Mature tank needs your help

[PranK]

Hello R2R, I hope some of you can help me and my tank out.

(Units are inches, I am not sure of the gallons of each tank).

I have a 60x30x28 in wall tank. It drains to a 4ft sump in my garage. I have had this particular tank for about 8 years, before that it was a 72x24x24 and a 48x24x24 before that. Probably 15 years total between the 3 tanks.

I am lucky enough to be on the coast and I buy 1000L (250G) of fresh salt water every few months. I use the methodology behind Randy’s constant water change to change out about 3L (.75G) every day.

I also have a small 2ft cube that is plumbed into my system, it houses everything that has been evicted from the main display (including a super cool 14” brittle star).

As long as I’ve had tanks, I’ve tried to have as much rock as possible. This is a bit of an old fashioned mentality I guess. I’ve taken crap loads out of my system in the past 12 months and I probably have 80kg (176lbs) across the 3 tanks now.

I have a massive clump of Caulerpa and Chaeto in my refugium housing millions of pods, brittle stars, worms, etc. I prune it monthly. It sits over a heap of rock and 2 large bio pure bricks.

I have a big 100W (roughly) UV steriliser that I ran for 6 months while I had an outbreak of Flukes. Its been off now since maybe mid Feb.

I have a small bio pellet reactor, a Bubble Magus curve 9 and I drop in bags of GAC every few weeks. That is it for my filtration.

Now, here’s where I have been experimenting because I’ve been having such dud results.

The lights have been changed a lot. I’ve given the tank several months each time to get used to the changes though, nothing has been changed quickly.

Also, I’ve been reluctant to buy more lights until I see something flourishing under them which is why the mismatching.

I have a Gen 1 Radion, 3 x AI Primes and a Black Box. All the corals at the top (sps) are getting ~250 par (thanks to Seneye).

I have an MP40 on each side along with some Jebao wave makers to create some chaos and agitate the surface. Flow is really good and I can see a lot of movement everywhere I look.

Lastly, and here’s what I think is the biggie; I have a DSB in the display. It is probably 8” at the deepest.

In the tank I have 3 tangs, a fox face, a wrasse, a coral beauty, pair of maroons, 3 chromis, mandarin, bicolour blenny. Inverts include some shrimp and stars and a monster 3”+ bristle worm.

I have a heap of euphyllia, a symphyllia, some lobos, GSP, zoos, palys and a few SPS pieces.

I feed frozen food in the evening and thera+ in the morning. Saturdays get a dose of Reefroids and Fridays get 50mls of Acropower.

Numbers;

Ammonia; 0.002 (Seneye)
pH; 8.1 - 8.3 (Seneye)
Salinity; 1.026 (Hanna)
Phosphates; 0.3 - 0.4 (Hanna)
Alk; 8.3 (Hanna)
Nitrates; 10 (red sea)
Calcium; 460 (Hanna)
Mg; 1400 (Hanna)

Problems;

Nothing is happy.

Well, maybe not ’nothing’. Of the 6 euphyllias, there’s 2 maybe that look good, 3 that look ok and 1 that won’t extend at all.

I have a pocillopora that still has a little bit of colour, but almost no polyp extension. I’ve had a lot of acro colonies that look great for a few months, some even longer, with great polyp extension, then they succumb to F/S TN.
2 Crispa. sp anemones that look on deaths door (despite a third in my overflow tank that looks fantastic!)
Even my GSP has hardly any polyps out atm.
I do have a alveopora which is looking good, actually most of the things at sand level look ok. The rhodactus and symphyllia etc look ok.
I have a crap load of palys, I’ve been trying to kill them with kalk paste. Maybe this is causing problems?
Another issue I have is my clowns are digging in the sand and I’m curious if they’re potentially digging up bad crap into the water column?

I’m at work now so can take and send pics of anything you need when I get home.

I’m sorry for the big post, I was trying to include everything. My numbers are pretty good, my flow is great, my lighting is good. But, something is not right. I’d love any ideas or suggestions.

Thanks in advance.

Christian

 

[Katrina71]

@vetteguy53081 has maintained big tanks for long term, maybe he has run across the same issue...

 

[PranK]

@vetteguy53081 has maintained big tanks for long term, maybe he has run across the same issue...

