New Yellow Tangs w/ Crypto (possible entry vector - Live Sand?)

[Lividfanatica]

Hey all!

I posted an update on my build thread and broached this topic on redidt, but i wanted to get this forum's opinion.

First off, i think this is crypto - can an expert please confirm?

Secondly - Here is the situation. I purchased three fish from the same tank at my LFS. Two Biota captive-bred Yellow tangs, pictured below, and a biota captive-bred gold-lined rabbitfish. The rabbit went into my existing tank so I could keep a close eye on it and the tangs went into my new system which housed two clowns from the aforementioned existing tank (they were put in 5 days prior). Two days after placing the tangs in the new tank, they have spots (clowns still have none). The rabbitfish also does not have any symptoms, NOR do any fish in my existing tank. Other tank inhabitants are a yellow barred possum wrasse, small pacific blue tang, red rooster wasp fish, biota aiptasia eating filefish, and a halichoeres wrasse of some sort.

If none of my existing fish, nor the rabbit come down with ich, this means that my LFS' tank was not infected (other fish in that system are also still fine).
My clowns came from my existing tank (no sign of infection in that tank - once again).

The only other "wet" object that went into my new system is caibsea live sand (special grade) - is it possible that dormant cysts came in with the sand??! It is still less than a week since i added the new fish, so i am still in a wait and observe mode.

If it is Ich, ill fallow the new tank at 82+ for 45 days and put the clowns and tangs into QT with copper power. Is it accurate that salifert will not work for testing copper power levels in the qt tank?

Any other thoughts or advice are much appreciated. Ill keep this thread updated on progress with both tanks and all new fish as well as my success (or lack thereof) with treatment and fallow-ing. Thanks!!

 

[damsels are not mean]

Hard to say. The sand could carry cysts, but I suspect the culprit is the LFS tank. Fish can be asymptomatic with ich and it may appear that the rabbitfish is not sick but it could be a carrier and tangs tend to break out more easily. Your other fish with the tangs could be asymptomatic too.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hey all!

I posted an update on my build thread and broached this topic on redidt, but i wanted to get this forum's opinion.

First off, i think this is crypto - can an expert please confirm?

Secondly - Here is the situation. I purchased three fish from the same tank at my LFS. Two Biota captive-bred Yellow tangs, pictured below, and a biota captive-bred gold-lined rabbitfish. The rabbit went into my existing tank so I could keep a close eye on it and the tangs went into my new system which housed two clowns from the aforementioned existing tank (they were put in 5 days prior). Two days after placing the tangs in the new tank, they have spots (clowns still have none). The rabbitfish also does not have any symptoms, NOR do any fish in my existing tank. Other tank inhabitants are a yellow barred possum wrasse, small pacific blue tang, red rooster wasp fish, biota aiptasia eating filefish, and a halichoeres wrasse of some sort.

If none of my existing fish, nor the rabbit come down with ich, this means that my LFS' tank was not infected (other fish in that system are also still fine).
My clowns came from my existing tank (no sign of infection in that tank - once again).

The only other "wet" object that went into my new system is caibsea live sand (special grade) - is it possible that dormant cysts came in with the sand??! It is still less than a week since i added the new fish, so i am still in a wait and observe mode.

If it is Ich, ill fallow the new tank at 82+ for 45 days and put the clowns and tangs into QT with copper power. Is it accurate that salifert will not work for testing copper power levels in the qt tank?

Any other thoughts or advice are much appreciated. Ill keep this thread updated on progress with both tanks and all new fish as well as my success (or lack thereof) with treatment and fallow-ing. Thanks!!

While it looks like ich, the dots are quite large and likely crypto but again, if the fish are small- dots will look large.
How did you acclimate/introduce them?
How is their breathing ?
How is appetite?

Trteament will have to be in a separate quarantine tank using coppersafe and a reliable test kit (not API brand ) will be needed to monitor copper therapuetic levels of 2.25-2.5 at 80 deg for 30 days.
With any treatment - add an air stone for additional oxygen
Monitor ammonia-ph- nitrate levels

What test kits are you using ?

Are any of the other fish at the LFS showing these signs ?

 

[Lividfanatica]

While it looks like ich, the dots are quite large and likely crypto but again, if the fish are small- dots will look large.
How did you acclimate/introduce them?
How is their breathing ?
How is appetite?

Trteament will have to be in a separate quarantine tank using coppersafe and a reliable test kit (not API brand ) will be needed to monitor copper therapuetic levels of 2.25-2.5 at 80 deg for 30 days.
With any treatment - add an air stone for additional oxygen
Monitor ammonia-ph- nitrate levels

What test kits are you using ?

