My thoughts on nitrite.

[DrZoidburg]

I wouldn't say it is not toxic. Even if acute or lethal it is still toxic. Found a few places for example that listed 96 hr, and 24 hr Lc50's. Which 50% of test subjects died within that time frame. Most are similar from 5 to upwards of 3000mg/L where 50% are dead in that time. That is marine fish. The safer ranges from less than .5mg/L to 15 mg/L for inverts and less than 5mg/L to 50mg/L fish in one article. Safer though still toxic. I have seen on here some that let it go to over 10mg/L. Saying one would never get to toxic levels is just false. Temperature matters cold water species are much more sensitive. To add when the temperature rises the toxicity increases to nearly double in most at usual aquarium temperatures because the fish need to take in more oxygen. It is also another unknown in common kept fish whether some fish take more nitrite via their stomach than through gills. Which would negate the effects chloride has on making nitrite absorption rates into body safer. Not to mention other variables or chemical reactions that increase toxicity as well as side effects caused even if they did not die. Some of the places I found only listed a few commonly kept fish and inverts. None were very comprehensive lists. Realistically would one want to risk a several hundred dollar fish to a possible 50% chance of survival right out of the gate without solid data? Even risk a 15% chance on top of all the other probabilities? Whether it be interfering with biological functions, increased susceptibility to disease/parasites or outright death. I would be a lot more convinced if anyone can find me Lc2's (2%) or lowest observed adverse effect levels/concentration. I would like the greatest chance of survival, long life, and good health for my pets. Until then I will personally test and control nitrite when cycling new or dealing with die off cycles.

 

[Lasse]

You have done your homework there is should be done (in scientific literature) Not in hundreds of "work" threads in a hobby forum.

I have on more important task a regular measurement of nitrite will give you. You will get your baseline of nitrite in the aquarium. The second stage of nitrification organism (NOB and other organism) is among the most sensitive bacteria population you have in your aquarium. A rise in nitrite from normal baseline can indicate a bacteria toxic substance in the aquarium. Just only a week ago - I could trace a overdosing of iodine in one of the system at my work that way. NO3 rise from normal 0.015 to 0.070 in one day.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

Nitrite Toxicity

Hey guys I have an aquarium system that has about 45gallons of water cycling so I Let it cycle for about week and I added seeded marine pure ceramic balls and the bacteria in a bottle. I had no choice but to add my 2 clownfish from my quarantine into the tank.. because I needed to put a sick...

www.reef2reef.com

My thoughts on does prime actually detoxify ammonia.

Only in one instance in the case of fish can I say could be toxic. I will talk more on this later. Other wise it is safe. To inverts yes it can be toxic. Now I have not tested this on prime I tested this on erase-cl brand. Which I think to have identical "proprietary" ingredients. Using erase-cl...

www.reef2reef.com

How coincidental

July 19th I post here https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/yellow-tang-in-hospital-tank-unsure-of-issue.845083/page-2#post-9176553 Then august 3rd https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/new-recommendation-for-chelated-copper.6796/

www.reef2reef.com

what did Randy do to claims written by Dr. Z here / shredded

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

You cant prove that they were faked reviews though or that the people on here using it are faking it. @Righteous If anything maybe change their label to make safer. I would agree to that. The fact at hand here is that all of the loop holes in these tests really make them invalid to a degree.

www.reef2reef.com

Is that info being received well by experienced reefers, or terribly, as in the worst possible reception where all chemists disagree vehemently

 

[brandon429]

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.htm

now thats a nitrite reference one can pattern a bunch of cycles from

 

[DeniableArc]

Nitrite Toxicity

Hey guys I have an aquarium system that has about 45gallons of water cycling so I Let it cycle for about week and I added seeded marine pure ceramic balls and the bacteria in a bottle. I had no choice but to add my 2 clownfish from my quarantine into the tank.. because I needed to put a sick...

www.reef2reef.com

Randys thoughts on nitrite, post #2


note: polar opposite

Im looking for reef tank chemistry articles published by Lasse or DZ, point me to some


if we can’t find any, then secondarily I’ll accept any links using reef tanks that are cycling for their claims- other peoples reef tanks not a 22 page review of Lasses sole reef tank


and if none of those examples can be found…opinion piece duly noted. It’s good to have push/pull going on in reefing procedure this helps to streamline best practices.

in the entire fish disease forum, why are nitrite warnings missing from the stickies

and if some get added barely now, why the delay


and if some don’t ever get added, what does that mean regarding acceptance of Dr. Z’s claims about toxicity?

the fish disease forum is the top location on the internet to get patterned science regarding disease best practices in reef tank keeping

wait for nitrite info to show up there before giving much credence to something written so oppositely from Randy’s chemistry claims which have turned out correct in testing using hundreds of other peoples cycling reef tanks, logged above.

@Lasse

 

[brandon429]

Lasse has seen that thread about forty times so far, its years old


why not summon Randy?

let me know what you personally think regarding cycling and nitrite and works logged after you read that thread and it’s links





here are nitrite positive reef tanks doing cycling

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

non digital ammonia test kit readings (api, Red Sea, nyos, seachem badges) make you think you aren’t cycled when indeed you are if you owned a $200 expensive seneye meter, you’d never be doubting your cycle status. since .01% of the reefing population owns these, we need a way to help the...

www.reef2reef.com

ask any entrant there how we did. That’s the only assemblage of cycling reef tanks with nitrite positivity this thread will see, showing opposite results.

