Metal Halides are the bomb
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A. grandis
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Feel free to try for yourself and prove me wrong!!
You don't even have a reef tank!
Or better... let us know if that has anything useful for any normal hobbyist's application.
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Bpb
2500 Club Member
@oreo5457 is Tom Barr still “the guy” for planted tanks or has he moved on? I’m sure there are new personalities at the top of the game now versus when I was into planted tanks. I know he was big time into T5’s. When I left planted tanks he was lighting his 120 gallon with an 8x54 watt ati sunpower at full blast.
Pretty sure he's still blasting t5's.
Lighting section at barr reports is err "dusty".
Besides the high par the 2d effect suits some styles more than others.
"Stressing" fw plants still works to color them up.
My newest guru..
T5 vs LED, which is better?
Is T5 or LED lighting better for a planted aquarium? The main advantage of LED over T5 lights is that it is more efficient, which will save cost (bulbs & power) in the long run. But picking the right commercial LED light can be tricky. Read on to learn more.
www.2hraquarist.com
Fine Tuning Light Spectrum
So, you have got the right light spectrum for your planted tanks. How can you boost plant colours further with your T5s or LEDs? Read on to find out more.
www.2hraquarist.com
SAME arguements in fw as in sw...
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minus9
5000 Club Member
In Alex's defense, Hawaii has strict rules and regulations concerning coral. I'll also add, it wasn't until I saw him during the live stream, that I truly understood his passion, which sometimes is lost in written word here on these forums. He and I are cut from the same cloth. And once you understand his passion, his mission statement really holds a lot of merit. I love led's, but they have a lot of catching up to do.
A. grandis
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I don't have SPS at home, but plenty experience at the Waikiki Aquarium since 1995 and in the ocean. Every time you provoke me I have to tell you to stop, man. Not nice. You know what that Apple looking pdf from EcoTech is about! Stop fulling around trying to defend the wrong stuff!
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A. grandis
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Thank you so much for the kind words!
Aloha!
infinite0180
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Fwiw, i switched to MH a few months ago. And even with some major issues with the transition (most of which are settling down now) i have noticed increased pH. My tank basically went through a mini cycle the past few months. Algae exploded, then cyano, corals had major issues. I went way too fast! I had to back off my lighting a ton! I cleaned the algae and nuked the cyano. Finally my Coralline is growing back! Beautiful purple is filling my tank! Coral are perking up and my clam looks good! All in all, i think it will be worth it!
Well I'm not alone....
Debating the use of LED's in Mike Paletta's new tank
ADMIN NOTE: This post and a number of posts under it were moved from Mike Paletta's build thread in order to keep that thread on topic. You can find that build thread here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-new-tank-by-mike-paletta.424677/...
www.reef2reef.com
A. grandis
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You are a trouble maker! What a joke!Well I'm not alone....
Debating the use of LED's in Mike Paletta's new tank
ADMIN NOTE: This post and a number of posts under it were moved from Mike Paletta's build thread in order to keep that thread on topic. You can find that build thread here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-new-tank-by-mike-paletta.424677/...
What is your goal doing this? Sell your LEDs in this thread?
I'm sorry Oreo, but this is evil, man!
Don't you have anything better to do?
What?! You want to tell people that LEDs are actually better than halides then? Like that pdf from Ecotech says?? Joking or what??? Haha!
You are a joke, man! I don't have you as an enemy, nor hate you at all, but I feel sorry for your attitude. Seriously?
My original message was sent directly to Mike Paletta. You know I didn't open that thread! Guess what?! Mike is still my friend. I have a great respect from him!
Have you noticed that every time you try to bring your junk around me you are the one that goes home smelling bad? Take a shower and cool down!
Change your attitude! Deal with the facts!
Thanks for posting the link for that thread here! That was one of the most delusional messages ever published by Mike Paletta.
Many people from that time went to the halides and T5s.
They actually thanked me for all the messages I've published back then. Ha!
Now I know that you possibly hate me. Guess what? I do not hate you!
Here:
Taking advantage... here is from my friend Greg:
Debating the use of LED's in Mike Paletta's new tank
Oh good lord another one of these LED attacks? On the other hand I gotta give him credit for being passionate, attacking something as silly as lighting over and over and over and over again even in the same threads. On the other hand it makes reef2reef a worse place to come for info and post...
www.reef2reef.com
Grege is trying Radions today. We are still friends!
