Metal Halides Making a Come Back? Don’t call it a come back?

[KC2020]

Anecdotally I’ve heard that growers in particular have started to use them more commonly

Anecdotally what you hear means very little. It's inherent in the limited cross section of discussions you can read or participate in. Your survey is going to be ignored by a large number of users because it's a topic that's been rehashed so many times so that limits the anecdotes significiantly.

Why don't you instead contact all the coral growers that advertise on R2R and see what they say ?

 

[oreo54]

 

[KC2020]

Battlecorals is in Southern Wisconsin close to the Illinois border. I know electricity is a little cheaper there than it is for me in Southern California and the annual average ambient temperature is a lot lower too.

His cost to continue to run MH is a lot less than upgrading. He has the ballasts, fixtures and a good inventory of bulbs. Plus he's running bulbs for 3 years, well beyond their optimal output but they still work so it's cheaper than anything else. And he's using T5s with them which he's trying to get rid of.

His newer systems use Reefbreeders LEDs and he started using them with their first generation a few years ago so he hasn't been investing in more MH for years.

The conclusion I would draw is he's a business man looking at operating costs. I don't think his preference is based on the quality of light but the cost of light. That's a no brainer and a smart business decision.

I grew up about 150 miles north of him. I used Iwasaki 6500K 45 years ago. I never had to run air conditioning, a fan or two maybe 3 months out of the year. They grew corals very well, ugly and brown, but they grew fast. Then came T5 and actinic bulbs came along and suddenly corals had color.

 

[plippert21]

Battlecorals is in Southern Wisconsin close to the Illinois border. I know electricity is a little cheaper there than it is for me in Southern California and the annual average ambient temperature is a lot lower too.

His cost to continue to run MH is a lot less than upgrading. He has the ballasts, fixtures and a good inventory of bulbs. Plus he's running bulbs for 3 years, well beyond their optimal output but they still work so it's cheaper than anything else. And he's using T5s with them which he's trying to get rid of.

His newer systems use Reefbreeders LEDs and he started using them with their first generation a few years ago so he hasn't been investing in more MH for years.

The conclusion I would draw is he's a business man looking at operating costs. I don't think his preference is based on the quality of light but the cost of light. That's a no brainer and a smart business decision.

I grew up about 150 miles north of him. I used Iwasaki 6500K 45 years ago. I never had to run air conditioning, a fan or two maybe 3 months out of the year. They grew corals very well, ugly and brown, but they grew fast. Then came T5 and actinic bulbs came along and suddenly corals had color.

Super cool and interesting!

 

[plippert21]

Alright, to summarize most think MH usage is declining with some holdouts. Folks have proposed that this decline is a result of lack of knowledge and options on the market a with most R&D capital being spent on LEDs.

 

[oreo54]

Battlecorals is in Southern Wisconsin close to the Illinois border. I know electricity is a little cheaper there than it is for me in Southern California and the annual average ambient temperature is a lot lower too.

His cost to continue to run MH is a lot less than upgrading. He has the ballasts, fixtures and a good inventory of bulbs. Plus he's running bulbs for 3 years, well beyond their optimal output but they still work so it's cheaper than anything else. And he's using T5s with them which he's trying to get rid of.

His newer systems use Reefbreeders LEDs and he started using them with their first generation a few years ago so he hasn't been investing in more MH for years.

The conclusion I would draw is he's a business man looking at operating costs. I don't think his preference is based on the quality of light but the cost of light. That's a no brainer and a smart business decision.

I grew up about 150 miles north of him. I used Iwasaki 6500K 45 years ago. I never had to run air conditioning, a fan or two maybe 3 months out of the year. They grew corals very well, ugly and brown, but they grew fast. Then came T5 and actinic bulbs came along and suddenly corals had color.

The "quality" of light determines the quality of his product. Also the speed to that quality is part of his bottom line.

And yea a "farm" is not your living room so the "goals" can be quite different.

As to the fact he has 10 yrs of bulbs saved up makes him a pretty poor customer to
save the metal halide market.
Sadly this stockpile mentality seems common.

And another factor was briefly mentioned
the convience of LEDs. Bolting in a Radio is much easier than suspending a mh or t5.

That vid contained a lot to unpack really.
As a side note I've " observed" few if any used 6500k Iwasaki equivalents in LEDs.
High cri full spectrum high par without lenses using the native 120- ish degrees they usually come with and compared.
Mostly because manuf. haven't catered to that niche market.

There are few white LEDs that have a close match to the Iwasakis. Even the close ones would need some supplementary "colors".
Then again how many run or frankly want to run 6500k mh's alone? Even historically they are not an alone light. Vho' s, t5's leds..both for visual and also to combat the mh shadows ( yes Virginia they do produce harsh shadows).

 

[A. grandis]

Seriously... no one can predict anything at the moment! We are literally in the middle of the storm, and it will clear up only when someone decides to invest in making a new line of fixtures and ballasts! The first company will push the rest.

