Mature tank needs your help

[SPR1968]

I've never considered using my own salt water. I was about to quote cost as a reason, but 1000L of NSW costs me $AUD120 and I've just looked up Aquaforest salt and worked out that if 345g makes 10L then a 22kg bucket should give me about 650L!! Thats pretty good. I just dont like how it says to use within 5 days.... That would be a ******* to have to mix it every week.

Thanks for your other post about light, I use a modified AB+ but because of the black box, I get a bit of a spike in red's. I might try to reduce that.

Your more than welcome

Just check the mixing parameters of whatever salt your going to use to make sure it’s in line with your aims. I’m not familiar with Aquaforest, maybe others here are, but I can recommend the Red Sea Standard salt, that’s what I use

I’ve also just spotted your phosphate number, I misread is as 0.03-0.04. If it’s 0.3-4 that could well be a main cause of your problem, unless it’s just a typo?

 

[Sallstrom]

Like @SPR1968 wrote, 0,3 ppm phosphate sounds a bit high for me too. Perhaps adding a phosphate remover could help. And some active carbon if you are concerned over toxic substances(or a small ozone generator if that more suitable for you setup).

IMO "old tank syndrome " is more due to not keeping up with import and export of nutrients and elements, not age itself. So doing ICP tests regularly is a good idea I think. Could be good to know if your zink level is going up or down over time for example.

Using natural seawater may sound great, but are you storing the water before using it? Compared to newly mixed saltwater I guess natural water contains a lot of live organisms that might die when stored. Just a thought.

 

[PranK]

I do feel a bit silly. My water is the only part of my system that I have no control over. Considering I have a big ibc already next to my sump it makes sense to use it for mixing and give that a go.

Yeah phosphates are a bit high, I've been hitting them with lanthanum for a while I think I have them in my rocks but I was at .7 about 12 months ago. A massive part of the history I forgot to add! [emoji38]

 

[SPR1968]

I do feel a bit silly. My water is the only part of my system that I have no control over. Considering I have a big ibc already next to my sump it makes sense to use it for mixing and give that a go.

Yeah phosphates are a bit high, I've been hitting them with lanthanum for a while I think I have them in my rocks but I was at .7 about 12 months ago. A massive part of the history I forgot to add! [emoji38]

Whatever you do don't feel silly, we are here to help you, so dont worry at all.

If you phosphates are that high, that's 'probably' the main cause of poor coral health and conditions, but you don't want to drop it to quickly as the corals may like you even less.

There are many ways of doing things, me personally I use Rhowaphos (GFO) in a reactor to control phosphate and keep it locked down at around 0.03ppm. I am repeating myself from other threads, but this is the best single thing I ever did to my tank.

Just also remember if for example you use GFO, the rocks will leach out phosphate for some time so you will need to change the GFO frequently to start, otherwise it will become spent and not work properly. Once the levels are reduced, I for example change the Rhowaphos every 3 weeks or so but I have a massive fish bioload (sorry addiction! lol)

Bring the levels down slowly so the corals can adjust and then maybe look at the artificial sea water already mentioned, and also you can look at light settings, but I think phosphate levels may well be the issue.

You might find this interesting to read as well

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

 

[PranK]

The other thing that might be worth noting is that my glass has a very fine white film. It refuses to come off with my flipper on scrub or scrape. I've heard this is normal with bio pellets but it hasn't gone away.

 

[SPR1968]

The other thing that might be worth noting is that my glass has a very fine white film. It refuses to come off with my flipper on scrub or scrape. I've heard this is normal with bio pellets but it hasn't gone away.

I get a fine white film on the glass from carbon dosing for nitrate control (Nopox) especially at higher doses but that just wipes off. Yours sounds like it might be some sort of precipitation maybe if it wont scrape off.

You may find all of this improves if you go for the artificial sea water. As @Sallstrom says, the natural sea water could contain all sorts of things like organisms etc. These might all be fine in the ocean, but not in a glass box

 

[PranK]

Whatever you do don't feel silly, we are here to help you, so dont worry at all.

If you phosphates are that high, that's 'probably' the main cause of poor coral health and conditions, but you don't want to drop it to quickly as the corals may like you even less.

There are many ways of doing things, me personally I use Rhowaphos (GFO) in a reactor to control phosphate and keep it locked down at around 0.03ppm. I am repeating myself from other threads, but this is the best single thing I ever did to my tank.

Just also remember if for example you use GFO, the rocks will leach out phosphate for some time so you will need to change the GFO frequently to start, otherwise it will become spent and not work properly. Once the levels are reduced, I for example change the Rhowaphos every 3 weeks or so but I have a massive fish bioload (sorry addiction! lol)

Bring the levels down slowly so the corals can adjust and then maybe look at the artificial sea water already mentioned, and also you can look at light settings, but I think phosphate levels may well be the issue.

