Nitrate Issue Turned Emergency

[Stigigemla]

I have just read the whole thread and a few things strikes me.
First it must be very hard to decide what to do with so many writing in the thread.
And maybe I will not make i easier now.

First I think the tank has a bad design of the filtering system. The skimmer shall be the first in the line after the surface owerflow.
It ventilates out a good part of the ammonia and so it will be a slower buildup of nitrate. I would take out all mechanical filters because they are populated with nitrifying bacteria. In my shop I have almost 40 tanks but no mechanical filter.

Second thing to do is the ICP test. A major rule in the reefing hobby is: Never do anything without knowing.

You mentioned crabs. They and the blenny could maybe are the reason that there is no algae on the rocks and the bottom. But in that case it should come some on the front glass. What kind of crabs do you have?

Coralline algae need good water values to grow. They dont grow well when the nitrate is high. Also the calcium, magnesium and kH values are important.

 

[Tuan’s Reef]

Can anyone confirm or deny if this is ich? The rest of the apparent spots are just things in the water, the circled part is the only actual spot.

That does look like ich to me.

I just can’t believe how pristine your rockwork looks. I have a 5 month old Nuvo 20 and I used Reef Rocks that seems to have full of life now .

I also top off my tank manually , but I do it twice a day. Once heading out to work and once again when I come home from work. Keeps my salinity nice and stable. Now that I have a controller I can now have a peace of mind when I pick up an ATO and not worry about it overflowing to my tank as I can monitor and remotely turn off as needed.

I picked up a used Apex Jr controller and it’s the best thing I have done.

This hobby consumes ALOT of my free time and any devices to help with these chores is a plus.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I have just read the whole thread and a few things strikes me.
First it must be very hard to decide what to do with so many writing in the thread.
And maybe I will not make i easier now.

First I think the tank has a bad design of the filtering system. The skimmer shall be the first in the line after the surface owerflow.
It ventilates out a good part of the ammonia and so it will be a slower buildup of nitrate. I would take out all mechanical filters because they are populated with nitrifying bacteria. In my shop I have almost 40 tanks but no mechanical filter.

Second thing to do is the ICP test. A major rule in the reefing hobby is: Never do anything without knowing.

You mentioned crabs. They and the blenny could maybe are the reason that there is no algae on the rocks and the bottom. But in that case it should come some on the front glass. What kind of crabs do you have?

Coralline algae need good water values to grow. They dont grow well when the nitrate is high. Also the calcium, magnesium and kH values are important.

What is wrong about nitrate?
A mechanical filter will maintain mainly heterotrophs using the organics by which free ammonia is produced used by other fast growing heterotrophs as long they have a source of organic carbon. Nitrification will be minimal I think as autotrophs may only use the ammonium left over. A mechanical filter should not become a biofilter but using a biofilter has only advantages for managing the nitrogen content in a closed system. The use of a nitrifying biofilter producing nitrogen gas instead of nitrate is a possibility

As most ammonia is released and or leaked directly into the water column the removal capacity of a skimmer for ammonia is very limited. That is what may create an increasing unbalance between nitrogen availability and the presence of other building materials. Systems with a skimmer at the end of the line remove less essentials but minimal the same amount of toxins. A skimmer removes constantly but very selective max +- 30% of DOC including TOC and it may carry out bio-load including all building materials.
. I prefer a skimmer at the end of the line and not only for to have oxygen saturated water entering the tank.
The mechanical filter keeps building materials in the system depending of the cleaning rate. One can manage the removal rate!

This system is probably suffering of insufficient availability of essential building materials . It is not the nitrate level what causes the problems in this system! Nitrate build up is only the messenger! Removing the messenger will not solve a thing!
This system needs building materials and must be cycled again which means the organic carbon supplements must be build of very slowly to be able to reinstall sufficient reliable autotrophic carrying capacity which needs time . The absorbers removed or put in a refuge or reactor to make the absorption rate manageable.


