Metal Halide vs. LED Rates of Photosynthesis

[A. grandis]

data please



You are on a thread about some data that supports the opposite of the last thing you said explaining to LED users that their lights are inferior and you just know and that they are the offended ones.

Data on MH growth and shimmer? LOL! For what? What data?

I'm using your post to take advantage and say this:

Most metal halide users will hardly be aggressive towards LED users. Strangely most LED users have a tremendous tendency to be so hash on MH and T5 users trying to use anything they hear from others and LED propaganda. Some call that confirmation bias, a desperate way to aprove in their minds the investment they did. That also happens with different LED brands.
The reason why I post my experiences here and personal preferences is precisely because of that!
See... I was a T5 only user for more than a decade and still love the results of T5s. When I came to this forum saw some strangely aggressive reactions against metal halide and T5 only users. In my opinion and experiences metal halides are the very best we can offer to the corals to provide what they need in order to achieve results similar to what I see in nature. That is my goal, personally. This is the reason why public aquariums choose metal halides. The fact that I was using T5s didn't change the facts of those results of MHs. Unfortunately I do not like the results of LEDs at all.

I have more friends using LEDs than MH or T5s. They are my friends. Some of them, with years of experience, also know the limits of what they have (all 3 types of light have their limits for the results they provide!). Guess what? We hardly talk about lighting. LOL! We enjoy the time we meet to talk about our tanks in general. Even planted tanks, not only saltwater!

I would love to see people just realizing and respecting that we have some people here that simply choose the results from halides instead LEDs, period! Let them say good things about their lights! That is constructive and positive for this "hobby". I do not like when people diminish metal halides and spread rumors about them to promote LEDs! Shame on those people!

I will end this post saying that the reason I am aggressive towards LED users sometimes and call LEDs "Christmas lights" and "toy lights" is mainly to wake them up and tell them that they aren't the only ones in this world that can be aggressive, and this forum should be in the first place for every MH user, every T5 user, and every LED user. Equally!
I'll tell you more... LED users should be against the lies preached in favor of LED propaganda for high profit. Those type of information don't help the consumers, LED users.

Our opinions won't change.
Our preferences won't change!
Our attitude can change!

 

[A. grandis]

One more thing... bad or good, with all the stress here sometimes...
We are still a group of people that should be edifying each other.
Perhaps this thread, at this time, could be the beginning of a new chapter in this forum and we could speak freely about the lights we like and use without what's going on for so long. Nothing is impossible.
You guys know a bit about me.. I love you all anyways.
Even when I get ticked off! LOL!

 

[oreo54]

No, actually a little deeper than that, Oreo.
I'm talking about PIGMENT FORMATION, not maintenance or showing those pigments.
Whoever doesn't believe me can just call him cause I can't find the video now among so many on Face Book.
Everyone that has some actual experience with halides know that, Oreo.

I saw the whole thing.. Pretty interesting..
I'm more interesting in the fact that he states T5's and MH's have no (or very low) uv-a and the speculation is in Uv-b,c.
Of course there is the water absorption aspect but doesn't explain it.

https://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/144/m144p109.pdf

ZEISS Microscopy Online Campus | Metal Halide Lamps

Metal halide illumination sources are rapidly emerging as a serious challenger to the application of mercury and xenon arc lamps for investigations in fluorescence microscopy.

zeiss-campus.magnet.fsu.edu

Where is the UV b-c (200-320) ?
c = 200-280
Zero C small bit of b. T5's due to lower pressures will not even have that.
Where did the 400-350-ish go? Generally not filtered out by water.

How many micromoles affects what?
More questions than answers.
Hamilton "20000K" mh.

Something doesn't add up.

Playing With Poison – Ultraviolet Radiation

This article documents the results of an experiment designed to examine the effects of artificially-produced UVR on symbiotic zooxanthellae. We'll also examine inexpensive ways to test your system and, if necessary, corrective measures one can take.

reefs.com

His "torch" experiment is interesting but far from conclusive that it is caused by "UV".. or lack of.
Science isn't so easy..
It could be.
Could be par differences, some not measured quality ect.

