Neptune APEX Reliability (Shocking in my experience!)

[Kyl]

This is going to be long and gets in the middle of the whole stem of issues that are being brought up in this melting pot of a thread now. I've debated and so far haven't posted this, but through PM's here and on other platforms I do get asked why I left the ecosystem / brand, so might as well fully put pen to paper.

I remember filling out the customer experience surveys last year and my answer must have ticked a box because a NS employee decided to follow up this past January, then crickets. I'll paste what I sent to them, and interject with some further events that made me decide to stop supporting Neptune Systems with my dollars.

Honestly it's been a cumulative experience for my going on four years in the hobby. I have quite a few Neptune products in the ecosystem including an old and 2016 head unit, which is thousands of dollars in invested equipment. Most of that has been good, but there have been let-downs that make me wary of jumping in on anything new again before the community at large has their turn with retail use:

PMUP, bought one near when they first released so I could replace a MJ1200 on my carbon reactor input to free an EB832 outlet up. It failed within about 4 months with the swollen body, this was always 100% under salt water and made sure there was no air gap or air pocket in the pump. I've used FW aquaclears for years and am well versed in getting any of that air out of the impeller housing before using them. I realize that's an inverted AC vs dc situation, but still, not a newbie at pump use overall. I also inquired, not via support but FB about the noise from when it was brand new and was told it would 'break in' or I could RMA it back to California and get a new one. I wasn't about to pay $25 CAD shipping to CA, so just lived with the noise till it did die.

ATK: Same issue with the PMUP, but it died after a few months in fresh water ATO use. The reservoir is a 25g Norwesco tank, that's never been allowed to run dry, but same result. I did not contact support about this one as given my impression from the first pump, that I'd probably have to RMA and ship it back, it wasn't worth it. The module has been sitting quasi offline since and I've gone back to the Tunze 3155 that never gave me an issue.

COR-20: The pump itself is great, but I was let down with the minimum GPH flow rate it has, which even at 1% is too much to allow for the much marketed "feed mode" to hold the water line just below the overflow on my ~ 80 gallon system. I didn't buy the COR-15 as I wanted the ability to operate without relying on the EB832 in case that ever died I'd be SOL like some of the 1link users have come across with failing WAV's. As well, it came with no guard for the intake, which in a tank with breeding snails, is kind of important and seemed like a very cheap way to save a few bucks in terms of manufacturing cost. The Jebao DCP8500 the COR replaced did come with a guard, which I put on the COR. So I basically paid 3x what my Jebao cost, for a pump that doesn't function any differently and came with less "valuable" accessories. Yes I understand the QC standpoint the COR is superior, but unless I'm mistaken the COR20 has a 1 year warranty as well. That doesn't impart an impression of much faith in your equipment not to prematurely fail after a year, but that's something the entire industry, and other industries have coalesced around and for some reason consumers have accepted it.

DOS: No matter what is done, air gets in the lines. I've tried re-heating, re-seating, everything and it eventually just happens. Having come across a mod to the DOS using John Guest push connect fittings, the same as the DDR uses, the issues have been fixed. I shouldn't have to mod a $400 two-unit doser to get zero air, those plastic compression fittings just don't seem to work long term. The other nit-pick is why no three head option, as when I had gone down the road of 3 part additive it required another dos to be purchased, then a spare head sitting un-used, or dosing Mg manually with the single DOS, etc. Or even offer a single head DOS that you can just link into the DOS body itself via that powered 4pin connection, etc. Price is the largest factor in my not so great view of the DOS, and if I had originally went with something along the lines of the BRS individual dosers I probably wouldn't have bought dos #2. As well, dos #2 out of the box wouldn't hold prime on one of the heads, though support did come through and ship me a new one which I was thankful for. Dos #3 is recent and I am going to experiment with automatic water changes, that brings another minor gripe. The heads only prime in the add direction, yet the AWC task sets the waste water into a remove direction, so I will have to swap / run the outputs to prime the line, then return it to 'remove' configuration physically. If the manual buttons could be set to advanced in the remove direction that would be a big help.

