Need help !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[foxhuntr]

i have a bunch of chalice that are receeding and i can NOT figure out why.... i have had the chalices for about 4 months now and they were doing great... all of a sudden they just start to receed. the skelletin after they recced turns a bright red. it doesnt look like anything is eating them. they appear to keep their shape so the receed is the whole way around at they same time....none of my other LPS is affected... i have acans that are all doing good.... and its not all my chalices...out of 21 chalices only 10 of them are receeding.... i dipped them in Lugol's Solution for 15 minutes.not sure if this worked yet (to early)....as i was dipping them i saw some bugs on the bottom of the plugs...they look like little potato bugs.. so i grabbed the camera and took a few pics...so if anybody can ID these bugs please help...not sure if the bugs have anything to do with it or not.... but i just dont wanna loose my chalices... my water is in good shape and are as follows......

PH-8.36
temp-79.1
calcium-440ppm
mag-1350
alk-10.5 kh
phosphate-0
nitrite-0
nitrate-0
amonnia-0

lighting is 3-250 watt hamelton MH's and 6-36 watt aquascience T5's about 12" above the water and the chalices are sitting on the substrate.... flow is with 2 mp40's running at about 70% on short pulse anti-sync.... not much more i can add ... so if anybody has any ideas please help before i loose my chalices....... Thank You

the first pic is how the receeding starts.... notice the red on the exposed skelliton.... and the other pics are of the bugs i found on the underside of the plugs.....

 

[tangdiver]

Bugs are stomatas.....looks like to me. Algea eaters....

 

[foxhuntr]

Thanks tangdiver...... any idea whats going on with my chalices???? would really hate to loose them

 

[tangdiver]

alk a little high.....mine is 10 at highest.....is it steady....all the parameters.

 

[tangdiver]

What do you use to keep up Ca and alk? If not consistant could be the issue.

All other stuff looks great? The stomatas will eat dead tissue and algae but not live tissue.

Grant

 

[foxhuntr]

i run a calcium reactor......and have been testing alot lately and have not noticed any swings...... i also us Zeomag in my calcium reactor for magnisium

 

[tangdiver]

Not sure then....sorry u got me....

 

[J. Montgomery]

The 'bugs' are chitons

 

[tangdiver]

The 'bugs' are chitons

Sorry hard to tell, either way....not chalice eaters.

 

[foxhuntr]

I am stumped as well tangdiver..... no that i know i dont have to worry about those bugs eating my chalices i am really clueless... the only ones not affected are my miami hurricane,bubblegum monster and a few others....they are still growing strong

 

[george_n_jo]

Osmotic Shock ???

First let me broach the idea that sometimes doing the right thing aint doing the right thing. There is not really enough information to make this conclusion but is it possible that it could be Osmotic shock? While the ALK is a marginal it would impact and SPS in your tank much more quickly than it would the LPS. The SPS tissue depth is very shallow and generally does a center out RTN long before you see effects in your LPS. That being said, possible avenues of osmotic shock include, A: Nitric Acid spike cause a localized shift in PH, B: Carbonic Acid spike cause a localized shift in PH, C: Rapid salinity shift adding a big amount of makeup water at once.

A: Nitric Acid based Osmotic Shock only applies if you have a fish mysteriously disappear (Die) in the system or have pockets of necrosis in ye old sand bed. The fish goes without saying but as the necrosis builds up in the sand bed nitrogen builds up and can form nitric acid which impacts Ph locally but tends to be rapidly oxidized after release. But the damage is done to those items very near or on the sand bed. This tends to impact the thinner fringes first. If you have no sand bed this is most likely not a player. For this to be considered a probably cause the corals impacted would have to cluseted in the tank in the same general area. Dealing with this can be a nightmare and it is generally the beginning of a bad scene known as Old Tank Syndrome.

