Moving sump to Garage.

[twentyleagues]

Pump failure isn't the big issue, although it also is a point of easy catastrophe. The problem is mismatch. Let's say you buy two identical pumps that move 3200 gallons per hour. Let's assume for a second that they engineered by some divine being and there's literally no variation in that number (there will be even among two identical pumps). The second one of them slows down due to age, gunk, mechanical wear, whatever, let's say it now moves 1% less water. Now your 75 gallon sump is either gaining or losing it's entire volume of salt water every day. What will correct that? You can't just drain it or you'll drain your tank. This will require intervention every single day... Now imagine the difference is 10% or more.

Other considerations... How will you correct for evaporation without a "bottom"... You won't have a single chamber whose level depends entirely on how much water is in the system, they will all vary based on the effective relative rates of the pump and the last time you intervened. You'll have to handle evaporation top off manually based on measuring the systems salinity.

The reason everyone is reacting like they are is because you are introducing so so so many points of failure into something where even minor failures result in loss of life, money and often damage to your house.

this.
I agree. With the pump part and the end part 100%
You bring up evaporation. I think that could be handled by no baffles in the "sump" under the tank and at least one for the return from the garage. Put your ato in that "return pump" chamber.(in my mind anyway) I am in no way saying this idea is feasible at all. just the evaporation part lol.

 

[Areseebee]

this.
I agree. With the pump part and the end part 100%
You bring up evaporation. I think that could be handled by no baffles in the "sump" under the tank and at least one for the return from the garage. Put your ato in that "return pump" chamber.(in my mind anyway) I am in no way saying this idea is feasible at all. just the evaporation part lol.

I THINK the problem with this is that the level of that chamber will depend on the relative rate of pumping between the two. For instance, if you just imagine that setup at any given level and now imagine what happens if the pump out is faster than in (that chamber will drop) whereas the other way that chamber will rise. That's my intuition anyways.... But water is sneaky so it's easy to get it wrong.

Edit: thinking about this more, I'm quite certain. The input/output naturally match in a gravity driven system, you pump up 1300 gallons per hour 1300 gallons of water will be displaced down a tube and thus it will match, your top tank will have a given volume and evaporation will be reflected by the lowest chamber in your sump (the others are gravity driven as well and have natural conservation between input/output. The only thing that will be constant in this pump-coupled situation is the total volume in the two sumps combined.

 

[twentyleagues]

I THINK the problem with this is that the level of that chamber will depend on the relative rate of pumping between the two. For instance, if you just imagine that setup at any given level and now imagine what happens if the pump out is faster than in (that chamber will drop) whereas the other way that chamber will rise. That's my intuition anyways.... But water is sneaky so it's easy to get it wrong.

Edit: thinking about this more, I'm quite certain. The input/output naturally match in a gravity driven system, you pump up 1300 gallons per hour 1300 gallons of water will be displaced down a tube and thus it will match, your top tank will have a given volume and evaporation will be reflected by the lowest chamber in your sump (the others are gravity driven as well and have natural conservation between input/output. The only thing that will be constant in this pump-coupled situation is the total volume in the two sumps combined.

Yup I think you are correct. I wasnt considering the main issue with this idea....duh. lol

 

[MickeyCT]

I think a rough floor plan of the house might help the engineering types in this forum figure out a solution.

Maybe this is a dumb idea, but where is the room the tank is in in relation to outside walls. Given you're in West Palm Beach, is there a possibility of piping to the outside then around to the garage?

 

[jorge-Thalia]

UPDATE ON PROJECT.
I like the challenge when most people say no.
Everything is possible…
24 hr.
Tank up to Attic and sump in garage and up to attic and diwn to tank.
Easier than must people think lol.
Thx u all for the advices.

 

[twentyleagues]

UPDATE ON PROJECT.
I like the challenge when most people say no.
Everything is possible…
24 hr.
Tank up to Attic and sump in garage and up to attic and diwn to tank.
Easier than must people think lol.
Thx u all for the advices.

I hope it works out for you I truly do. Keep this updated, please, either way.

 

[Rjukan]

UPDATE ON PROJECT.
I like the challenge when most people say no.
Everything is possible…
24 hr.
Tank up to Attic and sump in garage and up to attic and diwn to tank.
Easier than must people think lol.
Thx u all for the advices.

You didn't include a pic of the most crucial part.. the attic tank.
Give us some details of what you ended up doing.

 

[acro-ed]

UPDATE ON PROJECT.
I like the challenge when most people say no.
Everything is possible…
24 hr.
Tank up to Attic and sump in garage and up to attic and diwn to tank.
Easier than must people think lol.
Thx u all for the advices.

So did you end up putting a small tank/reservoir up in the attic?

 

[jorge-Thalia]

You didn't include a pic of the most crucial part.. the attic tank.
Give us some details of what you ended up doing.

No attic tank.
Straight pipes from display up to attic and down to sump in garage and back to attic and on top of tank.
Canopy its coming next.!!

 

[jorge-Thalia]

So did you end up putting a small tank/reservoir up in the attic?

No need to.
Back flow on each line.
play with the pumps a little ato and its working fine so far and very stable,i’m impress how balanced it is so far,dint know tomorrow,only running 24hr.

 

[Nano man]

No need to.
Back flow on each line.
play with the pumps a little ato and its working fine so far and very stable,i’m impress how balanced it is so far,dint know tomorrow,only running 24hr.