Lastly there's the Trident. I know, you guys probably get the question dozens of times a day, when is the Trident coming out, what's going on with it etc. At first note of Jim's DIY alk monitor at MACNA 2016 I was excited as I was starting to dabble in acropora and while expensive, I take a look at this hobby as one that imparts a huge de-stress factor in my life and to make things go as smoothly as possible, the upfront and ongoing cost would be worth it. Fast forward today and we're still somewhat scant on info, though I gather there is some new news today being released about what the status is. I do though feel and have expressed this in posts on the official Neptune group, and R2R that perhaps shooting for the moon has caused more problems than it would solve. I have almost come to the point of purchasing an Alkatronic, as feedback from everyone I have asked which is over 20 people at this point has been very good overall. The testing methodology is different, but the result is the same, and the more I progress in the hobby the less I am worried about minor variations in Ca and Mg, versus those that predict and dictate issues arising immediately which is Alkalinity levels in my experience. So if I do go Trident, and testing dKH much more frequently than Ca or Mg, do I get stuck buying reagent 3 packs and not using half of them, or increase Ca / Mg testing for the sake of not wasting reagent, etc. Then there's the monthly cost, what's that going to look like with specific Neptune reagents vs a base acid that can be sourced via a local scientific supply company and DIY. Finally, form factor. I want to wall mount things, not build shelves for equipment to sit on, so while a personal and minor preference, form factor is another minus to me. Something like this I would most definitely let others be the guinea pig for me come retail.

So in summary I had been mostly happy with my purchases up until the PMUP era of releases. I feel that perhaps Neptune has been worrying too much about name presence and product style than providing bulletproof products that justify the price tag in the last while. There is zero reason a utility pump should be failing prematurely in RODI water, and frankly even salt water use unless abused, and my faults with that are not unique as it seems at least a couple times a week on R2R or now your own FB group people are bringing up the PUMP commonly failing in different ways. I guess you could also present that in another light; over-promising and under-delivering. Marketing is great, but don't let it get ahead of your product in real world use, like in my COR example. Bad on me for not realizing there was a rather high minimum GPH / RPM of the pump, but also bad on Neptune for making it sound like the pump would operate "feed' mode perfectly, at least from the impression I got from all the pitches online.

In hindsight the only thing I really regret with the summary explanation of my product ecosystem ownership above was not pushing for them to cover the PMUP failures without any cost to myself. At the time I just didn't want the hassle of the back and forth for a number of reasons, I've since stopped accepting excuses with things in general.

What happened since sending that reply in was crickets in return, the entire Trident release fiasco, how they treated another local owner with his leaky $160 CAD reagent order, the classic at my parents house going into a panic'd reboot loop for hours because of AWS reliance, one of my newest by production date DOS's failing with the alkalinty head reporting it was working but wasn't, being laughed at by another industry partner on a company stream for a question regarding equipment and IoTA, and the general snide, condescending tone that's crept into their public facing persona and discourse.

My feeling is that the current incarnation of the company seems to be taking for granted the users that have gotten them to this point, instead hyper focused on marketing to move products that in many cases don't live up to performance or longevity expectations. I never really had much in the way of issues until the PMUP / 2016 "era", and still think overall it's a good platform for most. If it's working for others, I hope it all continues to work without issue. They're just no longer a company I want to support, or suggest supporting to others, for whatever my opinion is worth.

 

[TheHarold]

The router is on the first floor - on the south west corner of the house - the tank is in the basement on the north west side and there are heating/cooling ducts and wood floors that preclude getting from one side to the other (without thousands of $ of renovation).

have you ever looked into a powerline system? It uses your existing electrical wiring to transmit internet. Works excellent, especially in older homes.

 

[chicago]

I love mine.. never really had issues and when I did with programming they were on top of it.. I have had one since the very first one came out. I would disagree with anyone saying otherwise.

 

[MnFish1]

have you ever looked into a powerline system? It uses your existing electrical wiring to transmit internet. Works excellent, especially in older homes.

Thanks - no - I just upgraded our wireless router(s). For the most part my issues with my apex were not internet related (from a tank perspective) - though the wireless thing resulted in maybe 15 hours of time on the phone. It was the unreliability of the product - fully admit - I might have gotten a lemon.

I've since changed my philosophy - to - take care of your tank with your (Human) brain - not an apex (or any other co0bntroller) - because designing the various back ups needed is harder than just hiring a house sitter when I'm gone.

 

[DangerDave]

So far I've lost and replaced

• 3 FMM (one replaced under warranty, the others I couldn't find time so I just picked up new ones)
• one display
• one powerbar
• 6 flow sensors of differing sizes. (none of these have been replaced, not worth the effort).

If I lose anything that requires a sizable investment in the future, I'm going to give GHL a try.

Lets add to that, I just lost a pmup.

Listen, I have lost a few things but I don't want to make my post anti-Apex. I love the app, I love how I can do just about anything I want (except get my 6 AP700s connected, but that's Kessils fault).