Can you give more explanation about the highlighted statement or give a reference to back up this statement. I am making a study about the role of nitrate in a reef aquarium and as far as I know nitrate availability slows down the calcification rate but only if it is the only nitrogen source. When nitrate becomes the only nitrogen source one may be happy with a low calcification rate. The same for corals.

 

[Stigigemla]

Nitrate prevents corraline growth.
How high is the highest value of nitrate in a tank with corraline growth You have seen?
But of course I agree with You regarding how an aerob filter works.

I have no idea of what is written in a closed Belgian forum ? so your references is of absolut no value for me. It is impossible for me to read them.
If You can show me some open source references from known writers in the science world I will be thankful.

 

[SeaDweller]

Nitrate prevents corraline growth.
How high is the highest value of nitrate in a tank with corraline growth You have seen?
But of course I agree with You regarding how an aerob filter works.

I have no idea of what is written in a closed Belgian forum ? so your references is of absolut no value for me. It is impossible for me to read them.
If You can show me some open source references from known writers in the science world I will be thankful.

I’m almost positive of this too: once my nitrates were high and I measured 200+ ppm, there was NO coralline algae. It died and sloughed off easily off of the tank. Once levels were down in normal ranges, it’s starting to pop back up. I believe high nitrates does inhibit coralline growth.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Nitrate prevents corraline growth.
How high is the highest value of nitrate in a tank with corraline growth You have seen?
But of course I agree with You regarding how an aerob filter works.

I have no idea of what is written in a closed Belgian forum ? so your references is of absolut no value for me. It is impossible for me to read them.
If You can show me some open source references from known writers in the science world I will be thankful.

The Makazi Baharini wiki is not closed! You just have to register to read most articles in the Makazi Baharini wiki. Registration is needed as most articles have protected content. On the access denied page one will find a link to the registration page. A login will be sent automatically. Read only! When content of the wiki is used one has to credit the author or and add a link to the source of the information. That is normal procedure. That is what I do by referencing the Makazi Baharini wiki page containing the information used.

You have made the link between growth inhibition and the nitrate level. Why blaming the nitrate level and not what caused the nitrate level to increase!? The nitrate level can only increase when the algae do not grow fast enough to consume it. Why the algae are not able to consume the available nitrogen? They are not energy limited! They need no organic carbon. It will certainly not be because of insufficient availability of usable nitrogen. Why the link with the nitrate level? Because it seems obvious?

May nitrate prevent coralline algae growth? If true it would be interesting to know the reason why.

Do we have to battle the nitrate level to solve a so called " nitrate problem"? I do not think so!

Does nitrate inhibits growth? Does the nitrate level inhibits growth? I do not think so!

Nitrate does slow down or stabilize growth when it is used. Most organisms prefer ammonium as a nitrogen source as when using nitrate -nitrogen they consume 2x to 4x more energy for cell syntheses which slows down the growth of the cell which may decrease or stop the growth of the community.
Preventing growth is something else. Growth means that more live cells are created as are dying off in the microbial community. Preventing growth of a cell is not the same as preventing the community to grow although it may be linked. A cell may grow with any nitrogen source only the growth rate will change depending of the nitrogen source used. High exponential growth is followed by high exponential die off. Algae communities may still grow when using nitrate-nitrogen as they have an unlimited energy source.
A lot of organisms will not use nitrate if ammonia is present , a question of enzyme activation.
Most algae are able to use both NH4-N and NO3-N the same time. Nonetheless, in an environment without ammonium, nitrate reduction is induced in a similar way by low and high nitrate concentrations. (SanzLuqueEnCo2015)
One may conclude The nitrate level has no or little influence on algae growth! The use of Nitrate slows down the calcification rate by the organism but does not prevent calcification. When all building materials are available calcification is driven by CO3

When we had our first marine tank ( 1972) we had no affordable test kit to test for nitrate. Sometimes ( when the pH could not be stabilised any more) we brought a water sample to the store. A nitrate level around 200ppm was considered normal . And yes, coralline algae may grow in those conditions . That time algae growth was encouraged and was the main parameter for a healthy aquarium. It still is!

