Making the move from 2 part to All for Reef - a reef log

[knockout]

based on this recently published article https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/how-we-use-icp-oes-results-of-unknown-accuracy-and-precision.862/

I will be switching ICP testing from month to month to various vendors as does not look like we can rely on any vendor (bummer)

 

[undermind]

Where are you at with your transition to AFR? What percentage (roughly) of AFR is being dosed compared to expected full dose?

And what is the reasoning behind switching ICP testing vendors every month, as it pertains to unreliability?

 

[knockout]

The article above describes how they tested a number of ICP vendors and how much the tests varied from the same sample water even when they sent the one vendor two exact samples the numbers were different

I am using my alk readings to increase my a4r dosage, at the moment the a4r has been increasing my KH slightly while I have been backing off the 2-part
When I first introduced a4r I was dosing 105ml of Alk daily, have been reducing based on tests, today I am at 75ml of 2-part while I have not yet changed my a4r dosage from the initial 19ml daily which is the minimum based on my water volume, hard to say what dosage of a4r I would end up with but it will be 100% be dictated based on consumption and once the 2-part reaches 0ml daily

my hope is that 2part alk dosages reach 0 and if I have to supplement calcium or mag that would be fine, alk is the scary one when dealing with SPS so, taking it extremely easy...

 

[codenfx]

I just bought the All for reef powder yesterday, how do you know if its the new recipe?

 

[undermind]

The article above describes how they tested a number of ICP vendors and how much the tests varied from the same sample water even when they sent the one vendor two exact samples the numbers were different

I am using my alk readings to increase my a4r dosage, at the moment the a4r has been increasing my KH slightly while I have been backing off the 2-part
When I first introduced a4r I was dosing 105ml of Alk daily, have been reducing based on tests, today I am at 75ml of 2-part while I have not yet changed my a4r dosage from the initial 19ml daily which is the minimum based on my water volume, hard to say what dosage of a4r I would end up with but it will be 100% be dictated based on consumption and once the 2-part reaches 0ml daily

my hope is that 2part alk dosages reach 0 and if I have to supplement calcium or mag that would be fine, alk is the scary one when dealing with SPS so, taking it extremely easy...

Yeah I've seen that article regarding the ICP vendors. I was just curious what YOUR reasoning was in switching ICP vendors from month to month.

And thanks for the update on where you're at with how much AFR you're dosing. I was curious why you elected to keep adding potassium after getting a high reading but I see that you're not too far along in the transition to AFR.

 

[knockout]

test KH = 10.4 again so it is very stable at this dosage of 19ml of A4R which is super odd since I have been reducing the 2-part dose,
reducing 2-part further to 60ml daily from 75 ml
my goal is to maintain KH at a ~8.5

Calcium tested low again - need to get this up to 400, doing a 2-part 75 ml single dose and upped daily 2-part to 60 ml since Alk still high I cannot increase the A4R dose

 

[knockout]

Being testing and adjusting dosages for the last couple of weeks, here are the notes
Summary:
AFR up to 60 ml daily dosage
2-part Calcium down to 50 ml daily dosage
2-part Alkalinity down to 10 ml daily dosage
2-part Magnesium maintaining at 10 ml daily dosage

Logs below:

Date	Element	Salifert	AF	ICP	Alkalinity	Action	Notes
5/11/2022	Alkalinity		10.10		10.10	adjusted 2-part to 60ml
5/14/2022	Alkalinity	11.20	10.40		10.80	Suspended 2-part dosage until alk drops below 9.5 dKH	10 G water change
5/15/2022	Alkalinity	9.30			9.30	Added 10ml 2-part + AFR up to 30 ml
5/16/2022	Alkalinity	9.00			9.00	Manually added 10 ml 2-part
5/17/2022	Alkalinity	9.00			9.00	no adjustment
5/18/2022	Alkalinity		8.40		8.40	Added 10ml 2-part + AFR up to 45 ml
5/20/2022	Alkalinity	9.60			9.60	Maintaining both doses
5/21/2022	Alkalinity		8.70		8.70	Increasing AFR up to 60 ml	It's hot enough today to kick in the chiller

Date	Element	Salifert	AF	ICP	Calcium	Action	Notes
5/13/2022	Calcium		320		320	done waiting... added 200ml to boost my calcium level
5/14/2022	Calcium		360		360	adjusted to 100ml daily	10 G water change
5/15/2022	Calcium		375		375	AFR up to 30 ml
5/16/2022	Calcium		400		400	Reached CA normal level
5/16/2022	Calcium		400		400	Begin 2-part decrease if CA is above 420
5/17/2022	Calcium		410		410	no adjustment
5/18/2022	Calcium		425		425	Reduced 2-part to 85 ml + AFR up to 45 ml
5/20/2022	Calcium		440		440	Reduced 2-part to 75 ml, maintain AFR at 45 ml
5/21/2022	Calcium		450		450	Reduced 2-part to 50 ml, AFR increased to 60 ml due to Alk level dropping	It's hot enough today to kick in the chiller

Date	Element	Salifert	AF	ICP	Magnesium	Action	Notes
5/18/2022	Magnesium		1280		1280	AFR up to 45 ml

 

[knockout]

I just bought the All for reef powder yesterday, how do you know if its the new recipe?

@codenfx Sorry I missed your question, without re-reading that thread posted earlier I recall the Lot code starts with 2 for the new recipe.