I spend lots of time on this one:
Debating the use of LED's in Mike Paletta's new tank
So... This thread will be a repeat of dozens of others. A. Metal halides work well, but have disadvantages. B. T5 works well, but have disadvantages. C. LEDs work well, but have disadvantages. Each can work well, depending on usage & circumstances. +10000000000
www.reef2reef.com
This is the only person that actually understood the core of the message:
Debating the use of LED's in Mike Paletta's new tank
I do run multiple tanks one with MH and T5s which was converted to MH and Radions and 4 tanks with LED Only. My tanks with LED have different LEDs on them, a couple with only very old Razors which are by current standards not that good lights.guess what MHs work and that was proven years back...
www.reef2reef.com
I think you should open a thread called LEDs are the snappers!
Just a joke!
Stop provoking me, man! Haha!
Thanks for enriching this thread, Oreo.
Good night. Sweet dreams.
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You are a trouble maker! What a joke!
What is your goal doing this? Sell your LEDs in this thread?
I'm sorry Oreo, but this is evil, man!
Don't you have anything better to do?
What?! You want to tell people that LEDs are actually better than halides then? Like that pdf from Ecotech says?? Joking or what??? Haha!
You are a joke, man! I don't have you as an enemy, nor hate you at all, but I feel sorry for your attitude. Seriously?
My original message was sent directly to Mike Paletta. You know I didn't open that thread! Guess what?! Mike is still my friend. I have a great respect from him!
Have you noticed that every time you try to bring your junk around me you are the one that goes home smelling bad? Take a shower and cool down!
Change your attitude! Deal with the facts!
Thanks for posting the link for that thread here! That was one of the most delusional messages ever published by Mike Paletta.
Many people from that time went to the halides and T5s.
They actually thanked me for all the messages I've published back then. Ha!
Now I know that you possibly hate me. Guess what? I do not hate you!
Here:
Taking advantage... here is from my friend Greg:
Debating the use of LED's in Mike Paletta's new tank
Oh good lord another one of these LED attacks? On the other hand I gotta give him credit for being passionate, attacking something as silly as lighting over and over and over and over again even in the same threads. On the other hand it makes reef2reef a worse place to come for info and post...
Grege is trying Radions today. We are still friends!
I spend lots of time on this one:
Debating the use of LED's in Mike Paletta's new tank
So... This thread will be a repeat of dozens of others. A. Metal halides work well, but have disadvantages. B. T5 works well, but have disadvantages. C. LEDs work well, but have disadvantages. Each can work well, depending on usage & circumstances. +10000000000
This is the only person that actually understood the core of the message:
Debating the use of LED's in Mike Paletta's new tank
I do run multiple tanks one with MH and T5s which was converted to MH and Radions and 4 tanks with LED Only. My tanks with LED have different LEDs on them, a couple with only very old Razors which are by current standards not that good lights.guess what MHs work and that was proven years back...
I think you should open a thread called LEDs are the snappers!
Just a joke!
Stop provoking me, man! Haha!
Thanks for enriching this thread, Oreo.
Good night. Sweet dreams.
A. grandis
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You are the reason why many nice reefers have left this forum.
Don't you feel bad about that
Why don't you use your time to help the many LED threads with problems, if you can! Concentrate on that alone. But how could you help them if you've never had a reef tank, right?
You sure hope I would ignore you when you post against me, so the newbies will think you are right! Too bad!
Try to use your time to built some friendship with good TRUE info.
I know you can do it!
Results rule!
Don't you feel bad about that
Why don't you use your time to help the many LED threads with problems, if you can! Concentrate on that alone. But how could you help them if you've never had a reef tank, right?
You sure hope I would ignore you when you post against me, so the newbies will think you are right! Too bad!
Try to use your time to built some friendship with good TRUE info.
I know you can do it!
Results rule!
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Technically, that is their issue and really makes no sense.
Maybe they should go through ALL of my posts and show me the error of my ways.
There is very little that is threatening nor steps out of my self defined box.
Most could be considered more an FYI .
Show me ONE POST where I said anything like "LEDS are the bomb" or one where I denigrated halides with the one exception that those large reflectors are ugly.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder anyways.
BTW congratulations. Do you know how hard it is to get 30 plus people to thumbs up a comment on a forum?
Maybe you need to modify your style
You mean like someone who goes on a crusade to champion halides and teardown LED's at every opportunity? Just a hypothetical possibility...
Must you in every thread that mentions LEDs?
Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
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I swear you work for Hamilton.
BTW since this is from a vendor and using your criteria..it is all lies and marketing.
A. grandis
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Haha! You have absolutely nothing better to do in your life!
Thanks for showing me that page at the Hamilton's website!!!
I've never saw that before.
I congratulate Dave for posting something like that.
I do not work for any aquarium company at all!!!
