Lighting that won't need upgrading

Sarcazian

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Or you can do as I do:
1614302212567.png

LOL. That is funny since I was going to offer this up to him and figured that no one else would be allowed to do this in a home. The wife never found it funny and like you.. I did not even bother painting it.
 

A. grandis

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Yes, the spectrum is can be achieved by LED's. The same coverage can be achieved. The same growth can be achieved. Light is light, regardless of what it comes from. Now are some LED's worse than t5? Yes, cheap laser beams have horrible spread. Are some LED's better than t5? Potentially, if used correctly. People who say they wish they had t5's so their coral could do better either don't run their LED correctly (height, spread, etc.), fall into logical fallacies and cognitive shortcuts since people are very easy to trick into believing what they want to see, don't understand that when you switch a light source corals are not going to be happy, and so on and so on. It doesn't cost thousands to set up LED's, and you also save by not buying bulbs constantly.

If you can provide me studied evidence that LED causes issues in chlrophyl and photopigment production, and is worse as you describe, then sure. But having used many LED's, sell coral for a job, and dealt with hundreds of tanks running many different lighting setups, having gone to university library indexes to look up what wavelengths and colors are best for different things we keep, I will stick to my evidence :)
Application is important and some LEDs are "better" than others. I agree.
To isolate chlrophyl and photopigments in general coral health is he same as to measure PAR to prove one light is better than the other.
 

A. grandis

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Wouldn't the 36 x 4 be fine on a 40B? I ask because I plan on building out a 40B next and I still have my original ATI T5 36x4 from 2008 or 2010.
6 bulbs is what I would use over a 40 breeder.
We could even use an 8 bulb fixture over that tank.
 

A. grandis

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LOL. That is funny since I was going to offer this up to him and figured that no one else would be allowed to do this in a home. The wife never found it funny and like you.. I did not even bother painting it.
In that situation I had to place a canopy over that fixture.
That's why I didn't paint the supports. I also had to use the fan in the back because of the canopy over... to be certain and keep it cooler.
 

Sarcazian

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6 bulbs is what I would use over a 40 breeder.
We could even use an 8 bulb fixture over that tank.

So, if I was to ask this differently. Should I re-use the ATI 4 bulb fixture that I have or go to 2 x AI Prime 16 HD's with the future potential of 3.

I cannot see myself buying another T5 fixture to add 2 bulbs since the heat the 4 bulbs threw was already pretty immense and my office isn't that big.

While I ask this for myself, I think others could fall in this category. Especially for a smaller tank like the OP is talking about. Even the 4 bulb setup is about 156 watts of power that is always on. Vs. the AI's (or other LED) that you likely run at 70 (of 55w) or so percent based on you immediate need. However, if you run into heat issues you could in theory lower that intensity instead of having to cut the power off completely - as with T5's. Yes, you could pop out some bulbs as I have had to do this with the 4 fixture... but it's not optimal.

The 6 bulb would scale up to 234w and 8 bulb 312w. That is a lot of heat to dissipate and could be the difference between needing a chiller or not depending on the volume of air in a room.
 
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A. grandis

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So, if I was to ask this differently. Should I re-use the ATI 4 bulb fixture that I have or go to 2 x AI Prime 16 HD's with the future potential of 3.

I cannot see myself buying another T5 fixture to add 2 bulbs since the heat the 4 bulbs threw was already pretty immense and my office isn't that big.

While I ask this for myself, I think others could fall in this category. Especially for a smaller tank like the OP is talking about. Even the 4 bulb setup is about 156 watts of power that is always on. Vs. the AI's (or other LED) that you likely run at 70 (of 55w) or so percent based on you immediate need. However, if you run into heat issues you could in theory lower that intensity instead of having to cut the power off completely - as with T5's. Yes, you could pop out some bulbs as I have had to do this with the 4 fixture... but it's not optimal.

The 6 bulb would scale up to 234w and 8 bulb 312w. That is a lot of heat to dissipate and could be the difference between needing a chiller or not depending on the volume of air in a room.
Everything comes down to application and the goal you have for your system.
Depending on how you are going to place the corals you could get away with 4 bulbs.
I told you what I would do if it was mine though.
I have a 40 breeder I was going to set up and the 8 bulb fixture was in my mind because I want to have all the surface area covered. That's how I normally work with T5s.
Just make sure your photoperiod is adequate to the application.
I would prefer the T5s over the AIs, yes!
Using a fan between the water surface and fixture is in most cases enough to prevent any issues with heat.
 

Sarcazian

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Lol ok ppl who are arguing for the sake of leds. Have you ever grown coral under a t5 lamp?
D

I think it's a fair question on both sides. T5 was fool proof for the most part - timer on or off. LED's seem to good if the spectrum is setup properly and folks don't play with it. Set it and forget it by following someone has has been successful. However, ultimately not as good as T5s.

Maybe the newer strips will get even closer to that old approach.

