New fish quarantine API general cure directions?

[Arose231]

@Jay Hemdal would this be a better option? Coral life turbo twist has 36 watts.

Amazon product ASIN B0064JHW4I

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

@Jay Hemdal would this be a better option? Coral life turbo twist has 36 watts.

Amazon product ASIN B0064JHW4I

Yes, but even that may not reach to kill rate for Cryptocaryon. You need to reach nearly 200,000 uWs/cm2 to kill ich tomites. Here is a write-up I did on the subject for a book I'm working on:

UV sterilizers

Ultraviolet (UV) sterilizers are also sold as a “cure” for Cryptocaryon. The problem is that most hobbyist-sized UV sterilizers do not have the power to make an effective kill on the relatively large Cryptocaryon parasite. Additionally, UV sterilizers are effective only on the tomite/theront stage, as this is the only point where the parasite is even present in the water column.

For velvet, Amyloodinium, the fallacy here is that tomites/theronts must leave the fish. Actually, some of them may get caught up in the fish’s mucus and stay attached until they become infective trophonts again. For Cryptocaryon, the tomites/theronts do seem to need to leave the fish, but with side stream application of UV (where only a portion of water passes through the unit) DWELL TIME becomes the limiting factor. Only a portion of the theronts are killed before enough of them attach to the fish to continue the infection. This means that UV sterilization will not eliminate active Cryptocaryon infections from a single aquarium. Where it does have benefit is in eliminating tomites as they pass through a filtration system from one discrete tank to another (like in a public aquarium or fisheries lab). Decades ago, diatom filters were touted as cures for ich and velvet. The same issue applies with them; there are adherent forms of these protozoans that can continue to infect the fish without ever having to leave the fish’s body. Even if they do, the same “dwell time” factor means that some theronts will still be present in the water column to infect the fish.

A recent study (Ge-Ling, 2022) indicates that the UV dose required to kill Cryptocaryon theronts/tomites is 185,000 uw/S/cm2. They do go on however, to conclude: “ …both ozone and UV are ineffective in controlling infection within an individual aquarium because of the adhesive nature of C. irritans tomonts (Ma et al., 2017). Therefore, the focus on UV and ozone treatment should prevent live theronts flow into aquaculture ponds. Second, the tomonts are strongly resistant to UV or ozone than theronts, implying that recommended production doses cannot wholly kill tomonts….”

 

[Arose231]

@Jay Hemdal just got the jebao 55 watt uv sterlizer. It is a 125 gallon tank how much gph pump would you recommend for parasites like ich?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

@Jay Hemdal just got the jebao 55 watt uv sterlizer. It is a 125 gallon tank how much gph pump would you recommend for parasites like ich?

It’s pretty complicated, but UV sterilizers won’t control protozoan diseases until you reach a very high kill dose. Here is a write-up I did:

UV sterilizers

Ultraviolet (UV) sterilizers are also sold as a “cure” for Cryptocaryon. The problem is that most hobbyist-sized UV sterilizers do not have the power to make an effective kill on the relatively large Cryptocaryon parasite. Additionally, UV sterilizers are effective only on the tomite/theront stage, as this is the only point where the parasite is even present in the water column.

For velvet, Amyloodinium, the fallacy here is that tomites/theronts must leave the fish. Actually, some of them may get caught up in the fish’s mucus and stay attached until they become infective trophonts again. For Cryptocaryon, the tomites/theronts do seem to need to leave the fish, but with side stream application of UV (where only a portion of water passes through the unit) DWELL TIME becomes the limiting factor. Only a portion of the theronts are killed before enough of them attach to the fish to continue the infection. This means that UV sterilization will not eliminate active Cryptocaryon infections from a single aquarium. Where it does have benefit is in eliminating tomites as they pass through a filtration system from one discrete tank to another (like in a public aquarium or fisheries lab). Decades ago, diatom filters were touted as cures for ich and velvet. The same issue applies with them; there are adherent forms of these protozoans that can continue to infect the fish without ever having to leave the fish’s body. Even if they do, the same “dwell time” factor means that some theronts will still be present in the water column to infect the fish.