The hardware isn't the highest quality, but that's probably because they're trying to hit an affordable price point. I would easily pay double what I've paid for everything I've purchased for higher quality hardware.

Dave

 

[Thales]

The hardware isn't the highest quality, but that's probably because they're trying to hit an affordable price point. I would easily pay double what I've paid for everything I've purchased for higher quality hardware.

I think this hits the nail on the head. You can't really have both high quality and inexpensiveness (yet). I think one of the biggest pushes Neptune has been getting is to make their stuff less expensive, so they are trying that.
I would hate to be an aquarium company - you make stuff robust people complain it is expensive, you make stuff inexpensive and people complain it isn't robust.

 

[smartwater101]

I don’t necessarily think you can blame Neptune for all the WiFi issues experienced knowing how unstable it can be sometimes.

I don't get what you mean by this. I have several PCs, two tablets, phone, several game systems... and probably a number of other things in my home, that do fine online. That including other reef controllers and security cameras, that have no issues staying connected 24/7. (The security cameras start a new recording session it power/internet is interrupted. So its easy to tell if its gone out. And these things are cheap and do fine.)

We shouldn't have to directly connect or "trick" the Apex with a wifi extender (w/ a port) in order to keep it online. IMO its most certainly a Neptune responsibility.

 

[smartwater101]

have you ever looked into a powerline system? It uses your existing electrical wiring to transmit internet. Works excellent, especially in older homes.

Not sure why exactly, but I'm still fascinated that this is a thing lol I just think its cool.

 

[User1]

I think this hits the nail on the head. You can't really have both high quality and inexpensiveness (yet). I think one of the biggest pushes Neptune has been getting is to make their stuff less expensive, so they are trying that.
I would hate to be an aquarium company - you make stuff robust people complain it is expensive, you make stuff inexpensive and people complain it isn't robust.

Enter Abyzz, right? I may be wrong but I'm thinking their market share has to be small.

 

[justingraham]

I think this hits the nail on the head. You can't really have both high quality and inexpensiveness (yet). I think one of the biggest pushes Neptune has been getting is to make their stuff less expensive, so they are trying that.
I would hate to be an aquarium company - you make stuff robust people complain it is expensive, you make stuff inexpensive and people complain it isn't robust.

Was the aquarium given their apex to help with the spawning of the corals or did you guys buy it for full price?

 

[Thales]

Was the aquarium given their apex to help with the spawning of the corals or did you guys buy it for full price?

We had funding in place, approached them for purchase, and they donated the equipment.

 

[MnFish1]

We had funding in place, approached them for purchase, and they donated the equipment.

Quid Pro Quo (LOLOLOL JUST KIDDING)

 

[robbyg]

I don’t think you can fairly compare human life support equipment to aquarium products. No aquarium product or controller is 100% reliable.

This is exactly what @smartwater101 was talking about. You don't believe it is possible because you have never owned a controller that can do it. How many times has your ABS module in your car failed or better yet your cars computer? You will most likely buy and then sell a car ten years later and never had one single computer failure. Heck you probably forgot that it was in there controlling dozens of engine parameters and monitoring dozens of things. It's way more complicated than an aquarium controller yet they are typically 100% bullet proof for 15-20 years.

As an Electronic Engineer I was initially attracted to the Aquatronica for one main reason.
The company that made it was AEB Srl. This is an Italian company that use to make control modules for Planes and Automotive equipment. Their lead designer was a guy called Massimo and he is a Salt Water Aquarium hobbyist. One day he proposed to the AEB managers that they make a spin off division of the company that sold Aquarium controllers. He basically used an existing control board system that they sold and modified the connectors and code to work with the parts he designed afterwards, like Powerbars and various sensor modules. The guys whole engineering life has revolved around making systems that don't fail and just work for decades without even being noticed. He successfully made the first units and had them Beta tested and the company soon decided to create Aquatronica as a spin-off division. Under AEB Aquatronica sold thousands of ACQ110 and ACQ115 controllers globally.

About eight years ago the company went through changes due to the lingering effects of the 2008 financial crash. They dissolved the less profitable divisions of the company. Luckily Massimo was able to buy the Aquatronica Division and opened his own offices and with the help of some of his fellow staff members, He was soon able to build on the company and add many new products like the ACQ140 and also the black box controller.

I had my old ACQ110 controller plugged in for 10 years and it never once locked up or failed in any form or fashion. My AQC140 has been going four years and the only issue I ever had with it was that the first one I got developed a line going down the LCD screen after about 6 months of use.