Lets see some daytime pics of the tank my guy.
Jay

 

[acro-ed]

No need to.
Back flow on each line.
play with the pumps a little ato and its working fine so far and very stable,i’m impress how balanced it is so far,dint know tomorrow,only running 24hr.

So you're saying you have a check-valve on each pipe and you are valving back the pumps to flow match each other? This will work short term but will require constant adjustment and never be safe/reliable. As the pumps/pipes get dirty their flow characteristics will change. Likewise, if there is a failure of a check valve or either of the 2 pumps, then you will have a catastrophe.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, just noting that you may be setting yourself up for major disappointment down the road. Even if you use a water level sensor on each sump as a cutoff in case of emergency there will always be a risk in having this design as equipment can and will fail.... and in this case a failure of only certain components could continue pumping and overflow one sump or the other.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do...just wanting to note that if I'm understanding you correctly I think this is a bad risk assessment.

-Ed

 

[jorge-Thalia]

So you're saying you have a check-valve on each pipe and you are valving back the pumps to flow match each other? This will work short term but will require constant adjustment and never be safe/reliable. As the pumps/pipes get dirty their flow characteristics will change. Likewise, if there is a failure of a check valve or either of the 2 pumps, then you will have a catastrophe.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, just noting that you may be setting yourself up for major disappointment down the road. Even if you use a water level sensor on each sump as a cutoff in case of emergency there will always be a risk in having this design as equipment can and will fail.... and in this case a failure of only certain components could continue pumping and overflow one sump or the other.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do...just wanting to note that if I'm understanding you correctly I think this is a bad risk assessment.

-Ed

Hi Ed.
Thx for the advice.
I tried the system with no check valve first, and shut down one pump to see what happened and then the opposite pump,i have a sump still underneath the tank that can hold the volume in case it comes back to it,same at the garage and i’m running both sumps on minimum level possible.
Overflowing not and option.
All equipment is on the Garage sump,
Sump underneath the tank its just for hikding water comjng from display tank.

 

[jorge-Thalia]

Update.
After 48hrs don’t know how to explain but it seems pumps have equalized on both ends.
I haven’t touch anything and everything its running perfect.
I will continue postings for others to have and idea.
I’m not and expert or engineer but it looks so far it was a very successful project.
Extremely happy with easy access in Garage.
No more complaints from Wife and floor on living room lol

 

[jorge-Thalia]

Another Update After a week of having this running.
No issues with flow or one pump outrunning the other one,i installed flow sensors on pipes but even they showed different flows the water level stay constant and only rising when sump filters gets dirty.
Overflowing its not and option because water level will never overflow sumps(i have made several test with all type of scenarios like shutting one pump or the other or both)
For those of you thinking about putting sump in garage and running pipes up through the attic and down to garage i will say its the best decision i ever made.

 

[twentyleagues]

Another Update After a week of having this running.
No issues with flow or one pump outrunning the other one,i installed flow sensors on pipes but even they showed different flows the water level stay constant and only rising when sump filters gets dirty.
Overflowing its not and option because water level will never overflow sumps(i have made several test with all type of scenarios like shutting one pump or the other or both)
For those of you thinking about putting sump in garage and running pipes up through the attic and down to garage i will say its the best decision i ever made.

I am still having issues wrapping my head around this. So you have a pump sending water from garage up stairs and then to tank, tank drains to sump under tank and is then pumped upstairs to garage? Both sumps can hold all volume of either or both sumps? If so only issues you'd have is no flow in one sump (assuming you have wave pumps in tank) and possibly burning up a pump that has run dry unless it has auto shut off most do, and possibly ato issues when pumps get out of sync.

 

[Tuna Melt]

Interesting that the pumps have found equilibrium. Maybe head pressure is modulating the two pumps? I.e. if pump one has a flow rate of 203 GPH and pump two has a flow rate of 200 gph, pump one will drain its sump overtime which will decrease the water level in its sump thus increasing it’s head pressure while simultaneously lowering the other pumps head pressure. Guess this only works as long as the two pumps are within striking distance of each other. Small margin for error and not sure how the ATO plays into this.

Personally, I'd slap a bunch off different sensors and float switches in both sumps but I respect the spirit of this project. Go boldly where no reefer has gone before.

 

[YOYOYOReefer]

There is no pump equilibrium. Over longer time period the 2 pumps will cause issues and you will then plumb it traditionally.

 

[jorge-Thalia]

There is no pump equilibrium. Over longer time period the 2 pumps will cause issues and you will then plumb it traditionally.

I will continue posting that way will know .

 

[jorge-Thalia]

Interesting that the pumps have found equilibrium. Maybe head pressure is modulating the two pumps? I.e. if pump one has a flow rate of 203 GPH and pump two has a flow rate of 200 gph, pump one will drain its sump overtime which will decrease the water level in its sump thus increasing it’s head pressure while simultaneously lowering the other pumps head pressure. Guess this only works as long as the two pumps are within striking distance of each other. Small margin for error and not sure how the ATO plays into this.

Personally, I'd slap a bunch off different sensors and float switches in both sumps but I respect the spirit of this project. Go boldly where no reefer has gone before.

I am planning on putting a sensor on both sumps that if the water reaches the sensor will shut down the opposite pump and viceversa on the other sump but so far nothing its needed.
In regards to ATO i have a direct line from my RODI system in to Garage sump just dripping Very Slowly and i will make adjustments on it as needed.
Salinity at .26 stable so far.
Tank 375G