My thoughts on nitrite.

[Lasse]

chloride through the chloride cells in the gills

In saltwater fish - the chloride cell operate the other way - transport out chloride - this is maybe a reason why nitrite uptaken by the digestive tract do not accumulate in the body. But this cost energy in the long run. however - one of the articles in my post above show a rise in methemoglobin in flounders tested in nitrite rich water.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Wyvern]

What you say about this ?

It is very high nitrite levels 25 and 50 mg/L NO2-N (82 resp 164 as NO2) but at least in one parametre they suppose that the lower was over the threshold level

This study show that there is a uptake route along the intestine

In this study of the green urchin - they found effect on gonad growth already at 1.6 mg/L NO2 (0,5 mg/L NO2-N)

This is about abalone and another sea urchin. Levels above 6,5 and 16.5 mg/L affect growth during a 2 weeks period

This is interesting too because it compare the sensitivity for nitrite in different salinities within the same species



How much ammonia did you totally dose ?

Sincerely Lasse

I dosed enough to reach 3ppm and re-dosed the next day so long as ammonia was below 1ppm, the final dose was 2X my normal dose and it ate it in 24 hours.

I used Biospira, 80lbs Caribsea live sand (a little in fuge too) and 80lbs of "Life"Rock, I hit it with Zyme 9 on the second week causing a massive bacteria bloom.
Kept temps at 81F during cycle.

 

[rhostam]

Five pages into this thread and I'm still not sure what is being argued or discussed. What is "nitrite compliance?"

 

[Kongar]

Five pages into this thread and I'm still not sure what is being argued or discussed. What is "nitrite compliance?"

Agreed - help a noob. What's the issue or thing? Nitrite hasn't been detectable in my tank since my initial cycle, and I've had some spectacular failures/deaths with dinos and whatnot. Cycling took me but a week and change - it's easy to do, and very clear when it's safe to add fish. And then you just add them a bit at a time, not all at once. Nitrites are the absolute last parameter I worry about in my tank. What am I missing? /shrug

 

[KStatefan]

Cycling took me but a week and change - it's easy to do, and very clear when it's safe to add fish.

I think that is what this thread is about. Does the Nitrite level mater in being safe?

 

[Kongar]

I think that is what this thread is about. Does the Nitrite level mater in being safe?

I'd say no. My cycle went from "OMG that's a lot of nitrite" to "wait - where'd it all go? man that happened fast" The test kit seems to only be accurate enough to point at two states "don't add fish" & "add fish" :)

That's my vote at least. Once that nitrite spike goes back to "zero" I doubt any of us can really say with confidence how much is there (unless we have a non hobby test kit).

 

[Wyvern]

@Wyvern At what level when added fish? To my point though those are only noticeable results saying looks happy so its all good? Because a lot of documents I find lack information more geared to species or even species families we keep. How does one know damage permanent or not was made to them in that week it took to go down? Without proper reference to said species? That is why I am not convinced.

Icycle.I

@Wyvern At what level when added fish? To my point though those are only noticeable results saying looks happy so its all good? Because a lot of documents I find lack information more geared to species or even species families we keep. How does one know damage permanent or not was made to them in that week it took to go down? Without proper reference to said species? That is why I am not convinced.

IMHO the toxic and stressful environment our animals are shipped in causes more immediate and chronic damage in that period of time than months or years of lacking, but within reason- husbandry and water quality.

My Nitrites were at least 10-15PPM based on the fact mixing with 50% fresh mixed RoDi saltwater still was off the charts of 5PPM.

I really wanted to wait till Nitrates went to 0, but after hearing from many it isn't nearly as toxic in saltwater, I went that route and monitored the fish and water like a hawk, testing 3X a day with a bottle of bac, 30 gallons of mixed water and prime on hand in case something crashes.

Maybe I just was a little too impatient to wait for nitrites to drop, maybe somehow, it was the poop and bacteria from the fish that did it.

Now I wait for my first Algae bloom till I get coral, but I just now am getting hints of diatoms, but I'm running Cheato, Phytoplankton, pods and 3 bags of Chemi-pure elite and have a 24W GKM in the sump if needed.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Not overwhelmingly convincing arguments that nitrite is a concern in a marine setup... I will continue to suggest a large water change and continue on after they can process 1 ppm ammonia in 24 hours. Nitrite is pointless to measure.

 

[Aqua Man]

From what I gather chronic, acute, lethal, sublethal, lowest observed are all measures of toxicity. That would imply that there is toxicity. Why everyone says still its not toxic is beyond me at this point.

Because the experts say it’s fine? Everyone is in a hurry these days?

Would it be a bad thing to just be patient and wait a few days until Nitrite has been converted?

To be a reef keeper, long term, one must learn to take the longer and less traveled path. Reefing is a journey, not a destination!!

The first fish I bought for my first tank almost 8 years ago is still alive. The fish for my second tank, alive and breeding now.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Because the experts say it’s fine? Everyone is in a hurry these days?