They told me to keep the old unit and sent me a new one a month later that had a different LCD screen. They said once they got back about twelve units with the same fault they realized that the LCD supplier was not producing high quality panels, so they changed to a different manufacturer. It's now been 3.5 years later and the controller has never locked up, never given a wrong reading and none of the parts have burned out. The bonus is that it is still using the same modules and powerbars from my ACQ110, so all that stuff is still working perfectly after 15 years.

Rob

 

[Thales]

Quid Pro Quo (LOLOLOL JUST KIDDING)

LOL! If the equipment didn't work for the project, I wouldn't be saying much about it either way!

 

[TheHarold]

LOL! If the equipment didn't work for the project, I wouldn't be saying much about it either way!

now I’m curious about what equipment HAS failed in a lab setting

 

[Thales]

This is exactly what @smartwater101 was talking about. You don't believe it is possible because you have never owned a controller that can do it. How many times has your ABS module in your car failed or better yet your cars computer? You will most likely buy and then sell a car ten years later and never had one single computer failure, heck you probably forgot that it was in there controlling dozens of engine parameters and monitoring dozens of things. It's way more complicated than an aquarium controller yet they are typically 100% bullet proof for 15-20 years.

Sure, but that isn't where aquarium companies are. When an aquarium company is as big a car companies, I may change my expectations.

As an Electronic Engineer I was initially attracted to the Aquatronica for one main reason.
The company that made it was AEB Srl. This is an Italian company that use to make control modules for Planes and Automotive equipment. Their lead designer was a guy called Massimo and he is a Salt Water Aquarium hobbyist. One day he proposed to the AEB managers that they make a spin off division of the company that sold Aquarium controllers. He basically used an existing control board system that they sold and modified the connectors and code to work with the parts he designed afterwards, like Powerbars and various sensor modules. The guys whole engineering life has revolved around making systems that don't fail and just work for decades without even being noticed. He successfully made the first units and had them Beta tested and the company soon decided to create Aquatronica as a spin-off division. Under AEB Aquatronica sold thousands of ACQ110 and ACQ115 controllers globally.

About eight years ago the company went through changes due to the lingering effects of the 2008 financial crash. They dissolved the less profitable divisions of the company. Luckily Massimo was able to buy the Aquatronica Division and opened his own offices and with the help of some of his fellow staff members, He was soon able to build on the company and add many new products like the ACQ140 and also the black box controller.

That is great. When they are widely available in the US and have good US service and more reports on use, I will check them out more deeply.

 

[ca1ore]

Apex is hobby grade equipment and priced accordingly. Industrial grade equipment will be much more expensive; so much so that the addressable aquarium market would be negligible. Aquarium Engineering is about the only pseudo-industrial game in town, better quality than apex, but also much more expensive. Yeah, it would be great if industrial controls companies made aquarium control modules .... but who’s likely to pay for them!!

Perhaps GHL is better in terms of quality and reliability; dunno, the only equipment I have of theirs is the standalone doser. My own experience with apex, now almost 6 years, has been mostly problem free. Connect with Ethernet, connect to a UPS with a dedicated power supply for the brain and I think you avoid many stability issues. Also try to keep the modules dry and in lower humidity places.

 

[justingraham]

We had funding in place, approached them for purchase, and they donated the equipment.

Thanks for the response
now would you think it’s safe to say that your opinion of this product is different then mine because of the donation and because you are friends with Terrance?
And if you have a problem with your equipment it’s not really a problem as you could call and get an answer or solution relatively quick compared to me.

I’m not saying that’s a bad thing for you and congrats you have this at your disposal I mean you were one of the first with a trident that’s a nice problem to have

But when it comes to you telling us your side of how you see the product it is way different then anyone of us will ever have.

 

[smartwater101]

because of the donation and because you are friends with Terrance?

It all... suddenly makes sense to me now.

 

[TheHarold]

It all... suddenly makes sense to me now.

Meh; I think that’s kind of dramatic. Just because a legitimate organization recieves it as a donation doesn’t mean their opinion is invalid.

I won a noopsyche fixture here on R2R. Worst user interface I’ve ever seen since the rotary phone, the whites were unbelievably overpowered, and the small number of set points meant you’d notice when it changed from point to point. Just because I didn’t pay for it doesn’t mean I can’t give my opinion of it.

Bought my apex with cash. Wouldn’t set up a tank without own .