Micro bubbles scrubbing DT

ageno125

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I've been seeing this a lot lately for some reason. Any of you try this?

The idea is to place a lime wood air stone near the return with a supply of fresh air and blast the DT tiny air bubbles. Helping clean the coral and promote good bacteria growth.
 

Mandelstam

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I've been seeing this a lot lately for some reason. Any of you try this?

The idea is to place a lime wood air stone near the return with a supply of fresh air and blast the DT tiny air bubbles. Helping clean the coral and promote good bacteria growth.
Interested in this too. Every thread I've read they claim good results but it's all very anecdotal and just "it works! Corals are sliming up! Tank looks great!" kind of thing. Or it's the "I swear by this method, it's awesome! I've been running it for three days and everything looks great!" answer.
 

ca1ore

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Is this the reef tank equivalent of 'scrubbing bubbles' LOL. Frankly sounds absurd to me and I cannot imagine exactly how it would work to clean anything. It would make a mess though.
 

wattson

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it works.,,you just have to be consistant with it and export all the junk out of the system afterwards,,biggest thing is how set it up to your system for max coverage /benefit
 

Cruz_Arias

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Please feel free to check this video out... :)

It explains the benefits this reefer was able to observe. She applied the concept incorrectly first... then tried again utilizing the setup Elegant Corals had described...

 

Zack K

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Is this the reef tank equivalent of 'scrubbing bubbles' LOL. Frankly sounds absurd to me and I cannot imagine exactly how it would work to clean anything. It would make a mess though.

Not only does it oxygenate the water immensely, but it also grabs organics from rocks, corals, substrate, fish, and brings them to the water surface where they can be removed by filtration.

-Zack
 

Cruz_Arias

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Yeah... I kinda felt like after several years of various reefers, that I did not personally know, showing results that it was time to jump back in, Zack... LOL :)

Different systems, different corals, different fish and inverts... and still those who are using the method are showing success.

Well stated in your comment, sir.

:)

Not only does it oxygenate the water immensely, but it also grabs organics from rocks, corals, substrate, fish, and brings them to the water surface where they can be removed by filtration.

-Zack
 

ca1ore

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Not only does it oxygenate the water immensely, but it also grabs organics from rocks, corals, substrate, fish, and brings them to the water surface where they can be removed by filtration.

I'm highly suspicious that it would make any difference at all to the oxygenation; has anyone actually measured it (it would actually be quite easy to measure)? It's a long held misunderstanding that airstones, for example, directly oxygenate the water - they do not. What they do is to promote circulation in the tank to bring stale water to the gas exchange surface. It's surprising to me that this myth still perpetuates. I suppose if one's tank were woefully under circulated scrubbing-bubbles might make a difference, but not in a properly circulated system. I also find it borderline absurd that these bubbles somehow enhance organics removal. This is a much trickier thing to measure, though long term nitrate levels could be a way to do it. Again, in a poorly circulated tank, organics build up might be problematic, but essentially turning your tank into a huge protein skimmer just seems like it would make a massive mess when better circulation would accomplish the same thing. None of this passes the common sense test to me. As the old saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm still waiting for some of the latter - beyond unreliable personal anecdotes, that is.
 

Scott Campbell

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I'm highly suspicious that it would make any difference at all to the oxygenation; has anyone actually measured it (it would actually be quite easy to measure)? It's a long held misunderstanding that airstones, for example, directly oxygenate the water - they do not. What they do is to promote circulation in the tank to bring stale water to the gas exchange surface. It's surprising to me that this myth still perpetuates. I suppose if one's tank were woefully under circulated scrubbing-bubbles might make a difference, but not in a properly circulated system. I also find it borderline absurd that these bubbles somehow enhance organics removal. This is a much trickier thing to measure, though long term nitrate levels could be a way to do it. Again, in a poorly circulated tank, organics build up might be problematic, but essentially turning your tank into a huge protein skimmer just seems like it would make a massive mess when better circulation would accomplish the same thing. None of this passes the common sense test to me. As the old saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm still waiting for some of the latter - beyond unreliable personal anecdotes, that is.

Airstones will certainly oxygenate water. They are simply not especially efficient as the bubbles rise quite rapidly leaving very little contact time between the air bubble and the water in the aquarium.
 

wattson

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micro bubbling is pretty much the same concept here in this video of the natural flow of water and the heavy saturation of air bubbles in the water to clean and oxygenate the corals environment..many little scrubbing bubbles in the natural ocean..I actually had to slow down micro bubbling in my system due to water was starting to be too clean for zoas/palys..
No one can argue with Mother Natures thinking..
 

Cruz_Arias

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The smaller and finer the bubbles, the less buoyancy the bubbles have and the greater surface area (gas to liquid interface) the cumulative amount of bubbles
has.... hence the efficiency of gas exchange is exponentially increased.