Would it be a bad thing to just be patient and wait a few days until Nitrite has been converted?

To be a reef keeper, long term, one must learn to take the longer and less traveled path. Reefing is a journey, not a destination!!

The first fish I bought for my first tank almost 8 years ago is still alive. The fish for my second tank, alive and breeding now.

Nitrite is not just a possible concern when cycling. it is always present at some level.

Is that level ever a concern in a reef tank? Such as when a big organism dies, power fails, whatever?

 

[KStatefan]

I'd say no. My cycle went from "OMG that's a lot of nitrite" to "wait - where'd it all go? man that happened fast" The test kit seems to only be accurate enough to point at two states "don't add fish" & "add fish" :)

That's my vote at least. Once that nitrite spike goes back to "zero" I doubt any of us can really say with confidence how much is there (unless we have a non hobby test kit).

I have no idea I am new at this and still cycling my tank. I am using Dr Tims fishless cycle but with a different bacteria source.

This is where i am now.

• Now start to measure ammonia and nitrite every day.
• When BOTH ammonia and nitrite are below 0.2 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N), add another 2 ppm ammonia.
• Continue to measure every day. When you can add 2 ppm ammonia and BOTH ammonia and nitrite are below 0.2 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N) the next day your tank is cycled – congrats! You’re done!

When I dose 2 ppm of the Dr Tims Ammonia the ammonia will be zero the next day but the Nitrite takes a second day to get to "zero" is is at least .4 at 24 hours.

 

[Aqua Man]

And we still not know of the sublethal effects.

Is that level ever a concern in a reef tank? Such as when a big organism dies, power fails, whatever?

Possibly. Better safe then sorry. Not a fan of variables, so limiting them seems like a good thing.

 

[Wyvern]

Not overwhelmingly convincing arguments that nitrite is a concern in a marine setup... I will continue to suggest a large water change and continue on after they can process 1 ppm ammonia in 24 hours. Nitrite is pointless to measure.

I think it's a good indicator if your bacteria/filter is falling behind IF it's been cycled already.

We should all expect not to fully stock a new aquarium, dosing with ammonia is like a fish instantly going belly up and decomposing, rather than slow, consistent ammonia production, I think the former overwhelms the bacteria into a "stall" situation.

Once my FW tanks cycled, Nitrites were never an issue unless something died and went unnoticed, the Nitrogen cycle is pretty quick.

Should we care about Nitrites and it's toxicity? Yes, but it doesn't seem like a major parameter to be worried about, I'm more concerned about a heater cooking or freezing out my livestock, or a full skimmer overflowing all it's yuck in under a minute into the water column.

 

[Lasse]

I dosed enough to reach 3ppm and re-dosed the next day so long as ammonia was below 1ppm, the final dose was 2X my normal dose and it ate it in 24 hours.

It means that you maybe dose - during the actual time - a dose that correspond to over 20 ppm if you have done it one time, or?. It means that you theoretically could have reach concentrations of nitrite over 60 ppm if the cycle stall completely. And my experiences is like the on below

"OMG that's a lot of nitrite" to "wait - where'd it all go? man that happened fast"

My experiences with stalled second stage is just that - it is more or less digital - nothing or all and when it starts - it goes very fast. This has not to do with bad tests - it is the nature of the second step - IMO. and I have started 1000 of nitrification cycles in my life - always the same if you "succeed" to stall - nitrite, nitrite, nitrite and suddenly - no nitrite.

Back to this

Why pick on nitrite and not equally on nitrate that is more often attained at "toxic" levels in reef tanks than is nitrite:

If I should care for my nitrate levels (want around 2 - 5 ppm) I need to analyze the nitrite in order to know my real nitrate level. I use Tropic Marine Pro nitrite test both manually and as reagents in Master Tronic (an analyze robot) automatically measurements. I know that my normal concentration is normally between 0 and 0,05 ppm nitrite and if I read 5 ppm with this test and have 0,05 ppm nitrite - my real nitrate is 0 !!!!

Hanna marine ULR nitrite checker is also a useful tool to analyze nitrite

Another thing is also if you use a sulphur based denitrification equipment of classic construction - you need to measure nitrite because these can be a source for nitrite in aquariums

But this cost energy in the long run.

I have to explain this a little bit further - the chloride cells should transfer out chlorid that of osmotic reasons have invaded the fish body. This invasion is rather constant if the salinity is constant but it is an transfer against a gradient - therefore it needs energy from the fish . My thought is that if it is that way that if nitrite ions sneak by through the ion pump . the fish have to use more energy in order to withhold the osmotic pressure to pump both the same amount chloride ions as before (without nitrite in the water) and nitrite ion (with both chloride and nitrite ions in the water) that have been taken up through the digestive track. This cost energy that could be critical for other processes like immune system, growth and other things that need energy. This is a possible pathway for sublethal damage in fish living in water with nitrite concentration above normal. What normal is - I do not know - however I aim to have below 0.02 ppm nitrite (or lower)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ClownWrangler]

IMO, nitrite is not something reefers need to be concerned with or measure.