I am aware of the 'old tank syndrome' also, so maybe I just need to seed it or feed it or something. Be good to get more feedback.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Long posts are good as they provide plenty of information
While I have not suffered such effects long term, i had similar a few years ago and regrouped if you want to call it that.
While stability IS key , changes were warranted in my case. What did i do differently?
I first focused on water movement and lighting. I reduced whites and increased blues (80% blue and 19% white. I evened out all water flow to moderate flow and gyre effect whereas current is staggered all over not just straight across.
I payed attention to alk as these corals consume a lot of alk. I added some supplements such as iron, iodine and aminos 2x per week.
From this point I noticed an improvement then reduced water change frequency and wow-?everything looks great. I didn’t and won’t chase numbers but rather keep tank where it is. Just did a whole tank transfer 2 weeks ago today and here it is Above in pics

 

[PranK]

Thanks vetteguy53081,
I absolutely believe you're right. I think that getting my flow right, surface agitation and some better 'tuned' lights and then just monitoring. I'm removing some excess rock to allow more movement around the tank.

I was curious about the digging clownfish and whether they would be releasing uber harmful toxins into the tank?

I'm assuming that the existence of micro fauna is a good sign for beneficial bacteria.

I keep thinking back to earlier days when everything seemed to just be ok. It was all so much more simple.

 

[KrisReef]

@PranK
What you said;
"2 Crispa. sp anemones that look on deaths door (despite a third in my overflow tank that looks fantastic!)"
Makes me think:
The simplest difference between these two locations is probably oxygenation of the water (or possibly light)?

Oxygenation can be problematic in deep tanks, and the DSB could be sucking up a lot of O2 from the water column. I know you stated you have good circulation but have you measured O2? No need really, but I think I would make an effort to increase oxygenation of the water in the DT. HTH.

 

[MnFish1]

Hello R2R, I hope some of you can help me and my tank out.

(Units are inches, I am not sure of the gallons of each tank).

I have a 60x30x28 in wall tank. It drains to a 4ft sump in my garage. I have had this particular tank for about 8 years, before that it was a 72x24x24 and a 48x24x24 before that. Probably 15 years total between the 3 tanks.

I am lucky enough to be on the coast and I buy 1000L (250G) of fresh salt water every few months. I use the methodology behind Randy’s constant water change to change out about 3L (.75G) every day.

I also have a small 2ft cube that is plumbed into my system, it houses everything that has been evicted from the main display (including a super cool 14” brittle star).

As long as I’ve had tanks, I’ve tried to have as much rock as possible. This is a bit of an old fashioned mentality I guess. I’ve taken crap loads out of my system in the past 12 months and I probably have 80kg (176lbs) across the 3 tanks now.

I have a massive clump of Caulerpa and Chaeto in my refugium housing millions of pods, brittle stars, worms, etc. I prune it monthly. It sits over a heap of rock and 2 large bio pure bricks.

I have a big 100W (roughly) UV steriliser that I ran for 6 months while I had an outbreak of Flukes. Its been off now since maybe mid Feb.

I have a small bio pellet reactor, a Bubble Magus curve 9 and I drop in bags of GAC every few weeks. That is it for my filtration.

Now, here’s where I have been experimenting because I’ve been having such dud results.

The lights have been changed a lot. I’ve given the tank several months each time to get used to the changes though, nothing has been changed quickly.

Also, I’ve been reluctant to buy more lights until I see something flourishing under them which is why the mismatching.

I have a Gen 1 Radion, 3 x AI Primes and a Black Box. All the corals at the top (sps) are getting ~250 par (thanks to Seneye).

I have an MP40 on each side along with some Jebao wave makers to create some chaos and agitate the surface. Flow is really good and I can see a lot of movement everywhere I look.

Lastly, and here’s what I think is the biggie; I have a DSB in the display. It is probably 8” at the deepest.

In the tank I have 3 tangs, a fox face, a wrasse, a coral beauty, pair of maroons, 3 chromis, mandarin, bicolour blenny. Inverts include some shrimp and stars and a monster 3”+ bristle worm.

I have a heap of euphyllia, a symphyllia, some lobos, GSP, zoos, palys and a few SPS pieces.

I feed frozen food in the evening and thera+ in the morning. Saturdays get a dose of Reefroids and Fridays get 50mls of Acropower.