 

[Krippledrinks]

Fi

Hello All,

I hate for my first post to be an emergency, but I am really struggling here. Although this has been a several month ordeal leading up to this, I will try to keep it brief.

I am new to the hobby (started my first (current) tank in Aug. 2018), but I am very consistent about water changes, I have never missed one.

Recently, my Nitrates went through the roof, not just a little, but 160ppm while my ammonia and nitrite both stayed at or near undetectable. This ended up killing 2 fish, a bicolor blenny and diamond goby (obvious signs of nitrate poisoning) and it made one fish very very sick. I did big water changes and my nitrates would drop, but overnight they would go right back to 160ppm. I started dosing carbon (Red Sea No Pox) and it has helped over time, but my nitrates have started to rise as I begin to lower the dose. Currently, my nitrates are back at 40ppm, corals aren't doing so well, and another fish died a few days ago with the same signs of Nitrate poisoning. I don't want to keep losing fish and coral at such a quick rate.

Please help me figure out the underlying cause here, I am at a bit of a loss and don't want to hide the problem with Carbon dosing.

I am open to any suggestions, I have tried multiple test kits just to be sure the readings are accurate.

Please see tank stats below.

Tank: Innovative Marine Fusion 30 Gallon
Rock: Reef Saver Live Dry Rock
Sand: 1-2" of CaribSea Aragonite Special Grade
Food: LRS Reef Frenzy (1/2"x1/2" Square Per Day-Thawed)
Sicce 530 GPH Return Pump
150W Heater
Ice Cap 1K Gyre
Tunze 9001 Protein Skimmer
Innovative Marine Aqua Shield UV Sterilizer-Currently Off, Used to Clear An Algae Bloom
Aquatic Life 4 Stage RODI Filter-This Water Tests Clean
Innovative Marine Caddy (Filter Floss, GFO, Carbon)
Custom Lighting Solution

Current Stocking:
(1) Clownfish
(1) Bengaii Cardinal
(1) Dwarf Coral Beauty Angel
(1) Cleaner Shrimp
(1) Peppermint Shrimp
(7) Hermit Crabs
(1) Green Star Polyp (Fairly Retracted)
(1) Xenia (Closed, Not Melted...Yet)

Weekly 20% Water Change with RODI Water
Weekly Glass Clean/Vacuum
Dump Out Skimmer Cup Every Few Days
Top Off Water Every Few Days
Clean Pumps, Equipment Every Few Weeks

Current Parameters:
80 Degrees F
pH: 8.2
Salinity: 1.026
Ammonia: .25 (Normally At 0)
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40 (Was 160 About 2 Weeks Ago)
Phosphate: Between 0 and .25 (Kit Doesn't Have More Resolution)
Calcium: 440
Alkalinity: 20 (Consistently Has Been At 9, Bad Reaction From API 8.2 2 Days Ago)

Let me know if any more information is needed, I really appreciate it and look forward to meeting the community on here.

filtration system is overloaded

 

[Krippledrinks]

Stop adding (chemicals)..to remove the problem......relax.....slow water change, clean off (so called) infected pieces of coral......have fish in a hospital tank ......debunk and rebuild.....copper is a good use for fish but not for coral.....CLEAN ur filtration system....make sure u gather some good bacteria from a healthy system to employ your tank to renew it....than slowly replace all of your beautiful reef

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I’m almost positive of this too: once my nitrates were high and I measured 200+ ppm, there was NO coralline algae. It died and sloughed off easily off of the tank. Once levels were down in normal ranges, it’s starting to pop back up. I believe high nitrates does inhibit coralline growth.

Interesting. It would be interesting to know why and how?