Love it! I'm going to post here:
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The Proven Best Lighting Solution for your Aquarium
Top reasons why Metal Halides with T5 HO is superior lighting for a reef tank to even the most “high end” LEDs currently available to hobbyists and why so many hobbyists have already switched back or are switching back:• Much Better Coral Growth (especially SPS corals) – This is a big one and we hear it all the time. Metal halides with T5 provide hobbyists with simply better results in terms of coral growth. Quicker and more sustained coral growth especially SPS corals (small polyp stony corals). Healthier corals with better polyp extension. This is just a fact. While LEDs will grow coral, they simply do not grow acropora at anywhere near the rate or success as metal halides do. It's not even close. Growth from LEDs is limited to mainly on top of the coral only - not inside the coral and underneath. The lack of light inside the coral decreases growth and can lead to their mortality. When you switch to Metal Halide + T5 it reverses their decline from LEDs and show massive improvement in coral health. So, if you are thinking of having a mixed reef aquarium, an SPS dominant aquarium or want to keep any type of acropora and you want the best results for that tank – Metal Halides are by far the superior lighting solution to LEDs.
• Better Coral Color and Intensity – Many hobbyists who have used all types of lighting tell us they simply have better color out of their fish and corals, especially SPS, under the right metal halide and T5 lighting combination. The glow and the hue from acropora under Metal Halide with T5 cannot be matched by LEDs. Fish and coral stand out more. Your coral colors are much more true.
• No Disco Ball Effect – Many LED tanks often have that “disco ball” effect. The shimmer in the tank looks unnatural. It appears you’ve landed in Studio 54 or in the middle of a rave party. Some tanks are just difficult to look at because of a lack of light blend. You end up seeing the individual colors of the LEDs in your sand bed. Lame! You don’t get that with metal halide with T5. With metal halides, you have a more natural “quality” sunlight effect. Metal Halides give the tank a more aesthetically pleasing shimmer effect without the disco ball look.
• No Shadowing Problems like with LEDs – Even the most “high end” LEDs create shadowing in your corals. This is a major problem of LEDs. You don’t get this when you use metal halides with T5. This is because Metal halides with T5 give you a better light spread versus LEDs and you do NOT have any shadowing problem like with LEDs. LEDs are intense directly under the diode (hotspots which create stressed, oddly shaped corals) but lose their intensity much quicker as you spread out only just a few inches from the center and don’t cover an aquarium as well as metal halide with T5 leading to this shadowing problem. With metal halide and T5, you have no shadowing underneath or inside your corals like you do with LEDs. You see all parts to your corals better with no shadowing.
• Electrical Savings - NOT what it is made out to be with LEDs – this is because with LEDs, heaters are often running all day long. This is often overlooked. The result of a 200 – 500 watt heater on all day really adds up! This added power consumption negates the expected cost savings in electricity you thought you were getting by using LEDs.
• LEDs often require TWICE the number of units than their MFG recommendation – It’s true. If you want to limit the shadowing from LEDs in SPS tanks and if you want SPS corals to grow like they do under metal halides, you need to purchase TWICE as many LED lights as what the manufacturers suggest. You need to blanket your tank with LEDs to get the same coverage as you do with metal halides. This is because with metal halides you have a much better light spread and more thorough coverage in your aquarium. LEDs are intense directly under the light but quickly lose par as you leave just inches from their center. This leads to shadowing, lack of color and less coral growth. You could end up spending $5,000 on “high end” LEDs or get better results and spend only $1,000 on metal halides with T5.
• Upfront Costs are much Higher with LEDs - if you do achieve any cost savings with LEDs, it generally will take several years at least before you see a breakeven point. At that time, you will probably want to upgrade your LEDs to a different, “latest and greatest” which will cost you even more money to do so and that’s if your LED light is still working! How many times have we heard LEDs last “50,000” hours yet with even the “high end” LEDs several of the diodes in their systems fail within 1-2 years. Most LED companies who say their light lasts "50,000" hours give you only a 1 year warranty on their product!
• Set It and Forget It – with metal halide and T5 lighting, you don’t have to continuously “dial in” your settings to find the right look for your tank like you do with high end LEDs. With metal halide and T5, it is a simple plug and play system to enjoy the results. It is much more user friendly. You have dawn to dusk lighting and you don’t have to consistently worry about finding the right look from your LED. You simply plug it iin and get true coral color, a pop to your tank and a natural shimmer effect in your water.
For the past 7 years, we have heard “LEDs are good but they are not 'there yet'". When are they going to be “there”? At this point and after all this time, it’s not going to happen. We’ve waited long enough for LEDs to top Metal Halides and they just haven’t. Metal Halides + T5 is just a better lighting solution for a reef aquarium especially if you plan on keeping SPS and acropora.