 

[Garf]

Be sure and read that actual link too, all of it
Lasse has seen that thread about forty times so far, its years old


why not summon Randy?

let me know what you personally think regarding cycling and nitrite and works logged after you read that thread and it’s links

Yes indeed, Low doesn’t mean Nil, however;

 

[brandon429]

Edit

 

[Garf]

Does kalk have a toxicity level that’s reachable


we should cease using it then

As does eating too much beef. However there are advantages to eating and Kalk.

 

[brandon429]

And we logged advantages in disfactoring nitrite for sixteen pages using nitrite positive reefs where any entrant can be messaged


second prediction

nobody asks for Randy’s opinion here

 

[brandon429]

Lasse and Dr. Z can contribute to nitrite studies by making cycling thread collections from dry start reefs like we do daily, having them factor nitrite compliance in the tank (wait as many months as required by api to show bone zero nitrite) while rejecting quarantine and fallow preps.

then we get to message the entrants for outcomes eight months after some works have been logged.

What’s the chance that will happen



soon a googler will link the study where in a glass tank at a university a group of clownfish were killed by adding in nitrite well above cycling levels until the fish died, a context that has nothing to do with cycling reef tanks at all- and I’ll respond with a kalk overdose alert thread where some fish died.

 

[DrZoidburg]

I'm not attacking your approach to cycling but when you say it is not toxic I completely disagree. These compounds cause oxidative stress to living animals whether its .0001mg or 100. I would also like to add under certain conditions it can be converted back to ammonia. Also again under conditions can be converted to coordination complexes, organic nitro compounds and nitrosamines. All with varying toxicity. Many of the latter mentioned are being studied to be links to huge varieties of diseases, disorders, and cancers also (in humans). The principles of cellular damage by oxidative stress would surely be very similar in fish. My opinions are based on much reading like Lasse said in scientific literature not forums.

 

[brandon429]

That’s fair. This is also a good thread to test claims, it’s good to have counter points for all claims in reefing.

can you understand my point that you should guide cycles that do wait for nitrite compliance, for pages build up people we can message later for input, have one section that uses fallow and quarantine to see if nitrite compliance boosts retention rates and then have another group avoid fallow and qt while being certain to have zero nitrite


web forums have powerful data to mine and sample. valid and new patterns can be found in materials other than forum studies.

that’s the only way you’ll be able to shore up claims, there aren’t any actual reef cycling studies for the matter you’ll need to make some.
*caveat: I bet there are studies from bottle bac sellers, nitrite issues help sell bigtime.

to know what happens in a reef tank cycle we need to see cycle levels and data on the param at hand, lethality studies are of little application.

 

[brandon429]

This thread here really is good because it provides counter balance to the literally hundreds of reefs we complete cycles on using solely ammonia compliance. If we are turning out disease-ridden aquaria we need to be called on that. And the fish disease forum needs to add nitrite compliance into the stickies at the top


*has any reader ever noticed that in the history of all posted nitrite concerns in reefing, not a soul has ever questioned the testing accuracy from api which represents all the stated param levels? Convenient

api hits home runs with all its other kits that’s for sure


they’re loved and revered, especially the .25 ammonia ones


we go from that to accepting any stated nitrite param at any time as 100% accurate. nice

 

[DeniableArc]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[brandon429]

Can we get your input based on links

second prediction, nullified

 

[DeniableArc]

From what I read and understand is nitrite is not a concern in marine. It seems ammonia and nitrate are the indications. But as interesting as it is to me I don’t fully understand what it means in the average reef tank.

 

[brandon429]

I edited my post to be 80% less jerkish thank you for responding.

 

[brandon429]

…

 

[brandon429]

I can see that Lasse and DZ are not trying to sell any reefer on anything bottled, they advocate for a different start date/add bioload date, more wait time, which cannot be harmful that's how I see the disagreement.

without someone pressing, wait time is going to drop to zero as a moore's law of reef cycling and if that carries a disease implication then speed cycling is bad

if there turns out to be a way to ensure nitrite compliance and we can use means other than api to infer compliance, heck I don't mind altering start dates in some tests with the material we'll just tell them to plan X days earlier for bioload carry date than before. but be pinpointed to a start date

we do this for ammonia for pages. we set compliance/can add fish dates for reefs not built yet, ammonia cycling is that specific. the ammonia line on a cycle chart dips down whether in a book at the library from 1976 or the google cycling image posted on a thousand links. we tested the reliability of that in our focus threads.

In my opinion its directly time Lasse to begin assembling large scale pattern testing with cyclers, thousands will be willing to follow your advice, write the threads and make the time it would benefit the hobby. everyone must reach and document in verified ways nitrite compliance, one set gets fallow and qt and the other set gets nothing just nitrite compliance when adding fish from a pet store.

its not practical to require in your study to omit dry rock reef starts, that's where 2/3rds of the current trend is and we need the null hypothesis tested.