105665025_384.jpg



Airstones will certainly oxygenate water. They are simply not especially efficient as the bubbles rise quite rapidly leaving very little contact time between the air bubble and the water in the aquarium.
 

Cruz_Arias

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Brownian motion happens in the smallest and finest bubbles... this allows for longer dwell time and contact time in the water column...

Please see attached illustration:

Complete-Brownian.jpg
 

KJAG

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This is common practice in my other hobby of deep water culture(hydroponics.)
But in that realm most are simply using covered reservoirs with no overflows etc with the water as the growing medium. Personally skeptical how microbubbles on room air are oxygenating water more efficiently than a tank with a large turnover and a proper overflow such as a coast to coast or at least one that allows for some degree of surface skimming, as a huge percentage of the water is experiencing gas exchange as it travels up and over the overflow. Injecting with 100% 02 via a D cylinder would support a more viable argument however (IMO)
 

Cruz_Arias

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Because in a closed room or a home, it is typically ladened with higher levels of CO2...
As the water is agitated with higher levels of CO2 than O2, the water agitation is in fact dissolving CO2 back into the water.

CO2 has a higher affinity to dissolve in water than O2, hence the need to drive the O2 back in and dissolve it as efficiently as possible.

Agitation and turnover does not produce Oxygen.. nor does flow...


Bringing in Fresh Air from OUTSIDE is the easiest and cheapest than running a pressurized oxygen system.

http://vair-monitor.com/2016/09/29/sleeping-closed-room-indoor-co2-analyze/



This is common practice in my other hobby of deep water culture(hydroponics.)
But in that realm most are simply using covered reservoirs with no overflows etc with the water as the growing medium. Personally skeptical how microbubbles on room air are oxygenating water more efficiently than a tank with a large turnover and a proper overflow such as a coast to coast or at least one that allows for some degree of surface skimming, as a huge percentage of the water is experiencing gas exchange as it travels up and over the overflow. Injecting with 100% 02 via a D cylinder would support a more viable argument however (IMO)
 

KJAG

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Because in a closed room or a home, it is typically ladened with higher levels of CO2...
As the water is agitated with higher levels of CO2 than O2, the water agitation is in fact dissolving CO2 back into the water.

CO2 has a higher affinity to dissolve in water than O2, hence the need to drive the O2 back in and dissolve it as efficiently as possible.

Agitation and turnover does not produce Oxygen.. nor does flow...

http://vair-monitor.com/2016/09/29/sleeping-closed-room-indoor-co2-analyze/
Because in a closed room or a home, it is typically ladened with higher levels of CO2...
As the water is agitated with higher levels of CO2 than O2, the water agitation is in fact dissolving CO2 back into the water.

CO2 has a higher affinity to dissolve in water than O2, hence the need to drive the O2 back in and dissolve it as efficiently as possible.

Agitation and turnover does not produce Oxygen.. nor does flow...


Bringing in Fresh Air from OUTSIDE is the easiest and cheapest than running a pressurized oxygen system.

http://vair-monitor.com/2016/09/29/sleeping-closed-room-indoor-co2-analyze/
i haven’t seen anyone suggest that turnover “produces oxygen,” and yes it’s common knowledge to raise ph for example, by running an airline from the outdoors to say, a skimmer. I have one drilled through my masonry wall, and I also vent my fishroom with a centrifugal fan.
But since skimmers utilize a fractionating impeller, which produces microbubbles, and the huge majority of the hobby uses skimmers, how do you explain the benefit of an air stone in addition to the existing fractionated bubbles secondary to the protein skimmer?
 

ca1ore

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I would say skeptics should not speak on this unless they have valid EXPERIENCE and Credentials in PROVING that Floatation Separation is incorrect and skimmers sucking in air from inside a Closed House (CO2 Levels) is acceptable...

Not sure how one relates to the other ... but that's not how the scientific method works, or even an amateurish approximation of same. If you propose a theory or make a claim, you have to be able to back it up with credible data; otherwise skepticism is the most sensible position to take. If you 'believe' it works, that's wonderful; I choose to be skeptical because I can see no credible scientific basis for the claim.
 

Cruz_Arias

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They said "Proper Turnover is adequate"... my question is... please define adequate?

If CO2 in a house is running 2000ppm... and fresh air typically is 300ppm is there an issue?

Yes.


i haven’t seen anyone suggest that turnover “produces oxygen,” and yes it’s common knowledge to raise ph for example, by running an airline from the outdoors to say, a skimmer. I have one drilled through my masonry wall, and I also vent my fishroom with a centrifugal fan.
But since skimmers utilize a fractionating impeller, which produces microbubbles, and the huge majority of the hobby uses skimmers, how do you explain the benefit of an air stone in addition to the existing fractionated bubbles secondary to the protein skimmer?
 

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