You might find this interesting to read as well

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

I've definitely learned to make changes slowly. I'm naturally impatient and keeping the tank has taught me to just bite myself and wait.

I've dropped phosphates slowly using lanth but I'm considering ditching my pellets for GFO, mostly because of the rocks storing phosphates, GFO would be easier and more consistent than using lanth once or twice a week.

What size tank do you have and how much GFO do you use for it?

 

[PranK]

I get a fine white film on the glass from carbon dosing for nitrate control (Nopox) especially at higher doses but that just wipes off. Yours sounds like it might be some sort of precipitation maybe if it wont scrape off.

You may find all of this improves if you go for the artificial sea water. As @Sallstrom says, the natural sea water could contain all sorts of things like organisms etc. These might all be fine in the ocean, but not in a glass box

Because the tank is in the wall, its extremely hard to clean the front glass and I have to rely on tools like the Flipper to help me out. But, I did buy some magic eraser type sponges and was planning on getting wet and uncomfortable to get the front glass nice and clean. Hopefully it comes off with them.

 

[SPR1968]

I've definitely learned to make changes slowly. I'm naturally impatient and keeping the tank has taught me to just bite myself and wait.

I've dropped phosphates slowly using lanth but I'm considering ditching my pellets for GFO, mostly because of the rocks storing phosphates, GFO would be easier and more consistent than using lanth once or twice a week.

What size tank do you have and how much GFO do you use for it?

My build thread link is in the signature below so take a look but 650 litres. I use around 300-500g of rhowaphos at a time in a deltec FR509 reactor, but I like fish..... a lot! lol

You should use GFO in a reactor to be effective.

 

[Elegance Coral]

JMHO
I'm a huge fan of GFO, but in your case, you could spend a small fortune, and a very long time, trying to combat this problem with GFO.
You have a large and old sand bed. By now it's full of rotting organics. Basically, it's just a large compost pile producing inorganic PO4 and many other inorganics and potentially harmful compounds.
So, you could bang your head against the wall, and empty your wallet, while your animals suffer, as you try to combat the negative effects of this rot and decay taking place in your tank, or you could spend an afternoon removing the problem.
Once the PO4 factory is gone, you can use much less GFO to manage it accumulation.
I agree that small, slow, steps are best when fine tuning parameters to our specifications. That is, when our pets aren't suffering. Once our pets start showing signs of stress, we need to take action to correct the problem. The sooner the better. If we were in a factory, and there was a chemical leak, we would not want a slow acclimation to fresh air. We would run to the exits seeking relief as fast as possible. It doesn't make sense for us to watch our pets suffer while we make tiny little changes over and extended period of time. It isn't stressful to move an animal from an environment that's harmful, to an environment that isn't. What's stressful is leaving an animal in a harmful environment for an extended period of time.
Again, this is JMHO
Peace
EC

 

[Sallstrom]

I would go for the GFO, and perhaps try to increase the export from the refugium for a while. Your numbers are not super high IMO.
It's just different ways to go. I prefer slower changes and a long term plan that's not too hard to follow.

Having some stored phosphate might be a good thing if things start to grown further on :)

 

[Turtlesteve]

I went through the "old tank syndrome" with my first 90gal setup years ago......the system was up for 7-8 years in total with a DSB, and for the latter 4 years or so it had very little maintenance. I also had high-ish nutrients, but lower Ca/Alk levels. I do subscribe to the belief that the DSB "goes bad" over time and causes problems if disturbed.

If it were my tank, I'd consider completely removing the sand, but I don't think this can be done safely unless livestock is transferred to a separate system during the process.

Steve

 

[PranK]

Thanks guys. More arguments for the no-DSB approach.

Part of me is really excited by the refresh/reboot on the tank. New rock structure, new look, more efficient, the other part of me is absolutely overwhelmed by even the thought of doing it.

I'll have a big think. Apparently it'll be raining in Sydney for at least another week, gives me the opportunity to do it this weekend maybe.

Here's a question; if I removed the DSB but wanted a few inches still in there (I prefer sand to bb) - could I just leave the bottom few inches of the sand bed or should i remove all of it and skim the top few inches to put back in?

As usual I'm likely over thinking this. :)

 

[Subsea]

I operated a dsb over a Jaubert Plenum for 25 years. Two years ago, I removed all substrate and modified to a reverse flow undergravel filter. I used 2” of araggonite substrate.



https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/2...m-on-top-with-30g-ecosystem-mud-macro.421526/

 

[Elegance Coral]

Thanks guys. More arguments for the no-DSB approach.

Part of me is really excited by the refresh/reboot on the tank. New rock structure, new look, more efficient, the other part of me is absolutely overwhelmed by even the thought of doing it.