Is it toxic at high levels (like 150 ppm)? Very likely yes. Published studies claim so, but I personally would not be sure that a study adding 150 ppm nitrite didn't accidentally have 0.5 ppm ammonia also present.

But is it ever toxic in a cycled reef aquarium? Highly unlikely, IMO, without dosing nitrite.

Is it ever toxic in any reef tank that can process ammonia? I cannot see how unless one set up a system to process a ton of ammonia fast before nitrite processing got ramped up.

You kind of just came full circle on what I mentioned earlier. During QT treatment in an uncycled tank, you will almost definitely at some point end up with a partial cycle where you have both Ammonia and nitrites present. This is a common scenario. And sudden deaths of fish are a common scenario in QT. It's possible that less than lethal amounts of Ammonia in combination with less than lethal amounts of Nitrite could be toxic enough to kill fish. Think of it like a human taking two drugs together that are not harmful by themselves, but have dangerous interactions. Also, studies have not been done on all types of fish and some fish will be more sensitive than others.

 

[ClownWrangler]

Totally agree Dr. Z!!

EPA also puts limits on nitrates for human intake. My local water company was having issues controlling nitrates due to all the farms in my community and there was a rash of puppies dying from the bad water quality.
It was so bad that the FBI began an investigation.

The irony about this is that the amount of nitrites present in beef jerky is higher by several orders of magnitude (100-200ppm) than the upper limit for tap water (1ppm). I don't think the EPA, FDA and USDA are all on the same page here. If I were a fish, I would have been dead a long time ago from binging on turkey sticks.

 

[ClownWrangler]

It means that you maybe dose - during the actual time - a dose that correspond to over 20 ppm if you have done it one time, or?. It means that you theoretically could have reach concentrations of nitrite over 60 ppm if the cycle stall completely. And my experiences is like the on below


My experiences with stalled second stage is just that - it is more or less digital - nothing or all and when it starts - it goes very fast. This has not to do with bad tests - it is the nature of the second step - IMO. and I have started 1000 of nitrification cycles in my life - always the same if you "succeed" to stall - nitrite, nitrite, nitrite and suddenly - no nitrite.

Back to this


If I should care for my nitrate levels (want around 2 - 5 ppm) I need to analyze the nitrite in order to know my real nitrate level. I use Tropic Marine Pro nitrite test both manually and as reagents in Master Tronic (an analyze robot) automatically measurements. I know that my normal concentration is normally between 0 and 0,05 ppm nitrite and if I read 5 ppm with this test and have 0,05 ppm nitrite - my real nitrate is 0 !!!!

Hanna marine ULR nitrite checker is also a useful tool to analyze nitrite

Another thing is also if you use a sulphur based denitrification equipment of classic construction - you need to measure nitrite because these can be a source for nitrite in aquariums


I have to explain this a little bit further - the chloride cells should transfer out chlorid that of osmotic reasons have invaded the fish body. This invasion is rather constant if the salinity is constant but it is an transfer against a gradient - therefore it needs energy from the fish . My thought is that if it is that way that if nitrite ions sneak by through the ion pump . the fish have to use more energy in order to withhold the osmotic pressure to pump both the same amount chloride ions as before (without nitrite in the water) and nitrite ion (with both chloride and nitrite ions in the water) that have been taken up through the digestive track. This cost energy that could be critical for other processes like immune system, growth and other things that need energy. This is a possible pathway for sublethal damage in fish living in water with nitrite concentration above normal. What normal is - I do not know - however I aim to have below 0.02 ppm nitrite (or lower)

Sincerely Lasse

One thing I have been curious about for a while is if nitrate concentration can get high enough in a cycled system to stop the second stage. Is there a maximum concentration of nitrates that the bacteria can produce before dying or going dormant, much like yeast and alcohol?

 

[Lasse]

One thing I have been curious about for a while is if nitrate concentration can get high enough in a cycled system to stop the second stage. Is there a maximum concentration of nitrates that the bacteria can produce before dying or going dormant, much like yeast and alcohol?

I do not think so - I have read nitrate concentrations of 800 ppm in fresh water fish farms and still a very good nitrification rate

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ClownWrangler]

I do not think so - I have read nitrate concentrations of 800 ppm in fresh water fish farms and still a very good nitrification rate

Sincerely Lasse

I'm guessing that would be candy apple red on the API test kit. Lol. Thanks.

 

[DrZoidburg]

@ClownWrangler I could buy that. Think I used same analogy a few days ago somewhere else. The thing is that they require these substances to live but the biproducts have some toxicity. I do know they are some of the smallest creatures it would stand to reason big changes could harm them. Here see very small ph changes/O2 changes effect them by as much as 44% https://www.pnas.org/content/108/1/208

@Lasse what about saltwater?