Now, I ran with the T5 setup for 2 years before I tore the tank down due to pets and algae (you name it I had it.. ) due to real LR and some bad husbandry skills. Of course, also lack of experience being the first tank and only RC as a source of data. But, coral wise mostly softies with a few lps (hammer, frog, trump). It was a tall 36G Bow though, so what A. grandis' pointed 4 may not have been enough for full coverage.

I then took the inhabitants and restructured to a dual 15G setup side-by-side piped together. Same fixture over that with clams and other inhabitants. A major hurricane hit before I hit the year mark on that tank. No power for three weeks... so nothing survived.

Maybe it is trying to sell LED's, but BRS has done a lot of videos showing that the technology is starting to get close to a T5 as well. So, the question again goes back to the application you are planning to use it in.

As the op mentioned, he does not want to hang a T5 fixture from his ceiling or rig up something. The LED light with a tank bracket (maybe 2 lights for coverage and to lessen the disco effect) may provide similar growth (ignore par/etc) with only a percentage of growth difference. Plus, he did not need to figure out how to hang the light or deal with the extra heat issues.

Plus, the LED light might support scheduling without having to worry about buying two timers. It might have a moon light, although I don't know how people feel about these, or a ramp-up / down schedule to simulate certain things. Again, this may be seen as a negative since I heard that some studies showed that full sun light PAR was actually burning corals and it stunts growth...

Anyway, with the T5's we just turned up the actinic 30-60 minutes before the sunlight (bulbs) came on and then left the actinic on for 30-60 minutes after the sunlight went off. At least that's how I was taught to use them back in the day.
 
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So, if I was to ask this differently. Should I re-use the ATI 4 bulb fixture that I have or go to 2 x AI Prime 16 HD's with the future potential of 3.

I cannot see myself buying another T5 fixture to add 2 bulbs since the heat the 4 bulbs threw was already pretty immense and my office isn't that big.

While I ask this for myself, I think others could fall in this category. Especially for a smaller tank like the OP is talking about. Even the 4 bulb setup is about 156 watts of power that is always on. Vs. the AI's (or other LED) that you likely run at 70 (of 55w) or so percent based on you immediate need. However, if you run into heat issues you could in theory lower that intensity instead of having to cut the power off completely - as with T5's. Yes, you could pop out some bulbs as I have had to do this with the 4 fixture... but it's not optimal.

The 6 bulb would scale up to 234w and 8 bulb 312w. That is a lot of heat to dissipate and could be the difference between needing a chiller or not depending on the volume of air in a room.

The 4 bulb will be fine. Run it a little higher if needed and add a ReefBrite LED bar. Done.

If it takes you 150w of T5 to cover a tank, it will take you 150w of LEDs too. LEDs aren't twice the PAR per watt. Not even close. They are barely better than 1:1 but their spectrum and spread doesn't come close.

Also, a watt is a watt. LEDs just put their heat into a heatsink and into the room. There is no way around this.
 

A. grandis

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I think it's a fair question on both sides. T5 was fool proof for the most part - timer on or off. LED's seem to good if the spectrum is setup properly and folks don't play with it. Set it and forget it by following someone has has been successful. However, ultimately not as good as T5s.

Maybe the newer strips will get even closer to that old approach.

Now, I ran with the T5 setup for 2 years before I tore the tank down due to pets and algae (you name it I had it.. ) due to real LR and some bad husbandry skills. Of course, also lack of experience being the first tank and only RC as a source of data. But, coral wise mostly softies with a few lps (hammer, frog, trump). It was a tall 36G Bow though, so what A. grandis' pointed 4 may not have been enough for full coverage.

I then took the inhabitants and restructured to a dual 15G setup side-by-side piped together. Same fixture over that with clams and other inhabitants. A major hurricane hit before I hit the year mark on that tank. No power for three weeks... so nothing survived.

Maybe it is trying to sell LED's, but BRS has done a lot of videos showing that the technology is starting to get close to a T5 as well. So, the question again goes back to the application you are planning to use it in.

As the op mentioned, he does not want to hang a T5 fixture from his ceiling or rig up something. The LED light with a tank bracket (maybe 2 lights for coverage and to lessen the disco effect) may provide similar growth (ignore par/etc) with only a percentage of growth difference. Plus, he did not need to figure out how to hang the light or deal with the extra heat issues.

Plus, the LED light might support scheduling without having to worry about buying two timers. It might have a moon light, although I don't know how people feel about these, or a ramp-up / down schedule to simulate certain things. Again, this may be seen as a negative since I heard that some studies showed that full sun light PAR was actually burning corals and it stunts growth...

Anyway, with the T5's we just turned up the actinic 30-60 minutes before the sunlight (bulbs) came on and then left the actinic on for 30-60 minutes after the sunlight went off. At least that's how I was taught to use them back in the day.
In other words... 4 bulb works... 6 bulbs better.
My very first T5 fixture was a 4 bulb over a 75gal. tank and it was fine. That fixture worked, but with the 6 bulb things got much better. That is how it works.
An 8 bulb fixture over a 40 breeder can be interpreted as overkill, yes, because it isn't necessary.
 