B: Carbonic Acid based Osmotic Shock only applies to systems which include a Calcium Reactor. Water readily takes up carbon Dioxide (CO2). Part of why we are dealing with an insurmountable amount of rhetoric relateds to carbon credits and Global warming. The CO2 added to the reaction chamber of the Calcium Reactor is readily adsorbed and when combined with water creates Carbonic Acid (H2CO3) [Process (CO2 + H2O -> H2CO3)]. The problem lies in that if the entire volume of Carbonic Acid is not oxidized then it makes its way back into the main system and you can get localize Ph spikes along the laminar flow of the return and along the bottom of the system due to increased mass of the resulting H2CO3 molecule as compared to Salt water. This is generally accompanied by a measurable change in ALK before it is seen on the PH scale as it is localized and takes time to rear its ugly head throughout the volume of the system (especially large systems). Deep dip Ph testing can help diagnose this. This is generally caused by a poorly adjusted CO2 flow. Flow can become variable from a needle valve as the supply chamber pressure begins to fall off and replacement is necessary. Also a recent replacement may be at the root of the change due to the needle valve requiring more fine adjustment. This can also be caused by selecting a new media and using old CO2 settings. Not all Calcium Reactor media require the same acidity for optimal decomposition.

C: Rapid Salinity Shift based Osmotic Shock due to large Make up addition seems less likely to me but still might give someone reading this. A rapid change in salinity can cause the cells of the coral tissue to explode. Exploding cells is basically the most extreme example (hollywood example) of osmotic shock. This again occurs along the laminar flow of the return and along the bottom of the system due to increased mass of the resulting higher salinity. Again the fringes of the corals are impacted first and the damage can occur quickly and the corals will continue to recede for a few days after a big shock. I have seen this one caused by a newly failing Auto Top Off.

I am no expert and this should by no means be considered an absolute diagnosis of your problem. These are however common causes of Osmotic Shock which I have seen in actual systems. These rank in correct-ability Where A is correctible with considerable effort, B is correctible with moderate effort, and C is correctible with almost no effort. All are equally sever as related to the long term health of the corals over time. While this may not be any help I hope it might give someone reading this thread some ideas in the future to help them related to preventing loss by way of Osmotic Shock. Best wishes with your Chalices. Let me know if you have any questions about anything I have said. I sometimes fail to proof read thoroughly and may have negated some subtle point. I welcome Peer Review.

Happy Reefing to all.
~ George

 

[foxhuntr]

thanks for the info George....... another question..... if one of those are my problem how do i detect which one it is and how do i solve the problem???? it sounds like it might be my problem with the water change...... i change out about 20 gallons every 3 weeks in a 160 gallon system...... and i do this all at once (bad idea???)

 

[george_n_jo]

Some possible solutions.

Smaller is always better. But we as reef keeper must balance life with our one true love. The 20 gallons change should not be at the root cause of this problem. That is assuming that the PH of the water change is balanced with the system (close is good enough), the Salinity is of the change is balanced with the system (again, close is good enough), and Temperature of the change is balanced with the system (Closer the better.) Temp is a huge player in that the water is denser holding a greater concentration of ions adding to the shock. If added to the sump and allowed to churn a few seconds this should not be an issue. If dumped directly near the bottom of the tank it could be an issue. Now this being said prior to a water change you need to ensure that the system is properly topped off as not to cause an increase in salinity. Over time the increase in salinity it would be detectible. I would get your Refractometer out and take a look immediately if this cause you concern. This will resolve the prospect that it is C.

Now for B you need to check the PH of the effluent coming out of your Reactor. B does not seem likely because you are not showing other signs. Taking samples near the bottom of the tank to validate PH readings and will let you know if you have a problem Deep in the water column due to an oxygenation issue near the bottom of the tank. And bear in mind if you are marginal deep, when the lights go off O2 drops because all different algae in the system begin taking up O2 to make it through the night. The addition of a reverse lit Refuge can help with this problem but is often not the final solution.

A is very hard to diagnose. Look for nitrogen bubbles being expelled from the sand in the area around where the corals are being impacted. Stirring the sand is not a good idea for any system. Do not go that route. If you think it might be A. I would consider siphoning some of the sand out of the area where the corals are being impacted and replace it with a small amount (5 lbs of newly acquired live sand). Minor necrosis issues can generally be corrected by increasing the worm population of your sand.

Happy Reefing to all.
~ George

 

[cloakerpoked]

If you are using a deep sand bed, you would also notice bubbles forming underneath the sand bed in small/moderate sized bubbles/pockets. If it's a shallow sand bed, this is unlikely to be the issue, especially if it's a slow recession and not being seen in quick spurts. I also wouldn't expect to see the area all around the chalice effected unless you had a significant amount of nitrogen off-gassing.