Numbers;

Ammonia; 0.002 (Seneye)
pH; 8.1 - 8.3 (Seneye)
Salinity; 1.026 (Hanna)
Phosphates; 0.3 - 0.4 (Hanna)
Alk; 8.3 (Hanna)
Nitrates; 10 (red sea)
Calcium; 460 (Hanna)
Mg; 1400 (Hanna)

Problems;

Nothing is happy.

Well, maybe not ’nothing’. Of the 6 euphyllias, there’s 2 maybe that look good, 3 that look ok and 1 that won’t extend at all.

I have a pocillopora that still has a little bit of colour, but almost no polyp extension. I’ve had a lot of acro colonies that look great for a few months, some even longer, with great polyp extension, then they succumb to F/S TN.
2 Crispa. sp anemones that look on deaths door (despite a third in my overflow tank that looks fantastic!)
Even my GSP has hardly any polyps out atm.
I do have a alveopora which is looking good, actually most of the things at sand level look ok. The rhodactus and symphyllia etc look ok.
I have a crap load of palys, I’ve been trying to kill them with kalk paste. Maybe this is causing problems?
Another issue I have is my clowns are digging in the sand and I’m curious if they’re potentially digging up bad crap into the water column?

I’m at work now so can take and send pics of anything you need when I get home.

I’m sorry for the big post, I was trying to include everything. My numbers are pretty good, my flow is great, my lighting is good. But, something is not right. I’d love any ideas or suggestions.

Thanks in advance.

Christian

Appreciate all of your detail.. I do not like dsb's. that said - when something is on deaths door - they can be releasing toxins.

 

[PranK]

@PranK
What you said;
"2 Crispa. sp anemones that look on deaths door (despite a third in my overflow tank that looks fantastic!)"
Makes me think:
The simplest difference between these two locations is probably oxygenation of the water (or possibly light)?

Oxygenation can be problematic in deep tanks, and the DSB could be sucking up a lot of O2 from the water column. I know you stated you have good circulation but have you measured O2? No need really, but I think I would make an effort to increase oxygenation of the water in the DT. HTH.

Well, my Seneye calculates the o2 for me and it's currently at 8.0. I dont know how accurate this is. I'm not sure how I could inject more or measure the current more accurately.

Appreciate all of your detail.. I do not like dsb's. that said - when something is on deaths door - they can be releasing toxins.

I'm anti dsb's now too but they were all the rage 10 years ago. We even hid the bottom 8" of the tank in the wall so we could hide the sand. I just can't see myself removing the sand any time soon, so solutions while keeping it are preferencial. :)

 

[KrisReef]

Cool, you do measure O2. Where in the tank does the probe sit (sorry, not familiar with using the monitor or your set-up)
If you can get a measurement from the deeper part of the tank, that might be interesting.

Also, I like Poly filters for mystery events and use them like carbon. The next test to ask for is ICP.

 

[PranK]

Cool, you do measure O2. Where in the tank does the probe sit (sorry, not familiar with using the monitor or your set-up)
If you can get a measurement from the deeper part of the tank, that might be interesting.

Also, I like Poly filters for mystery events and use them like carbon. The next test to ask for is ICP.

Oh, I forgot about my ICP results. They took ~7 weeks to return (being in Australia) but the only thing out of whack was a spike in Zinc. I should do another one and see.

My Seneye usually sits halfway down the display, but currently it's sitting almost on the substrate. Its worth noting that Seneye claim this as a 'calculated' O2. So, I don't know just how accurate it is.

 

[KrisReef]

@PranK

I looked up the meter and O2 is not a measurement of O2 but is a calculated theoretical maximum and not a measurement of O2.
Quote from the mfg site:
"The value shown on the seneye is the maximum theoretical level of dissolved oxygen in your tank, based on your other values that seneye measures. Therefore, it is a guide that can be used to show how the other parameters effect the maximum possible level in your water. We do not advertise the device to able to measure dissolved oxygen levels, but rather say that it is capable of calculating dissolved oxygen potential. A device that measures the true oxygen level in the water will report differently due to in measuring the actual amount as opposed to the theoretical maximum."