I'll have a big think. Apparently it'll be raining in Sydney for at least another week, gives me the opportunity to do it this weekend maybe.

Here's a question; if I removed the DSB but wanted a few inches still in there (I prefer sand to bb) - could I just leave the bottom few inches of the sand bed or should i remove all of it and skim the top few inches to put back in?

As usual I'm likely over thinking this. :)

I do this kind of stuff for a living. This is how I do it so I don't lose any livestock in the process.
If you start removing the sand bed, remove all of it. Trash the whole thing.
I agree with Turtlesteve, in that you will need to remove the livestock during the process.
Get a couple of kiddy pools, or other such containers, Turn off all the pumps, and start moving rocks to the new containers while siphoning the clean water from the top of the aquarium, into the containers.
Try to keep the fish separate from the rocks. Fish in one container, rocks in another.
Stop siphoning water when you start removing the bottom rocks. The water will get nasty fast.
Use a dust pan and bucket, or wet and dry vac to remove all the sand and remaining water.
Clean and rinse the tank out. Then start filling with new clean salt water, and begin replacing the rocks. Try to rinse the rocks in the old water the best you can as you transfer them.
Build your new aquascape, fill the tank with clean water, and return the fish to the tank.
Run the tank BB for a while. You will get lots of detritus from the rocks while they adjust to the cleaner environment. With no sand, it will be easy to remove this detritus while changing water. When the rocks stop dropping large quantities of detritus, you can go back with new clean sand if you like.
I know this sounds like a lot of work, but it can be done in an afternoon, and when you're done, you'll have a new healthy tank.
Peace
EC

 

[Stigigemla]

The thin hard film on the front glass is Lanthanum phosphate. If you use lanthanum chloride it must be added very slowly before a filter mass of some kind so the lanthanum phosphate can precipate there.
Now when You have a lanthanum phosphate film on the glass it is probably over all so that can be a reason why the corals have problems. Shifting phosphate levels through the LC dosing is not good for the corals too.

To my customers I say: Calculate how much LC You need to get to Zero phosphate in the tank. Take half of that amount and add it dripwise for at least 6 hours before the skimmer or a filter. After 2 days or more test the phosphate level again and add the calculate half value. It will take a lot of dosings but the corals will do good.

Iron based phosphate reducer is much easier to use so thats what I usually recommend.

I believe Your zink in the water comes from the collect or transport. A RODI unit and a good aquarium salt will slowly fix that with regular water changes.

I see no reason to restart the tank. It will be OK in a few months wit no LC and GFO instead. A restart will take much longer time.

 

[PranK]

Ok, what a weekend! phew...

@Stigigemla I haven't been running lanth that long, maybe 3 or 4 months. To dose I put ~40mls into a 2 litre bottle of RO water and drip it over 6 hours or so. Right above the skimmer intake. Considering that the issues with the tank date back quite a long time I wasn't really prepared to just keep attacking numbers in what appeared to be an uphill battle.

What I did do;
I made up some salt water in 2 x 240L bins. In 15 years this is the first time I have mixed salt water!
On Saturday, I removed all rocks and coral, rocks into 2 x 100L black plastic tubs with heat and water movement, then fish into a 3rd tub with heat and movement.

Then, the painful part... I got all the sand out. Remember this tank is in wall and I have almost no access to the left-most quater of the tank because it intersects a wall in the room behind.

I rinsed the sand and re-used enough for 2 - 3" of cover in the tank. It still caused a lot of cloudiness but that was to be expected, I ran the skimmer super wet.

Fish went back in with minimal rock last night (Saturday) as I didn't want them to freak out too much over night in the tub.

Today I put in *some* of the rock. About 2/3rds was reused with the rest being left out because I had too much before. Also some of the rock had palytoas on them which i hated and was having a hard time killing.

I've built 2 islands. I'll take pics tomorrow and post. It looks amazing! The tank is much deeper now (5" less sand and 1/3rd less rock) and there is so much more space for the fish to swim. All rocks are off the walls, so they can really go all over the place now. The other thing is that the aggression is gone! The 3 tangs are not ganging up on the fox face, the blenny isn't hiding from the tomini and the (highly anxious) coral beauty is just cruising around.

All in all, I'm seriously happy I did this. I'm exhausted!

Heres a pic to show you the difference in sand levels. The coraline in the corner started where the sand used to end.

 

[Katrina71]

More pics!

 

[PranK]

Lots still to be placed in new positions. Also can't see bottom of tank cause the wall cutout isn't so enough anymore.

Fish are so much more active and friendly with all the extra swim room.

 

[PranK]

Here is the tank back in Feb for a comparison. Most notable change for me is the depth.