 

[A. grandis]

Whatever anyone say, it will only reflect on their personal opinions at that moment. Adam is very inconsistent talking about lighting to say the least. Kinda confused, or he doesn't even care much. At least that is what I understand from different interviews. When people start to get into the real qualities of each technology and the results, or some serious article is published, without much bias, they will be able to have their solid opinion. When the results are based only on aesthetics or they don't really care about the subject, not even by searching a bit to be able to mention comparisons, then their opinions don't matter. Changing all the time shows it's not an important subject to them.

 

[A. grandis]

Alright, to summarize most think MH usage is declining with some holdouts. Folks have proposed that this decline is a result of lack of knowledge and options on the market a with most R&D capital being spent on LEDs.

There is not many people qualified to even think about answering this survey at the moment without some solid numbers. There are things to be considered like the influences of the poison added to the marketing by LED manufacturers and some online stores against halides, for example. The sponsorship investments of LED companies exploded their popularity brainwashing the public in the past decade! The consideration of percentage of growth in numbers of halide users in comparison to what it once was. Also, the growth is coming from almost zero, which makes that percentage insignificant in comparison. The growth depends on investments and those need to emerge first. Not much to say at the moment besides that.
To put in consideration, there is a brand new metal halide company that was launched in the beginning of 2024 called Aqua Bright Solutions that sells metal halide lamps. They are noticing the growth of sales each day that goes by and they are considering the possibility of making new fixtures and ballasts, if the demand continue to grow.
There is absolutely no comparison between LEDs and halides, The results are tremendous!!!! Halide/T5 is like having the sun and sky light at home. Period. That is my personal opinion!

 

[oreo54]

Whatever anyone say, it will only reflect on their personal opinions at that moment. Adam is very inconsistent talking about lighting to say the least. Kinda confused, or he doesn't even care much. At least that is what I understand from different interviews. When people start to get into the real qualities of each technology and the results, or some serious article is published, without much bias, they will be able to have their solid opinion. When the results are based only on aesthetics or they don't really care about the subject, not even by searching a bit to be able to mention comparisons, then their opinions don't matter. Changing all the time shows it's not an important subject to them.

Adam loves Iwasakis .What's to not understand.
For years I've never argued against that particular bulb.
I've also implied nobody seriously ever designed an Iwasaki substitute in led. The " blue glow" took over and face it the 6500k look isn't THAT appealing.

Also had many reasons, heat ( for him) ,ease, and they work for supporting Reef breeders

And of course he won't be buying any bulbs and from the sound of it ballasts if they fail. I'll assume he's running m80's so couldn't replace them if he wanted to. Of course being simple magnetics not much to break.

Then again, shallow tanks, lights up high not exactly " hobby style"..

He " sold" the reefbreeders qualities to therman. His results are easily seen.

My point though has always been there are numerous tipping points that one will use to decide which tech is what they want.
Currently and for most the mh side isn't exactly heavy.

When the results are based only on aesthetics or they don't really care about the subject

Now statements like that are an issue.
Regardless of tech chosen I'm pretty sure people " really care"...

Manufacturers will determine if it's worth it to batch reef centric mh's. But pretty sure it will be just that..batch here, batch there.
Same on retail supply.
Well there ya eBay.

Nothing wrong with that except with our need it now attitudes. Another uphill battle.

 

[19Mateo83]

I would throw halides on my tank with the quickness if there was a readily available supply of phoenix 14k bulbs for the foreseeable future. As led’s continue to push forward the halides will eventually go the way of the dinosaurs.

 

[oreo54]

They are noticing the growth of sales each day that goes by and they are considering the possibility of making new fixtures and ballasts, if the demand continue to grow.
There is absolutely no comparison between LEDs and halides,

Same thing the orig. Hamilton said.... yet .. here we are..

 

[A. grandis]

The "quality" of light determines the quality of his product. Also the speed to that quality is part of his bottom line.

And yea a "farm" is not your living room so the "goals" can be quite different.

As to the fact he has 10 yrs of bulbs saved up makes him a pretty poor customer to
save the metal halide market.
Sadly this stockpile mentality seems common.

And another factor was briefly mentioned
the convience of LEDs. Bolting in a Radio is much easier than suspending a mh or t5.

That vid contained a lot to unpack really.
As a side note I've " observed" few if any used 6500k Iwasaki equivalents in LEDs.
High cri full spectrum high par without lenses using the native 120- ish degrees they usually come with and compared.
Mostly because manuf. haven't catered to that niche market.

There are few white LEDs that have a close match to the Iwasakis. Even the close ones would need some supplementary "colors".
Then again how many run or frankly want to run 6500k mh's alone? Even historically they are not an alone light. Vho' s, t5's leds..both for visual and also to combat the mh shadows ( yes Virginia they do produce harsh shadows).

Sometimes I wonder if these types of info you write here are really what you think. Then I remember that you were never able to even try any of the lights over a reef tank, because you never had one yet.
Anyways, please try to elaborate what you just said...
How in the world anyone could imagine that any LED you choose "have a close match to the Iwasakis"? Is it about that Kyocea from Japan? Are you out of your mind??? Even Jake, who defended LEDs at any time, would tell you better, by practical experience.
Independent of people using them or not. Any 10K halide lamp will look great with Blue T5s and show a close comparison to Iwasakis. Anyways...