Nitrate may increase fast because the nitrogen for some reason can not be used up by normal growth, in most cases due to insufficient supply of one or more essential building materials. Why the coralline algae died? Because of the nitrogen level or because of the same reason the nitrogen was not used for growth ?
Maybe the coralline algae had it difficult because of CO3 availability as nitrification consumes a lot of alkalinity. To reach a nitrate level of 200ppm a lot of ammonium is nitrified, not including the daily nitrate consumption, at least 50ppm which consumes at least +- 350 ppm alkalinity. Maybe the coralline algae dying off is related to the high nitrate production (alkalinity deficiency) but this does not mean the nitrate level is responsible for the problem.

High nitrate build up is the result, not the cause! Nitrate is safely stored nitrogen.

 

[SeaDweller]

Interesting. It would be interesting to know why and how?

Nitrate may increase fast because the nitrogen for some reason can not be used up by normal growth, in most cases due to insufficient supply of one or more essential building materials. Why the coralline algae died? Because of the nitrogen level or because of the same reason the nitrogen was not used for growth ?
Maybe the coralline algae had it difficult because of CO3 availability as nitrification consumes a lot of alkalinity. To reach a nitrate level of 200ppm a lot of ammonium is nitrified, not including the daily nitrate consumption, at least 50ppm which consumes at least +- 350 ppm alkalinity. Maybe the coralline algae dying off is related to the high nitrate production (alkalinity deficiency) but this does not mean the nitrate level is responsible for the problem.

High nitrate build up is the result, not the cause! Nitrate is safely stored nitrogen.

Wouldn’t know what to tell you. I’ve had plenty of tanks since before 2005, so this isn’t my first rodeo with anything salt water related.

However, up until recently I have noticed my tank not being able to support coralline. Perhaps it’s
1) old water
2) lack of dosing or supplements
3) infrequent water changes
4) build up of nutrients
5) all of the above.

I can tell you in the new frag tank of mine and ever since my levels are normal and almost all water in my DT Is new water now, coralline algae growth has resumed.

It’s purely anecdotal and there’s nothing else behind it, so who knows? I do believe high nitrates probably has something to do with it. In any case, I don’t really care as my levels are normal now.

 

[ccombs]

Updates:

TDS Meter Shows Following:

Tap Water: 120ppm
Tap Water + API Water Conditioner (Originally Used Before RODI): 160ppm
RODI Water (4 Stage Aquatic Life): 0ppm

First Kessil Installed, Will Order Second Soon

Cheato In Place

 

[ccombs]

Update:

Green algae is starting to grow on rocks, after only having Kessil 160we for a few days.

How bright is too bright? I think my GSP (or whats left of it) might not like how bright it is, but I can't have it any lower (Intensity Wise). Should I raise my light? (Height Wise)

 

[ccombs]

Well...

Bad news today. Multiple fish have signs of parasites and I am not sure why I have been unsuccessful so far. Tomorrow I am grabbing an emergency QT Tank for the 3 fish that are left and doing 6 weeks in there. After the first 4 weeks of copper I will move my CUC into the QT tank as a temporary home.

After the tank is clear I will be completely emptying my tank. Buying new sand and bleaching my rocks. I will do a full clean of all equipment and re-cycle my tank for 4 weeks doing a ghost feeding method.

This is quite frustrating but I think it will be best for my tank long term.

I know I had my gameplan that I was following, but this parasite issue has changed the game completely.

 

[elisa h]

At least you know why you’ve been having trouble with fish and know it’s not something fundamentally wrong with your tank. Also algae growing on the rocks is a good sign! The gsp should be able to acclimate especially if you have the intensity all the way down. What exactly do your fish have? Ich? I don’t see a need to do a complete restart unless you really don’t want to wait out the fallow period. The fallow period will give your tank time to mature and keep your nitrates under control since there will be more fish.

 

[elisa h]

No fish*

 

[Belgian Anthias]

It’s purely anecdotal and there’s nothing else behind it, so who knows? I do believe high nitrates probably has something to do with it. In any case, I don’t really care as my levels are normal now.