A short drive from the LFS - so floated for 15 for temp and doubled the bag volume of water for another 15 then in they went.
Breathing is fine/swimming is fine.
They eat great (nori and TDO pellets). The smaller one was very skinny when i bought it but now has a nice tummy going.

Copper power is on the way - bought a salifert test kit but someone said on another forum that Hannah is the only test that will read that kind of copper (curious if that is true).

And yes - I read a lot in this forum on treatment so I think I have that down .

Guessing you are not asking about "general" test kits, but rather the copper one i referenced.

Thanks!

 

[Lividfanatica]

Hard to say. The sand could carry cysts, but I suspect the culprit is the LFS tank. Fish can be asymptomatic with ich and it may appear that the rabbitfish is not sick but it could be a carrier and tangs tend to break out more easily. Your other fish with the tangs could be asymptomatic too.

Well, we will find out as the rabbit is with a pacific blue tang - I understand they are highly susceptible to crypto as well. Guessing I should run all of those existing fish through copper/qt before going into the new tank as well just to be safe...

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Rabbitfish are a lot less susceptible to ich due to their slime coats.

 

[Lividfanatica]

Rabbitfish are a lot less susceptible to ich due to their slime coats.

But it would likely still carry it into the new tank, correct?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

But it would likely still carry it into the new tank, correct?

Not necessarily. If it's not infected then it won't be dropping protomonts. It could conceivably carry tomonts or theronts that happen to "stick" to it temporarily from the lfs water.
And, rabbits CAN get ich, it's just a lot less likely to than a tang.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hey all!

I posted an update on my build thread and broached this topic on redidt, but i wanted to get this forum's opinion.

First off, i think this is crypto - can an expert please confirm?

Secondly - Here is the situation. I purchased three fish from the same tank at my LFS. Two Biota captive-bred Yellow tangs, pictured below, and a biota captive-bred gold-lined rabbitfish. The rabbit went into my existing tank so I could keep a close eye on it and the tangs went into my new system which housed two clowns from the aforementioned existing tank (they were put in 5 days prior). Two days after placing the tangs in the new tank, they have spots (clowns still have none). The rabbitfish also does not have any symptoms, NOR do any fish in my existing tank. Other tank inhabitants are a yellow barred possum wrasse, small pacific blue tang, red rooster wasp fish, biota aiptasia eating filefish, and a halichoeres wrasse of some sort.

If none of my existing fish, nor the rabbit come down with ich, this means that my LFS' tank was not infected (other fish in that system are also still fine).
My clowns came from my existing tank (no sign of infection in that tank - once again).

The only other "wet" object that went into my new system is caibsea live sand (special grade) - is it possible that dormant cysts came in with the sand??! It is still less than a week since i added the new fish, so i am still in a wait and observe mode.

If it is Ich, ill fallow the new tank at 82+ for 45 days and put the clowns and tangs into QT with copper power. Is it accurate that salifert will not work for testing copper power levels in the qt tank?

Any other thoughts or advice are much appreciated. Ill keep this thread updated on progress with both tanks and all new fish as well as my success (or lack thereof) with treatment and fallow-ing. Thanks!!

The spots look a bit large to be ich, can you post some pics under white light?

I’ve never heard of Carib Sea sand serving as a vector - technically possible, but unlikely. Live sand from a tank with fish in it is much more risky.

The progression of ich isn’t always straightforward - it can be tricky to judge the route of infection based on early symptoms. It can skip fish for a time, etc.

Jay

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

But it would likely still carry it into the new tank, correct?

I am of the opinion that "most tanks have ich", and the key to preventing an outbreak is to keep the fish happy and healthy. It could be that the new YTs were just stressed and that lowered their resistance a little. Hopefully with a little time and good husbandry they will recover.

 

[damsels are not mean]

But it would likely still carry it into the new tank, correct?

yes a blue tang would be a great canary fish.

 

[damsels are not mean]

I am of the opinion that "most tanks have ich", and the key to preventing an outbreak is to keep the fish happy and healthy. It could be that the new YTs were just stressed and that lowered their resistance a little. Hopefully with a little time and good husbandry they will recover.

This may have been true, may still be true, but the way the hobby has evolved towards more sterility. Based on what I see on facebook groups (where most of the newbies are really hanging online) most tanks are all captive bred these days. Pair of clowns and a gramma in a tank with dry rock and some aquacultured frags is the standard. I think ich is quite rare in such systems. I have never had ich to my knowledge in saltwater despite not quarantining at all until recently. Maybe I was lucky. I know my LFS did some quarantining.