 

[knockout]

Today I completely stopped 2-part dosing, at this point dosing A4R at 55ml daily
Alk at 9.9
Calcium at 475, this should start coming down as 25 ml of 2-part will no longer be added

I have had some losses in the transition most likely due to the alkalinity swings.
lost a mini colony of Acropora,
and had another Acropora RTN but I think I was able to save most of it,
Montiporas did the worse, lost the base of the Forest Fire Digitata, Undata, and Superman Monti lost about an inch of flesh around the rim and lost a frag of Stellata but I can't blame anything on that one since this is my 4th frag of it that does not make it, will not try that one again.
Another mystery is a Montipora Hirsuta was lost but the same coral was in the frag rack and nothing happened there.

I am OK with how the transition went, I am not expecting any different results although better color and better growth are always welcomed, the main goal is to simplify my dosing regimen.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am currently dosing 10 elements daily,
BRS Alk 100ml daily, latest tested at 9.85 (right in line with where I want this value)
BRS Cal 25ml daily, latest tested at 360 (working on elevating this value)
BRS Mag 10ml daily, latest tested at 1290 ( I would like this a bit higher but it's ok)
Red Sea A-B-C-D trace elements (ml dosage varies based on ICP tests results),
Acropower Aminoacids 20ml daily
Stability Bacteria colony 5ml daily
Reef BioFuel Carbon dosing 5ml daily
ion.



My goal with AFR is to potentially shrink 7 or 8 element doses to 1 (or 2).

I don't get the intent.

AFR will only, at best, replace the first 4 of those. You may or may not need things like amino acids, but AFR is not any sort of replacement for those.

 

[knockout]

I don't get the intent.

AFR will only, at best, replace the first 4 of those. You may or may not need things like amino acids, but AFR is not any sort of replacement for those.

@Randy Holmes-Farley the 4th item on that list (Red Sea A-B-C-D ) is 4 separate elements. IF and I suppose I will find out if A4R can replace them, then maintaining the tanks is much more straightforward, this includes mixing, storing, and procuring these 7 elements making sure there is enough stock at home for when they are needed.

IMO there is value in that.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley the 4th item on that list (Red Sea A-B-C-D ) is 4 separate elements. IF and I suppose I will find out if A4R can replace them, then maintaining the tanks is much more straightforward, this includes mixing, storing, and procuring these 7 elements making sure there is enough stock at home for when they are needed.

IMO there is value in that.

I agree that you may be able to replace the first 4 with All for Reef (one part) or with a true two part that has extra trace elements (then 2 parts).

Both of those options, however, take away some control that separate additives provide.

 

[knockout]

All for Reef transition complete, my final thoughts:

It would be best if you definitely took this transition slowly, even slower.
I tested and made dosages adjustments about every two to three days, I think that adjustments to the dosages need to be done more gradually than I did, the dKH values in A4R definitely take a while to show up on tests results, which led me to higher than wanted dKH values, and more swings than I anticipated, so if you're making this move my advice would be to test often but only adjust weekly and not to jump to the suggested dosage too quickly as that may not be the actual requirement for your tank.

My current dose of A4R = 45ml daily, broken into 12 doses, scheduled over 24 hours on ReefDose

 

[knockout]

Just an update, I have seen no adverse effect from the switch, I lost a couple of acroporas and montiporas in the process more due to the instability of trying to dose both the a4r and 2 part at the beginning...

 

[knockout]

I have one question for those using this product long term, @Lou Ekus @Hans-Werner

How much can I premix and for how long can it be stored?

I am leaving on a long 3-month trip and would like to have it premixed before leaving, use to do that with 2 part easily just wondering if I can do the same

 

[areefer01]

I have one question for those using this product long term, @Lou Ekus @Hans-Werner

How much can I premix and for how long can it be stored?

I am leaving on a long 3-month trip and would like to have it premixed before leaving, use to do that with 2 part easily just wondering if I can do the same

I had asked this question because I wanted to mix the whole 1600g container which is 10 liters I believe. That would last me about 3 months currently and RHF and Lou both said no issue. I see you tagged Tropic Marin so they can confirm.

 

[Hans-Werner]

How much can I premix and for how long can it be stored?

I am leaving on a long 3-month trip and would like to have it premixed before leaving, use to do that with 2 part easily just wondering if I can do the same

Hi,
This should be no problem. I am also using a 30 liter (7.7 US-gallons) container which lasts me more than 3 months and the samples of the batch tests I use have been collected for just as long before. A full strength solution is inhibiting growth of bacteria and fungi due to its high concentration.

 

[knockout]

Thanks, @areefer01 & @Hans-Werner

 

[knockout]

ICP test using Tropic Marin All for Reef since new tank setup, I am adding 50ml extra magnesium daily to keep the number in the 1300 range, no other daily elements added except a few drops of iodine which could explain the reason that is higher than normal, other high elements may be coming from the lack (laziness) of media change on the RO/DI system.

all elements look good, some copper in there may be from new fish water getting in after acclimation, not going to worry about that, just changed GFO/Rowaphos to bring down phosphates

 

[Hooz]

ICP test using Tropic Marin All for Reef since new tank setup, I am adding 50ml extra magnesium daily to keep the number in the 1300 range, no other daily elements added except a few drops of iodine which could explain the reason that is higher than normal, other high elements may be coming from the lack (laziness) of media change on the RO/DI system.

all elements look good, some copper in there may be from new fish water getting in after acclimation, not going to worry about that, just changed GFO/Rowaphos to bring down phosphates

Are you using the original recipe AFR, or the newer, higher iodine recipe?