Is it definitive that none of your animals could be a culprit here. If it is dying back, normally you'll get a white skeleton...the red seems to suggest to me that some tissue is hanging around. I am by no means an expert on chalices, as I only have 2 in my tank...but I'd want to be sure that no animal is nipping at them...even snails/crabs could be ticking off the tissue.

 

[foxhuntr]

ok.... i took a bunch of PH readings with my lab grade PH probe and my AC jr......
my ACjr constantly monitors the PH in my sump after the overflow ...the reading is

sump-8.27
bttom of tank
right side-8.33
center-8.28
left-8.31
top of tank...........
right-8.27
center-8.26
left-8.26

now the right side of the tank is where my overflow is and also about half way up is where my frag rack used to be with my chalices when the receeding started...... the chalices are now moved to the left side of the tank down on the substrate...... i have never seen any bubbles coming from my sandbed meaning gas discharge....i have never seen any of my fish picking at them or snails or crabs bothering them....but where my chalicesare located now the PH is 8.31...reading was taken beside the chalices...... how does this sound ??? as for temp i run a chiller and the temp is kept a constant 78-79 degree's...... i also have a refugium with cheato and my refugium lights are on oppisite of my tank lights.... the tank lights go off at 9 pm and the refugium lights come on at 9 pm and run thru the night and go off at 7am when my actinics on the tank come on.....

 

[Keiki]

Have you checked the calibration on all testing equiment? What about teat kits, have you tried using different test kits to double check the results?

 

[george_n_jo]

Then I would look to predation theory that Cloakerpoked suggested. It is most definitely not Osmotic Shock. Got to Love Occam's Razor, "The simplest explanation for some phenomenon is more likely to be accurate than more complicated explanations." I cut my self yet again. I simply hope my self inflicted injury has not created a significant time expenditure on your part. Lol After all it sounds like your tank is in great shape. You have ruled out the Reactor problem and Nitrogen issues. Sounds like O2 depression is out due to the refuge. Water chhages are unlikely. Temp not a problem. However is the red fleshy area on the receded Chalice the on set of Cyano Bacteria? How about your feeding regimen. Do you feed your tank regularly? Could the chalices be getting out competed for supplemental foods that they need? Try target feeding the chalices which are having issues and see if they rebound. It could be that your tank is TOO clean. Now wouldn't that be a first. Occam will be laughing at me from on high if that is the case. Just a thought.

Happy Reefing to all.
~ George

 

[foxhuntr]

i do have a slight cyno problem...... i feed my chalices..... wait a minute!!!!!!!!! i think i know what the cause is now that i think about it....... i took a plastic container like you put cookies in or something....... it had a lid that the handles snap on with the handles..... so i took the lid part and drilled holes in it and made a frag rack out of it.... now i took the bottom which was about 3" deep and drilled 2 holes in it ...one on each side...... i put my chalice frags on the lid/frag rack and when i fed the chalices i would lock the bottom on top of the lid over top of the chalices and use a turkey baster to squirt mysis into the holes and then onto the feeding chalices...... this would give the chalices time to eat in peace without the fish and crabs stealing the mysis from them.... i am wondering if it was to much nutrients in there for them???? i kept the lid on for about 1-1 1/2 hours.......thinking this might have caused a bacteria on the chalices????

 

[george_n_jo]

It would stand to reason if only those corals which were treated in this manner are displaying this issue then I would say you have your root cause. However I would be remised, due to my good buddy Occam’s advise, to say that were definitively it. But it sure sounds both plausible and simple. High nutrient load causes all manner of Nitrogen effects to include O2 deprivation felt most immediately by new/thinner/healing/compromised tissues which do not have the capacity to transport the high concentration of nutrients away efficiently. So they are damaged and die due to failure to transport away toxins. Deeper tissues have more neighbors and are able to survive because they have a greater number of cells which can receive the toxins and collectively keep the core alive. So I believe this is a case of poisoning. Which takes me back to one of the first things I said “sometimes doing the right thing aint doing the right thing.†An hour to an hour and a half is too long for low flow isolation in a nutrient high environment. It will “burn†poison the coral. And the type of coral recession you experienced is very possible under these circumstances. So that leaves me with just two more questions. Have all the corals treated in this manner experienced some manner so setback? Does it process seem to be slowing? It sounds like a good possibility and is a unique event which is totally avoidable in the future. I certainly hope you have found your culprit.

Happy Reefing to all.
~ George