 

[vetteguy53081]

A short drive from the LFS - so floated for 15 for temp and doubled the bag volume of water for another 15 then in they went.
Breathing is fine/swimming is fine.
They eat great (nori and TDO pellets). The smaller one was very skinny when i bought it but now has a nice tummy going.

Copper power is on the way - bought a salifert test kit but someone said on another forum that Hannah is the only test that will read that kind of copper (curious if that is true).

And yes - I read a lot in this forum on treatment so I think I have that down .

Guessing you are not asking about "general" test kits, but rather the copper one i referenced.

Thanks!

Was asking about copper and general kits.
As for acclimation, was very quick. In the future , keep this in mind:
Float for 20-30 minutes
Transfer fish and water into a clean bucket
Then . . . .

Add a cup of tank water to bucket every 15 mins. . . . 5-7 times (almost 2 hours)
Then check salinity in bucket and compare to tank. If no match or very close, add a cup of water every few mins until youve reached salinity and trap fish in same cup and pour off water and release into display. Release under LOW light before lights out.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Was asking about copper and general kits.
As for acclimation, was very quick. In the future , keep this in mind:
Float for 20-30 minutes
Transfer fish and water into a clean bucket
Then . . . .

Add a cup of tank water to bucket every 15 mins. . . . 5-7 times (almost 2 hours)
Then check salinity in bucket and compare to tank. If no match or very close, add a cup of water every few mins until youve reached salinity and trap fish in same cup and pour off water and release into display. Release under LOW light before lights out.

I've seen this "recipe" posted before and it always brings up a question... Doesn't the amount of water you add every 15 minutes depend on the starting amount in the bucket? For example, if the bag has 4 cups of water, and I empty it all into the bucket, then I'm only doubling the total volume in 45 minutes. But if it's a smaller fish and I only end up with 1 cup in the bucket, then I'm doubling the volume almost immediately and it seems like that is going too fast.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I've seen this "recipe" posted before and it always brings up a question... Doesn't the amount of water you add every 15 minutes depend on the starting amount in the bucket? For example, if the bag has 4 cups of water, and I empty it all into the bucket, then I'm only doubling the total volume in 45 minutes. But if it's a smaller fish and I only end up with 1 cup in the bucket, then I'm doubling the volume almost immediately and it seems like that is going too fast.

Yes, you need to use percentage, not "cups of water" Here is an excerpt from an article I wrote for my simple acclimation method:

A simple acclimation process

The following process is one that should be employed for all normal acclimation of animals from one system to another.

1) If possible, determine the water quality values for the aquarium that the fish will be coming from and adjust the receiving aquarium’s values to a similar range. As mentioned, if the values can be made nearly identical, no acclimation process is even required.

2) The fish must be transported from one aquarium to another in a manner that minimizes additional stress. The fish should be kept in the dark, and supplemental aeration or oxygen must be used for any transport lasting longer than about 30 minutes. Heat or ice packs may be required to maintain a proper water temperature during long transports. If you have control over it, handle the transport container carefully to avoid exposing the fish to any undue physical shock. Remember that losses during transport are always skewed to the very end of the transport time, so delays must be minimized.

3) Once at the destination aquarium, turn off the tank lights, dim the room lights and float the sealed bag in the aquarium for 10 to 15 minutes. This is sufficient to equalize the water temperatures.

4) If you don’t already know the values, check the pH and specific gravity of the aquarium and the shipping water. Long-duration shipments (greater than 24 hours) need to be handled differently and are described below. Avoid any increases in specific gravity greater than .004 units—adjust the receiving tank’s specific gravity to match that in the transport bag.

5) Open the bag, and roll the top in on itself to form a floatation collar. Remove as much of the shipping water as you can while still keeping the fish in an adequate volume of water. Add to the bag a volume of aquarium water that equals 25% of the volume of water in the bag. (For example, if the bag holds 8 ounces of water, you would add 2 ounces of tank water.) The fish is now 20% equilibrated. Wait five minutes.

6) Remove enough water from the bag to reduce it to its starting volume, and now add a volume of tank water that equals 50% of the volume in the bag. Wait another five minutes.

7) Remove water from the bag a third time, again reducing it to the starting volume, then add a volume of tank water that equals 100% of the water in the bag (the bag is now 75% equilibrated). Wait five minutes.

8) Release the specimen into the tank. Most aquarists avoid letting any of the acclimation water enter their tank. If the animal has been released into a tank housing other fish, monitor them very closely for signs of compatibility problems.

 

[Lividfanatica]

Was asking about copper and general kits.
As for acclimation, was very quick. In the future , keep this in mind:
Float for 20-30 minutes
Transfer fish and water into a clean bucket
Then . . . .