BTW: "Black" algae are generally red algae not green algae.

Pigment formation is dependent on spectrum and intensity and which pigment.
IF I understood it right his "intensity" (PAR) was much higher under MH's than his coral cares.

How to Make Corals Colorful, Part One: New Information, With Particular Attention to Blue-Green Fluorescent Pigments

Light intensity and its spectral characteristics play important parts in promotion of coral coloration.

reefs.com

Lighting the Reef Aquarium Part 6 - Coral Coloration – A Primer •Orphek

Lighting the Reef Aquarium Part 6: Coral Coloration – A Primer By Dana Riddle ,This colorful Acropora species is not fluorescent – the proteins it contains preferentially reflect red and blue light, making it appear purple.

orphek.com

food for thought...

UV-C is unnatural..

Short-wavelength UVC is the most damaging type of UV radiation. However, it is completely filtered by the atmosphere and does not reach the earth's surface.

 

[Spare time]

Data on MH growth and shimmer? LOL! For what? What data?

I'm using your post to take advantage and say this:

Most metal halide users will hardly be aggressive towards LED users. Strangely most LED users have a tremendous tendency to be so hash on MH and T5 users trying to use anything they hear from others and LED propaganda. Some call that confirmation bias, a desperate way to aprove in their minds the investment they did. That also happens with different LED brands.
The reason why I post my experiences here and personal preferences is precisely because of that!
See... I was a T5 only user for more than a decade and still love the results of T5s. When I came to this forum saw some strangely aggressive reactions against metal halide and T5 only users. In my opinion and experiences metal halides are the very best we can offer to the corals to provide what they need in order to achieve results similar to what I see in nature. That is my goal, personally. This is the reason why public aquariums choose metal halides. The fact that I was using T5s didn't change the facts of those results of MHs. Unfortunately I do not like the results of LEDs at all.

I have more friends using LEDs than MH or T5s. They are my friends. Some of them, with years of experience, also know the limits of what they have (all 3 types of light have their limits for the results they provide!). Guess what? We hardly talk about lighting. LOL! We enjoy the time we meet to talk about our tanks in general. Even planted tanks, not only saltwater!

I would love to see people just realizing and respecting that we have some people here that simply choose the results from halides instead LEDs, period! Let them say good things about their lights! That is constructive and positive for this "hobby". I do not like when people diminish metal halides and spread rumors about them to promote LEDs! Shame on those people!

I will end this post saying that the reason I am aggressive towards LED users sometimes and call LEDs "Christmas lights" and "toy lights" is mainly to wake them up and tell them that they aren't the only ones in this world that can be aggressive, and this forum should be in the first place for every MH user, every T5 user, and every LED user. Equally!
I'll tell you more... LED users should be against the lies preached in favor of LED propaganda for high profit. Those type of information don't help the consumers, LED users.

Our opinions won't change.
Our preferences won't change!
Our attitude can change!

"Most metal halide users will hardly be aggressive towards LED users."

Lol what a joke. I often call MH users here metal halide supremacists because they hijake threads constantly (along with t5 users) to being debating this and saying how their product is superior. This happens frequently on the lighting threads, despite MH user not being asked about their opinion on MH or t5's. The reverse is very rare. Rarely on a thread where a person is asking about getting their MH does an LED person budge in and start harrassing everyone. The only case of this I can think of is when I told a guy I thought is t5 setup was not worth switching to MH as I argued the blanket of light his tank had was already ideal for an SPS dominant tank. However, I simply made the comment or two, then left, rather than making it a several page rant against the other option.


PS: Just found you doing what you just said most MH users don't do, go around attacking LED's whenever they get the chance and being aggressive about their lighting choice.