A recent study (Ge-Ling, 2022) indicates that the UV dose required to kill Cryptocaryon theronts/tomites is 185,000 uw/S/cm2. They do go on however, to conclude: “ …both ozone and UV are ineffective in controlling infection within an individual aquarium because of the adhesive nature of C. irritans tomonts (Ma et al., 2017). Therefore, the focus on UV and ozone treatment should prevent live theronts flow into aquaculture ponds. Second, the tomonts are strongly resistant to UV or ozone than theronts, implying that recommended production doses cannot wholly kill tomonts….”

 

[Arose231]

@Jay Hemdal does having a sand bed with a tank that have ich play a factor in its reproduction cycle? It’s stated tanks with large sand beds can act as breeding ground for the parasite where they could reproduce even more compared to a bare bottom setup with only rocks

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

@Jay Hemdal does having a sand bed with a tank that have ich play a factor in its reproduction cycle? It’s stated tanks with large sand beds can act as breeding ground for the parasite where they could reproduce even more compared to a bare bottom setup with only rocks

It doesn’t act as a “breeding ground”, the fish are where the tomonts start to form. Sand does give a better substrate for the tomonts to develop further. Bare tanks can be siphoned, removing most of the tomonts before they have a chance to release their theronts that go out and reinfect the fish.

 

[Arose231]

@Jay Hemdal what do you think of Paul B and his idea of no quarantine at all and yet his tank is successful and according to him it’s because his tank is rich of bactiera and he feeds them food that contains high bactiera like bloodworms.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

@Jay Hemdal what do you think of Paul B and his idea of no quarantine at all and yet his tank is successful and according to him it’s because his tank is rich of bactiera and he feeds them food that contains high bactiera like bloodworms.

That works for him, but it doesn’t work for most people. It also won’t stop active disease that is already in the acute phase.

I have a project that will evaluate the microbiome of his tank versus a variety of other tanks. Trouble is, during the summer, I spend all my spare time camping or sailing, so I won’t finish it until next year.

 

[Did_My_KH_Drop]

第1

For Neo, you would want to stretch that out a bit; 1, day 7, day 14 and day 21. I used to use 8 or 9 day spacing, but that didn't work quite as well. However, even with careful spacing, Neo often slips through. It has been shown that even a single egg can restart the infection.

Are you aware that multiple treatments with prazi causes growth of a bacteria that consumes later doses? this renders multiple treatments ineffective. I've seen that happen at even 4 doses. For severe Neo infestations, I've gone to using hyposalinity, at a specific gravity of 1.012 for 30 days (no inverts of course). That works much better.

I’ve run into a situation where I dosed Prazipro four times. I could see a noticeable improvement in the fish's condition, but it still didn't completely eradicate the Benedictia (Benedenia flukes). My reef tank has sand, live rock, corals, and anemones. During the treatment, I turned off the skimmer and ran an air stone for oxygenation. Long story short, the treatment failed this time, so I’m planning to switch to hyposalinity therapy.

 

[Arose231]

That works for him, but it doesn’t work for most people. It also won’t stop active disease that is already in the acute phase.

I have a project that will evaluate the microbiome of his tank versus a variety of other tanks. Trouble is, during the summer, I spend all my spare time camping or sailing, so I won’t finish it until next year.

I agree not sure what bio media does for velvet and it definitely won’t do anything for flukes

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I’ve run into a situation where I dosed Prazipro four times. I could see a noticeable improvement in the fish's condition, but it still didn't completely eradicate the Benedictia (Benedenia flukes). My reef tank has sand, live rock, corals, and anemones. During the treatment, I turned off the skimmer and ran an air stone for oxygenation. Long story short, the treatment failed this time, so I’m planning to switch to hyposalinity therapy.