Add a cup of tank water to bucket every 15 mins. . . . 5-7 times (almost 2 hours)
Then check salinity in bucket and compare to tank. If no match or very close, add a cup of water every few mins until youve reached salinity and trap fish in same cup and pour off water and release into display. Release under LOW light before lights out.

Ah, yes - thanks for the additional information. I do acclimate rather quickly from my LFS as our water parameters are very similar (intentionally so). I agree your method is a good one!

For general kits, i use a trident for Alk/CA/Mag, Salifert for K, NO3, Tropic Marin for PO4, and a refractometer for salinity/SG.

I will try to get some pics tonight under white light - as of last night, the spots still persisted (on day 6 since they appeared). Tangs are still looking healthy and are almost eating out of my hand already/getting excited to see me, as they know I mean food.

I appreciate EVERYONE's commentary! Great community and discussion!

 

[damsels are not mean]

Was asking about copper and general kits.
As for acclimation, was very quick. In the future , keep this in mind:
Float for 20-30 minutes
Transfer fish and water into a clean bucket
Then . . . .

Add a cup of tank water to bucket every 15 mins. . . . 5-7 times (almost 2 hours)
Then check salinity in bucket and compare to tank. If no match or very close, add a cup of water every few mins until youve reached salinity and trap fish in same cup and pour off water and release into display. Release under LOW light before lights out.

What's the point of floating a fish that's going to then be in a cold bucket for 2 hours?

 

[vetteguy53081]

What's the point of floating a fish that's going to then be in a cold bucket for 2 hours?

When you float the bag for 20-30 minutes and equalize the temperature to tank temperature and add tank water- temperature remains constant and is not cold
Not sure how you come up with cold.
pouring into a bucket and then start adding tank water is a whole different story and would lead to osmotic shock

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

When you float the bag for 20-30 minutes and equalize the temperature to tank temperature and add tank water- temperature remains constant and is not cold
Not sure how you come up with cold.
pouring into a bucket and then start adding tank water is a whole different story and would lead to osmotic shock

Transfer fish and water into a clean bucket

^^^This is where.

 

[csund]

Yes, you need to use percentage, not "cups of water" Here is an excerpt from an article I wrote for my simple acclimation method:

A simple acclimation process

The following process is one that should be employed for all normal acclimation of animals from one system to another.

1) If possible, determine the water quality values for the aquarium that the fish will be coming from and adjust the receiving aquarium’s values to a similar range. As mentioned, if the values can be made nearly identical, no acclimation process is even required.

2) The fish must be transported from one aquarium to another in a manner that minimizes additional stress. The fish should be kept in the dark, and supplemental aeration or oxygen must be used for any transport lasting longer than about 30 minutes. Heat or ice packs may be required to maintain a proper water temperature during long transports. If you have control over it, handle the transport container carefully to avoid exposing the fish to any undue physical shock. Remember that losses during transport are always skewed to the very end of the transport time, so delays must be minimized.

3) Once at the destination aquarium, turn off the tank lights, dim the room lights and float the sealed bag in the aquarium for 10 to 15 minutes. This is sufficient to equalize the water temperatures.

4) If you don’t already know the values, check the pH and specific gravity of the aquarium and the shipping water. Long-duration shipments (greater than 24 hours) need to be handled differently and are described below. Avoid any increases in specific gravity greater than .004 units—adjust the receiving tank’s specific gravity to match that in the transport bag.

5) Open the bag, and roll the top in on itself to form a floatation collar. Remove as much of the shipping water as you can while still keeping the fish in an adequate volume of water. Add to the bag a volume of aquarium water that equals 25% of the volume of water in the bag. (For example, if the bag holds 8 ounces of water, you would add 2 ounces of tank water.) The fish is now 20% equilibrated. Wait five minutes.

6) Remove enough water from the bag to reduce it to its starting volume, and now add a volume of tank water that equals 50% of the volume in the bag. Wait another five minutes.

7) Remove water from the bag a third time, again reducing it to the starting volume, then add a volume of tank water that equals 100% of the water in the bag (the bag is now 75% equilibrated). Wait five minutes.

8) Release the specimen into the tank. Most aquarists avoid letting any of the acclimation water enter their tank. If the animal has been released into a tank housing other fish, monitor them very closely for signs of compatibility problems.

This is how I have always done it, I never truly acclimate except temp. Always keep holding tank at 1.025 and dilute to what fish arrive at. Evap brings salinity back up.

I don’t acclimate corals except temp also. Clams I acclimate but not sure if it’s needed.