Just for Fun - The Perfect Spectrum

Thought I'd lost this file. Here's the spectrum that produced the highest growth in the stony coral Porites lobata. Running statistics on this and several other spectra revealed growths were not significantly different. But growths (as judged by weight) under this LED was highest. Again, just...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[A. grandis]

"Most metal halide users will hardly be aggressive towards LED users."

Lol what a joke. I often call MH users here metal halide supremacists because they hijake threads constantly (along with t5 users) to being debating this and saying how their product is superior. This happens frequently on the lighting threads, despite MH user not being asked about their opinion on MH or t5's. The reverse is very rare. Rarely on a thread where a person is asking about getting their MH does an LED person budge in and start harrassing everyone. The only case of this I can think of is when I told a guy I thought is t5 setup was not worth switching to MH as I argued the blanket of light his tank had was already ideal for an SPS dominant tank. However, I simply made the comment or two, then left, rather than making it a several page rant against the other option.


PS: Just found you doing what you just said most MH users don't do, go around attacking LED's whenever they get the chance and being aggressive about their lighting choice.

Just for Fun - The Perfect Spectrum

Thought I'd lost this file. Here's the spectrum that produced the highest growth in the stony coral Porites lobata. Running statistics on this and several other spectra revealed growths were not significantly different. But growths (as judged by weight) under this LED was highest. Again, just...

www.reef2reef.com

I've said most, not me! LOL!
Those who don't even come here, for sure.

 

[A. grandis]

I saw the whole thing.. Pretty interesting..
I'm more interesting in the fact that he states T5's and MH's have no (or very low) uv-a and the speculation is in Uv-b,c.
Of course there is the water absorption aspect but doesn't explain it.

https://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/144/m144p109.pdf

ZEISS Microscopy Online Campus | Metal Halide Lamps

Metal halide illumination sources are rapidly emerging as a serious challenger to the application of mercury and xenon arc lamps for investigations in fluorescence microscopy.

zeiss-campus.magnet.fsu.edu

Where is the UV b-c (200-320) ?
c = 200-280
Zero C small bit of b. T5's due to lower pressures will not even have that.
Where did the 400-350-ish go? Generally not filtered out by water.

How many micromoles affects what?
More questions than answers.
Hamilton "20000K" mh.

Something doesn't add up.

Playing With Poison – Ultraviolet Radiation

This article documents the results of an experiment designed to examine the effects of artificially-produced UVR on symbiotic zooxanthellae. We'll also examine inexpensive ways to test your system and, if necessary, corrective measures one can take.

reefs.com

His "torch" experiment is interesting but far from conclusive that it is caused by "UV".. or lack of.
Science isn't so easy..
It could be.
Could be par differences, some not measured quality ect.

BTW: "Black" algae are generally red algae not green algae.

Pigment formation is dependent on spectrum and intensity and which pigment.
IF I understood it right his "intensity" (PAR) was much higher under MH's than his coral cares.

How to Make Corals Colorful, Part One: New Information, With Particular Attention to Blue-Green Fluorescent Pigments

Light intensity and its spectral characteristics play important parts in promotion of coral coloration.

reefs.com

Lighting the Reef Aquarium Part 6 - Coral Coloration – A Primer •Orphek

Lighting the Reef Aquarium Part 6: Coral Coloration – A Primer By Dana Riddle ,This colorful Acropora species is not fluorescent – the proteins it contains preferentially reflect red and blue light, making it appear purple.

orphek.com

food for thought...

UV-C is unnatural..

He's got confused sometimes with some of the terms, yes... His experiences, in a practical way, and anecdotally speaking, matches almost 100% of the people that are reefing for many years. That is when experience matters.

 

[A. grandis]

Pigment formation is dependent on spectrum and intensity and which pigment.
IF I understood it right his "intensity" (PAR) was much higher under MH's than his coral cares.