Yes, I’ve had many issues fully curing capsalid flukes with praziquantel. The eggs are resistant to most treatments, and a single egg can restart an infection.

I now use hyposalinity (half salinity) for 30 days. However, there are some brackish water flukes that can survive that (but those are rarely seen in aquarium fish, more often food fish).

I sill recommend praziquantel for home aquarists who need to treat their display tank, or to treat gyrodactylus or gill flukes.

 

[Arose231]

Yes, I’ve had many issues fully curing capsalid flukes with praziquantel. The eggs are resistant to most treatments, and a single egg can restart an infection.

I now use hyposalinity (half salinity) for 30 days. However, there are some brackish water flukes that can survive that (but those are rarely seen in aquarium fish, more often food fish).

I sill recommend praziquantel for home aquarists who need to treat their display tank, or to treat gyrodactylus or gill flukes.

@Jay Hemdal not sure how Paul B hasn’t dealt with flukes in his aquarium when he never quarantines that doesn’t make sense because bio media in tank does nothing for flukes

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

@Jay Hemdal not sure how Paul B hasn’t dealt with flukes in his aquarium when he never quarantines that doesn’t make sense because bio media in tank does nothing for flukes

Not all fish arrive with flukes, but when they do, they need to be treated.

 

[Arose231]

@Jay Hemdal do you agree that when running a uv unit it’s best leave it on and not turn it and the pump of everyday during feeding as that will damage the bulb and shorten its lifespan? It’s best to get a mesh guard or pump timer then constantly turning it on and off everyday I assume

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

@Jay Hemdal do you agree that when running a uv unit it’s best leave it on and not turn it and the pump of everyday during feeding as that will damage the bulb and shorten its lifespan? It’s best to get a mesh guard or pump timer then constantly turning it on and off everyday I assume

I've never heard that, but these are essentially a fluorescent tubes, and those do burn out a bit faster when turned on and off a lot. I always run UV 24/7, why do you turn it off during feeding?

 

[Arose231]

@Jay Hemdal there is evidence that copepods actually survive full copper treatments I have seen it myself. How do you think this is even possible at full therapeutic levels? If copepods can survive couldn’t ich as well?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

@Jay Hemdal there is evidence that copepods actually survive full copper treatments I have seen it myself. How do you think this is even possible at full therapeutic levels? If copepods can survive couldn’t ich as well?

Yes, I've seen copepods survive in amine chelated copper. I've heard reports of shrimp surviving as well.

The shell structure of shrimp is much different than the cell membranes of protozoans. Still, chelated copper products are mild, (that's why we use them) so you need to run a full 30 day treatment, especially if the fish had a moderate infection to start with.

 

[Arose231]

@Jay Hemdal do you agree that in tanks like Paul Bs with rich biome and biomedia marine ich has a much harder time causing outbreaks like they would in a completely new sterile aquarium because the bio media in those tanks are constantly competing making it harder for ich reproduce and replicate?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

@Jay Hemdal do you agree that in tanks like Paul Bs with rich biome and biomedia marine ich has a much harder time causing outbreaks like they would in a completely new sterile aquarium because the bio media in those tanks are constantly competing making it harder for ich reproduce and replicate?

It’s complicated. I’m working on a project that compares the microbiome of his tank to others. I have not found any correlation yet.

There are known mechanisms that reduce the ability of protozoan parasites to find a host: large water volume and low fish density in the most important. Protein skimmers can export some parasites, UV sterilizers may kill some theronts. Good mechanical filtration also helps. Some filter feeding vertebrates remove some parasites. Some shrimp eat fluke eggs. None of this can really overcome an active infection though….

 

[Arose231]

@Jay Hemdal in theory couldn’t a tank filled with only foxface rabbitfish flat out kill ich and end it’s lifecycle because of the lethal serum they produce the ich will keep dying and wouldn’t be able to encyst it would mean doom for the ich essentially..