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So, if I was to ask this differently. Should I re-use the ATI 4 bulb fixture that I have or go to 2 x AI Prime 16 HD's with the future potential of 3.

I cannot see myself buying another T5 fixture to add 2 bulbs since the heat the 4 bulbs threw was already pretty immense and my office isn't that big.

While I ask this for myself, I think others could fall in this category. Especially for a smaller tank like the OP is talking about. Even the 4 bulb setup is about 156 watts of power that is always on. Vs. the AI's (or other LED) that you likely run at 70 (of 55w) or so percent based on you immediate need. However, if you run into heat issues you could in theory lower that intensity instead of having to cut the power off completely - as with T5's. Yes, you could pop out some bulbs as I have had to do this with the 4 fixture... but it's not optimal.

The 6 bulb would scale up to 234w and 8 bulb 312w. That is a lot of heat to dissipate and could be the difference between needing a chiller or not depending on the volume of air in a room.
Yeah that's one of the reasons I didn't want to go T5s initially the heat. The room where the tank is always get hot with 2 computers and and another computer just 10 feet away, really don't want it to get any hotter than it already does....
 

zalick

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Yeah that's one of the reasons I didn't want to go T5s initially the heat. The room where the tank is always get hot with 2 computers and and another computer just 10 feet away, really don't want it to get any hotter than it already does....
The LEDs still produce lots of heat (maybe the same amount of heat) but it directs the heat up through the heatsink instead of down towards tank. So theoretically the room will still be absorbing the heat. So if you run two kessil it's like running two Ryzen 7 in the room. That might not be exactly correct, but I think it's close enough to accurate.

Given your heat issues in the room with 3 computers, Id probably lean towards LED for your setup. I'd probably look towards the lesser expensive name brand units that people have success with, or used higher end. Pretty much all the options mentioned in this thread will serve you well enough for a few years or longer.
 
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The LEDs still produce lots of heat (maybe the same amount of heat) but it directs the heat up through the heatsink instead of down towards tank. So theoretically the room will still be absorbing the heat. So if you run two kessil it's like running two Ryzen 7 in the room. That might not be exactly correct, but I think it's close enough to accurate.

Given your heat issues in the room with 3 computers, Id probably lean towards LED for your setup. I'd probably look towards the lesser expensive name brand units that people have success with, or used higher end. Pretty much all the options mentioned in this thread will serve you well enough for a few years or longer.
Yeah I was thinking the Reefbreeders Photon v2+ but not 100% sure yet....still weighing pros and cons of all the others suggested....actually don't even think anyone recommend the Photon here....hmmm

oh yeah I forgot to ask the picture you posted yesterday....why so blue? Is that the way you set it?
 

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Yeah I was thinking the Reefbreeders Photon v2+ but not 100% sure yet....still weighing pros and cons of all the others suggested....actually don't even think anyone recommend the Photon here....hmmm

oh yeah I forgot to ask the picture you posted yesterday....why so blue? Is that the way you set it?
I think people generally like the reefbreeder photons. I'm no LED expert but they seem to be a very popular affordable option.

The Kessil lights are one of the the only, maybe the only, LED light where they designed and make their own diodes and specifically for reef application. Whatever color spectrum you set it at, it will deliver the necessary (and same) light for the coral, so changing the spectrum on the unit is mostly aesthetic only. They call it kessil logic. I have these pure blue just to enhance the appearance of the hammers. No other biological reason etc.
 
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I think people generally like the reefbreeder photons. I'm no LED expert but they seem to be a very popular affordable option.

The Kessil lights are one of the the only, maybe the only, LED light where they designed and make their own diodes and specifically for reef application. Whatever color spectrum you set it at, it will deliver the necessary (and same) light for the coral, so changing the spectrum on the unit is mostly aesthetic only. They call it kessil logic. I have these pure blue just to enhance the appearance of the hammers. No other biological reason etc.
Oh yeah I think I have read about the Kessil logic seems to be a pretty cool feature so you dont set the light to the wrong spectrum
 

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Oh yeah I think I have read about the Kessil logic seems to be a pretty cool feature so you dont set the light to the wrong spectrum
Err.. it's really geared to keeping the same power as you shift the look ( color temp).
 

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oh I see....i guess I misunderstood
You didn't misunderstand. It's not about power, it's about spectrum.

Here is a quote from Kessil

"Kessil Logic locks in the ideal spectrum for coral and plant growth, meaning your tank will thrive regardless of the colors you choose."
 

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Application is important and some LEDs are "better" than others. I agree.
To isolate chlrophyl and photopigments in general coral health is he same as to measure PAR to prove one light is better than the other.


I never isolated chlorophyll and photopigments as the only factor in coral health. We are discussing light, and particular spectrum that you mentioned. Therefore, photopigments are infact the thing to talk about if we are discussing wavelength.
 
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You didn't misunderstand. It's not about power, it's about spectrum.

Here is a quote from Kessil

"Kessil Logic locks in the ideal spectrum for coral and plant growth, meaning your tank will thrive regardless of the colors you choose."
okay yeah thats what I remember reading lol
 

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