How to Make Corals Colorful, Part One: New Information, With Particular Attention to Blue-Green Fluorescent Pigments

Light intensity and its spectral characteristics play important parts in promotion of coral coloration.

reefs.com

Lighting the Reef Aquarium Part 6 - Coral Coloration – A Primer •Orphek

Lighting the Reef Aquarium Part 6: Coral Coloration – A Primer By Dana Riddle ,This colorful Acropora species is not fluorescent – the proteins it contains preferentially reflect red and blue light, making it appear purple.

orphek.com

That's right, of course. And that is the main reason why halides will produce those pigments more than LEDs. Spectrum and intensity are more favorable from halides.
Is that an advantage? I would say so, by definition. Will the fact be changed because of any personal preferences or other "advantages" LEDs would offer, like emitting less infra red radiation, for example, or anything else? No.

Ps:

" ‘Hula Twist’:A bending of a pigment molecule resulting in a change of apparent color. Molecular bonds are not broken; therefore the pigment can shift back and forth, with movements reminiscent of a hula dancer."
Dana Riddle
Aloha!

 

[A. grandis]

My turn... food for thought:
Anecdotal experiences are the most important aspect of reef keeping. The scientific data is great to explain and to back up what actually happens in our tanks. One feeds the other, and that is what completes the whole view of what we actually know.

 

[Bpb]

The amount of waste produced by spent bulbs in this hobby is a blip in the grand scheme of things. We as a hobby could eradicate gas burning bulbs entirely and I would not expect any measurable impact on the environment…however one would measure such a concept, anyway

 

[oreo54]

My turn... food for thought:
Anecdotal experiences are the most important aspect of reef keeping. The scientific data is great to explain and to back up what actually happens in our tanks. One feeds the other, and that is what completes the whole view of what we actually know.

Anecdotal evidence ..
No uv, no halides, no t5.
Old tank.

therman's 12 year old SPS system...top down shot, starting to enjoy this tank again

I am not good at sharing images of my tanks. I'm terrible at keeping glass clean. I really enjoy seeing corals grow out into healthy colonies from small frags. On that note, this 36x36x18 tank was set up first in 2010, moved to a new house in 2012, and nearly crashed (due entirely to my...

www.reef2reef.com

Devils Advocate

 

[Nonya]

They new people in the hobby call that "pop".

So do people who've been in the hobby since the mid-90's who converted from hot halides to cool LEDs. That's when I first noticed the pop. Pop is awesome! I can't understand why people can't appreciate the fluorescent emissions of corals exposed to blue/violet light.

 

[Nonya]

The amount of waste produced by spent bulbs in this hobby is a blip in the grand scheme of things. We as a hobby could eradicate gas burning bulbs entirely and I would not expect any measurable impact on the environment…however one would measure such a concept, anyway

I know what you meant by gas burning (plasma-based), but it struck me as funny for a sec. My thought was to ask about diesel and coal burning bulbs.

 

[Shooter6]

No offense taken. But given the choice between growth without great pigmentation and great pigmentation, the choice is easy. Who cares about growing brown corals no matter how fast they grow?

And there you go with the salacious comments again. 14,18 and 20k do not produce brown coral pigmentation.

 

[Shooter6]

data please



You are on a thread about some data that supports the opposite of the last thing you said explaining to LED users that their lights are inferior and you just know and that they are the offended ones.

You said inferior, not I. I pointed out the benificial aspects of the 3 choices. Why that gets you all defensive is beyond me. You were on the thread where I posted multiple videos of the farmers who use all 3 options and them on video stating the reasons. Failed to absorb that info the first time?

 

[Bpb]

So do people who've been in the hobby since the mid-90's who converted from hot halides to cool LEDs. That's when I first noticed the pop. Pop is awesome! I can't understand why people can't appreciate the fluorescent emissions of corals exposed to blue/violet light.

For me it is less that I don’t appreciate fluorescence, but more that I dislike what heavy blue does for the rock, sand, fish, and most of all, the appearance of the entire room the tank is in. It’s nauseating

 

[Shooter6]

Data on MH growth and shimmer? LOL! For what? What data?