Yup, I guess I posted late. I suspect your DSB is removing O2 or releasing something that is irritating the corals, or there is something else being release perhaps from soft coral eradication? Poly filter, water change, clean the DSB, all a wild guess.

I don't recall where zinc contamination comes from, but someone will chime in #reefsquad

 

[PranK]

Ok cool, thanks for that.

I guess it'd be worthwhile being able to measure O2. I do have a heap of macro algae and lots of sand and bacteria etc ... Maybe not enough for skimmer and surface agitation to supply.

 

[NY_Caveman]

I did have a thread on Zinc in my ICP test where some folks including Randy Holmes-Farley shared some thoughts. FWIW

 

[PranK]

I did have a thread on Zinc in my ICP test where some folks including Randy Holmes-Farley shared some thoughts. FWIW

Thanks for this. I read this earlier in the year and it relaxed me a little, my reading was 19 µg/l. Close to double yours but Randy doesn't seem concerned by yours. I ran poly filter for a while after this reading.

I'm going to grab some purigen on the way home today. I'm almost convinced that I have some kind of toxin that is just existing in my water.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks vetteguy53081,
I absolutely believe you're right. I think that getting my flow right, surface agitation and some better 'tuned' lights and then just monitoring. I'm removing some excess rock to allow more movement around the tank.

I was curious about the digging clownfish and whether they would be releasing uber harmful toxins into the tank?

I'm assuming that the existence of micro fauna is a good sign for beneficial bacteria.

I keep thinking back to earlier days when everything seemed to just be ok. It was all so much more simple.[/

I highly recommended algae scrubber. Really buffed my water quality drastically

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks vetteguy53081,
I absolutely believe you're right. I think that getting my flow right, surface agitation and some better 'tuned' lights and then just monitoring. I'm removing some excess rock to allow more movement around the tank.

I was curious about the digging clownfish and whether they would be releasing uber harmful toxins into the tank?

I'm assuming that the existence of micro fauna is a good sign for beneficial bacteria.

I keep thinking back to earlier days when everything seemed to just be ok. It was all so much more simple.

The clowns may need a toy a/k/a- anemone

 

[PranK]

The digging could be causing chemical effect- water tests will confirm that. Also- I keep salinity at 1.026 and temp at 78/79.

Yep, same as me (79F = 26C).

The clowns may need a toy a/k/a- anemone

They have 3. All Crispa's. 2 of the Crispa's moved themselves more on the side rather than the top of a rock and it means the clowns are closer to the ground. As soon as this happened they started digging.

I have 2 nems and 1 fish in the overflow tank. I'm using the last nem to try and trap the final clown. The overflow tank has very little sand for them to dig anything up and they wont be able to bite me from in there. :)

 

[SPR1968]

I have 5 euphyllia corals, purchased at different times and their in different flow locations. I have about 7 alveoporas which are the same. Some of these in higher flow are 5 x the size of the ones in low flow, infact I keep meaning to move them! Lol

The ones in medium to higher flow have grown significantly more and look much happier than those in low flow parts, so this could be something else for you to maybe have a look into as your numbers look pretty good.

Maybe also check out your light spectrum, I use the settings below which is the Red Sea recommendation, but I go blue in the evening because I prefer that

With the zinc potential issue, if your stuck you could try a series of water changes, but I’m guessing the test may have recommended that anyway and you may have already done this

 

[SPR1968]

Just another thought, as I’ve just re read your original post, I notice your using natural sea water

Have you tried using your own artificial sea water with RODI ?

I’m just thinking the water is a major part of the system, and if there was something in it, a minor pollutant etc., this could be another potential issue.

 

[PranK]

Just another thought, as I’ve just re read your original post, I notice your using natural sea water

Have you tried using your own artificial sea water with RODI ?

I’m just thinking the water is a major part of the system, and if there was something in it, a minor pollutant etc., this could be another potential issue.

I've never considered using my own salt water. I was about to quote cost as a reason, but 1000L of NSW costs me $AUD120 and I've just looked up Aquaforest salt and worked out that if 345g makes 10L then a 22kg bucket should give me about 650L!! Thats pretty good. I just dont like how it says to use within 5 days.... That would be a ******* to have to mix it every week.

Thanks for your other post about light, I use a modified AB+ but because of the black box, I get a bit of a spike in red's. I might try to reduce that.