If you care about your tank enough to have the best lighting over it, you will choose MH + T5 over LEDs.
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OMG!!!! Love it!!!
That alone deserves a new thread to open the eyes of this new generation!!! LOL!!!
Wait... you must work for EcoTech then!
A. grandis
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Thanks, oreo!
www.reef2reef.com
The Proven Best Lighting Solution for your Aquarium
The Proven Best Lighting Solution for your Aquarium Top reasons why Metal Halides with T5 HO is superior lighting for a reef tank to even the most “high end” LEDs currently available to hobbyists and why so many hobbyists have already switched back or are switching back: • Much Better...
www.reef2reef.com
Turd Ferguson
Community Member
Yeah, i went from T5 to 14k 250w MH on my 40G. Everything was groovy although hammer and frogspawn were stressed (7hr light cycle, 8-9 inches off the water. Clove polyps were hurting, likewise anacropora. i has a beautiful purple monti cap that died within a coupleafter 4 months under MH things were just kinda blah.
2 weeks ago I switched back to T5 and sent a water sample out for a ICP test. I’m wondering if the issues stem from water quality versus lighting. It thought I’d try lower light levels and see what happens. If the test comes back with bad reading I might throw the MH back on...some of the encrusting corals thrived, likewise birdsnest...and my preference has always been MH although I’m worried about frying coral. Last time I used MH was 15 years ago on a 75G...everything thrived And grew like weeds.
Also lost a number of SPS. I’m wondering if it’s because all the frags are aquaculture under LED, generation over generation, and just not accustomed to par ranging from 250-600?
the LFS says I’m cooking my tank... hence my issues, maybe, but 15-20 years ago halides were the go to...and I never even though of trying a PAR meter. I sometimes wonder if LFS just have never had experience with halides. Lame IMO, as undoubtedly, they are the best light source.
And.. since going back to T5 ph dropped, big time. kinda bummed, I really want the MH back on. Maybe I’ll give it another go tomorrow.
minus9
5000 Club Member
I'm not here to debate, but rather enjoy a healthy discussion about this hobby. I think passions get the best of us sometimes and it comes out in a not so friendly way. I really encourage people to take a step back and think before you type. We are adults here and need to help each other and also learn from each other, which is the point of having forums like R2R.
The fact is, we have come so far in this hobby, but there are some things that haven't changed or haven't truly advanced in the way they should have and lighting is one of them.
I absolutely love led's, but I agree with Alex here, they don't compare to the gold standard, yet. I really want them to, they're getting closer, but they're not there. Until that day comes, the gold standard is and will always be metal halides with T5's. I think MH with led's are next up (and my next choice in lighting), but that's my personal preference and it's based on nearly 40 years in this hobby.
I'm not saying MH need to be over softie tanks, but if you're keeping sps, there's no substitute at this time.
I'll also add, the ad from Hamilton is spot on. Here's some reality for you.
Take my tank for example. It's a shallow 90g 36x36x16 and I'm currently using 9 fixtures, yes, NINE. And I'm still getting shadowing in spots. That's 645 watts of electricity for 8hrs and probably 2/3 of that for the remaining 4hrs. That's not efficiency, that's a lot of wasted energy. I can put two 250w fixtures over my tank for 4 to 6hrs and run some led's for dusk / dawn the remaining time and get better results. So how are led's better than halides in this situation? I can see the argument for led's in mixed and softie tanks where growth isn't a concern and you want to show off the blue lights, but for sps, no, they simply can't compete with halides yet. I don't have a dog or horse in this race, but I'm not trying to put the cart before the horse either. Here's my best analogy, comparing led's to halides, it's the same as comparing mp3's to 2" tape thru a console. Kids these days have no reference to true analog music and it's the same with reef lighting. If you have no reference, then how can you compare?
Just something to think about. Remember, be kind and don’t be afraid to listen and learn, as we can all learn from each other at every stage of our lives. To give up on learning, is to give up on life. Or just sit back and have a tasty beverage and enjoy the show.
A. grandis
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Adaptation sometimes takes months, depending on how long you had those corals, and the whole system, under other type of light. It doesn't work fast. Just put in your mind that the corals will need approximately the same intensity you were having from your LEDs to start the adaptation process, then increase. It's basically impossible to offer the same intensity if you can't control with the halides. So you will need to raise the fixture to decrease intensity and at the same time offer a very short period of time for them to adjust. It's a very slow process.
Turd Ferguson
Community Member
My challenge is I’ve not supplementary lighting, so if I run for say 3 hours, lights are off for the remainder of the day. And that’s dang boring. Years ago I went from PC to MH, no acclimation...but every store ran halides back then.
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