Microscrubbing... I'm Ready to Try It!!!

hawkinsrgk

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That's top notch
 

Reef man 89

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the idea is to keep your air stone in your sump in the chamber right before the return pump. Large bubbles are supposed to rise to the surface and pop in the sump. The nano bubbles that make it to the display swirl around and do their duty. I said duty, lol!

cruz is pretty awesome and will be walking me through all of this, so I can't accept any credit for what happens next. free frags for anyone who believes in me/us :rolleyes:o_O
I believe in you!!!!!!
 

Cruz_Arias

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Can this be an alternative to raising ph levels? U guys see any fluctuations?
PH is directly related to Alkalinity when Oxygenation is sufficient...
Don't chase pH with KH buffers, but rather make sure oxygenation is good and then check to make sure your Alk is around 9dkh
 

jason2459

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PH is directly related to Alkalinity when Oxygenation is sufficient...
Don't chase pH with KH buffers, but rather make sure oxygenation is good and then check to make sure your Alk is around 9dkh

Adding more oxygen to an already supersaturated level will not increase pH. Lowering the oxygen levels will also not lower pH.

CO2 reduction will increase pH and CO2 increase will decrease pH.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/6/chemistry

Alkalinity and pH do not always track together and just because someone has high alkalinity levels does not mean they will have high pH and also the reverse. Someone can have high alkalinity like 11dkh or more and have cronic low 7.8 or lower pH.

So, for some pH is an issue and should be monitored. For others that dose anything that could alter pH it should also be monitored like carbon dosing, buffers, limewater, etc.
 

ReeferMaddness843

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Well, one night bubbling and my chalice looks nice n puffy this am compared to normal. Second thing I noticed, tons of that green cyano and some algae in my filter sock this am. Also more skimmate than normal overnight (I did just clean my skimmer yesterday as well so I can't fully contribute that to bubbling just yet). Plan to continue and see what comes of it. So far so good.
Before bubbling:
IMG_7250.PNG

One night of bubbling:
IMG_7249.JPG
 

Cruz_Arias

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Adding more oxygen to an already supersaturated level will not increase pH. Lowering the oxygen levels will also not lower pH.

CO2 reduction will increase pH and CO2 increase will decrease pH.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/6/chemistry

Alkalinity and pH do not always track together and just because someone has high alkalinity levels does not mean they will have high pH and also the reverse. Someone can have high alkalinity like 11dkh or more and have cronic low 7.8 or lower pH.

So, for some pH is an issue and should be monitored. For others that dose anything that could alter pH it should also be monitored like carbon dosing, buffers, limewater, etc.
Yes, we understand the theories behind super saturation... which this is not.
Alk and pH do not track equally because of METABOLIC WASTE GASES in the system.
Lower o2 (aka more co2) will show a lower pH sag. This is scientifically proven that water (salt or fresh) has a limited gas solubility point. In layman's terms, water can only retain so much gas at ATMOSPHERIC conditions (non pressurized)

Being that our system are open to atmosphere and the use of a regular low pressure air pump, there is no way we can create super saturation.

This is NOT ozone.

By the way, the 2002 article you quoted has some mistakes. FYI. It's over 14 years old with some speculation and opinion written in with some incorrect assumptions.

We learn over time, Jason. And we prove our findings. One system at a time. That's how we move forward.
 

jason2459

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Yes, we understand the theories behind super saturation... which this is not.
Alk and pH do not track equally because of METABOLIC WASTE GASES in the system.
Lower o2 (aka more co2) will show a lower pH sag. This is scientifically proven that water (salt or fresh) has a limited gas solubility point. In layman's terms, water can only retain so much gas at ATMOSPHERIC conditions (non pressurized)

Being that our system are open to atmosphere and the use of a regular low pressure air pump, there is no way we can create super saturation.

This is NOT ozone.

By the way, the 2002 article you quoted has some mistakes. FYI. It's over 14 years old with some speculation and opinion written in with some incorrect assumptions.

We learn over time, Jason. And we prove our findings. One system at a time. That's how we move forward.

Lower O2 does not mean you will have more CO2. Thats now how it works. O2 saturation levels are completely independent of CO2 levels.

Randy Holmes-Farley has written several other articles after that. You can go to his chemistry forum section on this site and directly discuss with him if you'd like.

Otherwise I'd highly suggest some Pilson materials to read as well.

An Introduction to the Chemistry of the Sea is an excellent start. Available on kindle as well.
 

