm bells ringing over the quality or reliability as it kind of defeats the point of having a controller, do I also need to have to have backups on everything else it controls??

Lets say you turn the heater outlet on by mistake or the relay breaks in the on position or your temp probe gets knocked out or your probe dies and is reading 64°F, in all these situation the heater will remain on and keep heating and might nuke your tank. The titanium heaters lack any control, i am trying to find the best solutions as a fall back that prevents the heater in these aforementioned uncommon but possible situations will yield a mere three mile island instead of a full blown Chernobyl.

 

[Mortie31]

Lets say you turn the heater outlet on by mistake or the relay breaks in the on position or your temp probe gets knocked out or your probe dies and is reading 64°F, in all these situation the heater will remain on and keep heating and might nuke your tank. The titanium heaters lack any control, i am trying to find the best solutions as a fall back that prevents the heater in these aforementioned uncommon but possible situations will yield a mere three mile island instead of a full blown Chernobyl.

Sorry I wasn’t critiscing your plans, but the APEX controller, I don’t understand why it can’t handle this very basic requirement

 

[Jstn]

Sorry I wasn’t critiscing your plans, but the APEX controller, I don’t understand why it can’t handle this very basic requirement

It can but that’s not good enough, things happen and I want a backup. Apex are very reliable and good but everything fails on a long enough time, and when a heater dies it usually dies on. I have never had a failure but I want redundancy.

 

[Flameback Pair]

Can Cobalt heaters fail "on"? Don't they have a microprocessor instead of contact points?

 

[Jstn]

Can Cobalt heaters fail "on"? Don't they have a microprocessor instead of contact points?

Not sure but for my 120 gal in cold Minnesota I need at least 500w, those only come in 300w max iirc. They do seem quality build, perhaps they fail off due to the processer?