 

[Paris by Night]

Battlecorals is in Southern Wisconsin close to the Illinois border. I know electricity is a little cheaper there than it is for me in Southern California and the annual average ambient temperature is a lot lower too.

His cost to continue to run MH is a lot less than upgrading. He has the ballasts, fixtures and a good inventory of bulbs. Plus he's running bulbs for 3 years, well beyond their optimal output but they still work so it's cheaper than anything else. And he's using T5s with them which he's trying to get rid of.

His newer systems use Reefbreeders LEDs and he started using them with their first generation a few years ago so he hasn't been investing in more MH for years.

The conclusion I would draw is he's a business man looking at operating costs. I don't think his preference is based on the quality of light but the cost of light. That's a no brainer and a smart business decision.

I grew up about 150 miles north of him. I used Iwasaki 6500K 45 years ago. I never had to run air conditioning, a fan or two maybe 3 months out of the year. They grew corals very well, ugly and brown, but they grew fast. Then came T5 and actinic bulbs came along and suddenly corals had color.

Agreed. If I remember correctly in a past podcast with Reef bum he said that for a dream tank he would go with LEDT5. Well, the conversation is about farming when it comes to him, it is still apparent in his answer, but he did not bring up halide.

 

[A. grandis]

Adam loves Iwasakis .What's to not understand.
For years I've never argued against that particular bulb.
I've also implied nobody seriously ever designed an Iwasaki substitute in led. The " blue glow" took over and face it the 6500k look isn't THAT appealing.

Also had many reasons, heat ( for him) ,ease, and they work for supporting Reef breeders

And of course he won't be buying any bulbs and from the sound of it ballasts if they fail. I'll assume he's running m80's so couldn't replace them if he wanted to. Of course being simple magnetics not much to break.

Then again, shallow tanks, lights up high not exactly " hobby style"..

He " sold" the reefbreeders qualities to therman. His results are easily seen.

My point though has always been there are numerous tipping points that one will use to decide which tech is what they want.
Currently and for most the mh side isn't exactly heavy.


Now statements like that are an issue.
Regardless of tech chosen I'm pretty sure people " really care"...

Manufacturers will determine if it's worth it to batch reef centric mh's. But pretty sure it will be just that..batch here, batch there.
Same on retail supply.
Well there ya eBay.

Nothing wrong with that except with our need it now attitudes. Another uphill battle.

Of couse you can't argue about the Iwasakis! LOL! The guy is confused. He doesn't want to leave the halides. He doesn't have a solid opinion on quality of light. There is a very important aspect that I respect from his company: he keeps the same corals under the 3 different types of technologies (halides, T5s and LEDs). The customer can choose where their frags were placed under when the purchase. That is mainly the reason he is probably showing his "confusing thoughts".
ReefBreeders ?!?... not even if you send me some for free!!!!

 

[A. grandis]

Same thing the orig. Hamilton said.... yet .. here we are..

Those guys WERE from Hamilton and the reason why they oppened their new company was because of that growing demand! Would you invest in something that will fail??

 

[oreo54]

Sometimes I wonder if these types of info you write here are really what you think. Then I remember that you were never able to even try any of the lights over a reef tank, because you never had one yet.
Anyways, please try to elaborate what you just said...
How in the world anyone could imagine that any LED you choose "have a close match to the Iwasakis"? Is it about that Kyocea from Japan? Are you out of your mind??? Even Jake, who defended LEDs at any time, would tell you better, by practical experience.
Independent of people using them or not. Any 10K halide lamp will look great with Blue T5s and show a close comparison to Iwasakis. Anyways...

Nobodys built one... ever AFAICT.
There was little incentive.. the "blue craze" w. Royal blue leds drown it out..
OK using ONLY science..
Here is a Iwasaki killer.. See any fixtures even CLOSE to emulating it?Whites alone are capable of 18000 lumens easily and as "full spectrum" as you can get with one led
In "my opinion" the poor quality whites and not understanding the addition of cyan and some other band ratios is the major factors dooming most LEDs from being "equivalent"
At the time the build would have been fairly cheap.. in the $40o range. May have needed fans .
Point is using physics and yes somewhat ignoring UV/IR though the 385's add some.
The Hylux I believe was the "terrestrial" 6500k

 

[A. grandis]

Agreed. If I remember correctly in a past podcast with Reef bum he said that for a dream tank he would go with LEDT5. Well, the conversation is about farming when it comes to him, it is still apparent in his answer, but he did not bring up halide.

Yup... in addition... he said he "always goes back to T5s", as they have something no other has. Again, all 3 technologies have something the others don't have. So...

 

[oreo54]

Those guys WERE from Hamilton and the reason why they oppened their new company was because of that growing demand! Would you invest in something that will fail??

Sorry there was a company.. why a new one?

 

[oreo54]

Again, all 3 technologies have something the others don't have. So...

Soo no one tech beats them all.. LOL
Each has their weaknesses..
Of course you can sort of have it all w/ led.. "sun" pucks and diffuse bars..
Sorry couldn't resist.