I'm using your post to take advantage and say this:

Most metal halide users will hardly be aggressive towards LED users. Strangely most LED users have a tremendous tendency to be so hash on MH and T5 users trying to use anything they hear from others and LED propaganda. Some call that confirmation bias, a desperate way to aprove in their minds the investment they did. That also happens with different LED brands.
The reason why I post my experiences here and personal preferences is precisely because of that!
See... I was a T5 only user for more than a decade and still love the results of T5s. When I came to this forum saw some strangely aggressive reactions against metal halide and T5 only users. In my opinion and experiences metal halides are the very best we can offer to the corals to provide what they need in order to achieve results similar to what I see in nature. That is my goal, personally. This is the reason why public aquariums choose metal halides. The fact that I was using T5s didn't change the facts of those results of MHs. Unfortunately I do not like the results of LEDs at all.

I have more friends using LEDs than MH or T5s. They are my friends. Some of them, with years of experience, also know the limits of what they have (all 3 types of light have their limits for the results they provide!). Guess what? We hardly talk about lighting. LOL! We enjoy the time we meet to talk about our tanks in general. Even planted tanks, not only saltwater!

I would love to see people just realizing and respecting that we have some people here that simply choose the results from halides instead LEDs, period! Let them say good things about their lights! That is constructive and positive for this "hobby". I do not like when people diminish metal halides and spread rumors about them to promote LEDs! Shame on those people!

I will end this post saying that the reason I am aggressive towards LED users sometimes and call LEDs "Christmas lights" and "toy lights" is mainly to wake them up and tell them that they aren't the only ones in this world that can be aggressive, and this forum should be in the first place for every MH user, every T5 user, and every LED user. Equally!
I'll tell you more... LED users should be against the lies preached in favor of LED propaganda for high profit. Those type of information don't help the consumers, LED users.

Our opinions won't change.
Our preferences won't change!
Our attitude can change!

You are arguing that mh are not superior in shimmer? Only led that's come close to matching shimmer it the kessil and it would take multiple of them over the same display that a single mh with reflector will to produce the same shimmer.

As for growth I posted multiple videos from multiple farmers explaining why they use mh for growth. Google works, youtube search works. I know you have seen those vids I posted already so posting them again is a waste of my time and energy.

 

[MnFish1]

Yeah, LEDs are bad for the environment. Fortunately, the production of ballasts for MH and fluorescents is environmentally safe. ;D

Did you mean etc. (et cetera)?

yes - etc.

 

[MnFish1]

You are arguing that mh are not superior in shimmer? Only led that's come close to matching shimmer it the kessil and it would take multiple of them over the same display that a single mh with reflector will to produce the same shimmer.

As for growth I posted multiple videos from multiple farmers explaining why they use mh for growth. Google works, youtube search works. I know you have seen those vids I posted already so posting them again is a waste of my time and energy.

I'm curious - what exactly is 'shimmer' and how is it produced more by MH than LED?

 

[BradB]

The ocean surface is rough, so refraction distorts light creating bright 'shimmer' lines in shallow water. A reef tank with good surface flow and a single metal halide will produce a similar affect. A VHO light over a tank is too diffuse to form these shimmer lines. LEDs are somewhat in the middle, individual LEDs are point sources and can be close enough together to produce shimmer lines, but not as strong as halides.

Since I got into reefing 25 years ago, people have claimed that the shimmer lines briefly expose coral to much brighter light than it normally would, and this is beneficial. I haven't seen any good evidence for this, and it certainly isn't necessary, as most wild coral is too deep for shimmer lines . It is also a matter of personal preference - I find the lines distracting looking at my tank a long time, but other people like that look.

 

[Nonya]

For me it is less that I don’t appreciate fluorescence, but more that I dislike what heavy blue does for the rock, sand, fish, and most of all, the appearance of the entire room the tank is in. It’s nauseating

Try shooter's glasses. They make the blue less noticeable, while maximizing the POP.