Cruz_Arias

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Well, one night bubbling and my chalice looks nice n puffy this am compared to normal. Second thing I noticed, tons of that green cyano and some algae in my filter sock this am. Also more skimmate than normal overnight (I did just clean my skimmer yesterday as well so I can't fully contribute that to bubbling just yet). Plan to continue and see what comes of it. So far so good.
Before bubbling:
IMG_7250.PNG

One night of bubbling:
IMG_7249.JPG
Yes, increased membrane health and permeability which shows as "puffing" in lps primarily. :)
 

Cruz_Arias

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Lower O2 does not mean you will have more CO2. Thats now how it works. O2 saturation levels are completely independent of CO2 levels.

Randy Holmes-Farley has written several other articles after that. You can go to his chemistry forum section on this site and directly discuss with him if you'd like.

Otherwise I'd highly suggest some Pilson materials to read as well.

An Introduction to the Chemistry of the Sea is an excellent start. Available on kindle as well.
Lower o2 means more room for co2 to saturate, which co2 is prevalent on our homes and in the sump area where the skimmer is drawing in air.

It has been proven in OSHA that the home typically has 800 to 900ppm of co2 in an average house, whereas, co2 levels outside the home is 375 to 450 ppm of co2... during winter and summer when the homes are all closed to the weather, the indoor co2 has been seen to peak at 1400ppm... these are statistics written in CODE of Standards, which reefing does not have.

I also will like to point out that Chemistry has improved since 1978 and some of Pilson's work was based on assumptive modeling.

Chemistry moves and evolves. It is not a stagnant science.
 

jason2459

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Lower o2 means more room for co2 to saturate, which co2 is prevalent on our homes and in the sump area where the skimmer is drawing in air.

It has been proven in OSHA that the home typically has 800 to 900ppm of co2 in an average house, whereas, co2 levels outside the home is 375 to 450 ppm of co2...

I also will like to point out that Chemistry has improved since 1978 and some of Pilson's work was based on assumptive modeling.

Chemistry moves and evolves. It is not a stagnant science.

Home levels and outside levels wasn't the debate. I know very well inside home levels are elevated as I have extremely low pH levels with out any intervention.

CO2 levels are completely independent of O2 levels minus respiration.
 

Cruz_Arias

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We've learned so much more about reefing since 2002. We can't keep going back to the assumptions established in 2002... we have to keep pushing forward and building on sound science, not speculations of the past...

Improper control and improper delivery, does not constitute that a method is bad. It means whomever made the conclusion did not apply the methodology correctly, nor did they understand the basis or goals of the method.
 

jason2459

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FYI That book I mentioned is revised edition in 2013 and has a fairly in depth topics on CO2 and gasses. Among many other great topics of interest. I highly recommend it.

And Randy's articles are still very relevant today. Again, if you have issue with any of them he is right here on this site to discuss them with. And I'm sure he's open to that discussion.
 

Cruz_Arias

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Home levels and outside levels wasn't the debate. I know very well inside home levels are elevated as I have extremely low pH levels with out any intervention.

CO2 levels are completely independent of O2 levels minus respiration.
Show me which other gases are prevelant and significant in what we are discussing.

We are talking about reef respiration, metabolic gasses (such as h2s) and o2/co2 levels on a home.
Can't and won't take all other gas anomalies into consideration here as their make up is minimal compared to N2, O2, and CO2.

Yes, there can be carbon monoxide, but at dangerous levels, I'd be more concerned about my family and myself. LoL
 

Cruz_Arias

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FYI That book I mentioned is revised edition in 2013 and has a fairly in depth topics on CO2 and gasses. Among many other great topics of interest. I highly recommend it.

And Randy's articles are still very relevant today. Again, if you have issue with any of them he is right here on this site to discuss them with. And I'm sure he's open to that discussion.
I have the original version. I'll check into the newer version, @jason2459 ... thanks for letting me know they revised it. :)
 

jason2459

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Show me which other gases are prevelant and significant in what we are discussing.

We are talking about reef respiration, metabolic gasses (such as h2s) and o2/co2 levels on a home.
Can't and won't take all other gas anomalies into consideration here as their make up is minimal compared to N2, O2, and CO2.

Yes, there can be carbon monoxide, but at dangerous levels, I'd be more concerned about my family and myself. LoL
Why are you trying to go off topic? CO2 levels directly influence pH. Not O2. That is what I was and am pointing out.

And O2 levels are independent of CO2 levels.
 

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