A lot of reefers do! Battling nitrates should not be a priority as nitrate is safely stored nitrogen and it is not considered dangerous at all. Very high nitrate levels are not harmless to some organisms but this is not the same as dangerous. Being derived from sufficient nitrogen supply will harm all organisms and may create critical situations. Ammonia and nitrite may be toxic to a lot of organisms at very low concentrations. Nitrate production prevents ammonia and nitrite build up and provides a nitrogen reserve which can be used on demand.
Before battling nitrates one should be aware why the nitrates build up. Removing absorbers or down rating the skimmer will show if nitrates rise due to limited availability of one or more building materials. In that case the use of organic carbon should be avoided as this methoth is based on growth and building material availability. Supplementing additional organic carbonate in such conditions may remove the nitrifying capacity.
Nitrate considered not wanted is easily removed by closing the nitrogen cycle.

 

[ccombs]

I just finished reading the thread and I was thinking... what if you don't have a chemistry problem, but something else. I mean... your rock looks so clean because of your big CUC (if I remember well, you have 7 hermits in your relatively small tank) and the Chromis were not killed by some other fish, but they had Uronema. This desease looks like small red patches on the skin. Maybe you should search on the net for pictures and see if it looks like what you saw on your fish. I mean
.. You didn't quarantine the fish and few days in copper at the LFS would not cure anything. Your nitrate problem would (should) be easily solved if you just buy a Brightwell NO3 export brick and seed it with bacteria. Or any other media that you would prefer (from seachem, maxspect etc). I just like the Brightwell because it has sulfur inside and you no longer need to carbon dose.

Quick update. I think you might be right here and I was working under an inaccurate assumption. Although the Chromis had what I thought to be a bite mark and the Blenny was attacking them, I think it might have been Uronema as I am having other fish show signs of it now. This being said. My current tank is 100% broken down for a full bleach cleaning. My sand is in the trash, and my rocks are getting bleached.

I have 2 QT tanks set up as of this morning, one is for inverts, the other is for fish.

I had previously mentioned that I had a gameplan moving forward. This was actually working quite well and my tank was maturing (rocks showing algae, copepods appearing) but now I think my water chemistry issues and fish issues might have been separate this whole time.

Due to the unfortunate outbreak of Uronema, I am ditching my gameplan and rebuilding from the ground up. It was quite a process to figure out what was going on, but I appreciate everyones help here.

With the knowledge I have gained over the past 7 months, I will rebuild a better and stronger tank. I will now fully QT my fish as they come in. I will one day have the reef that I desire to cultivate in my tank.

I am going to use this time to redo with a proper cycle of ghost feeding, etc while keeping my fish comfy in QT. I am going to upgrade parts of my system and come back with more knowledge on how to properly keep a reef.

Something like this would give an easy excuse to give up, but I am using it as an opportunity to learn and hopefully others can learn from my errors and we can all be better reefers together.

If anyone wants to follow my rebuild progress, please see my tank build thread as I will document it.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ccombs-first-reef.562999/

 

[ccombs]

At least you know why you’ve been having trouble with fish and know it’s not something fundamentally wrong with your tank. Also algae growing on the rocks is a good sign! The gsp should be able to acclimate especially if you have the intensity all the way down. What exactly do your fish have? Ich? I don’t see a need to do a complete restart unless you really don’t want to wait out the fallow period. The fallow period will give your tank time to mature and keep your nitrates under control since there will be more fish.

Uronema

Probably the only time I had hoped for Ich lol!

 

[SeaDweller]

A lot of reefers do! Battling nitrates should not be a priority as nitrate is safely stored nitrogen and it is not considered dangerous at all. Very high nitrate levels are not harmless to some organisms but this is not the same as dangerous. Being derived from sufficient nitrogen supply will harm all organisms and may create critical situations. Ammonia and nitrite may be toxic to a lot of organisms at very low concentrations. Nitrate production prevents ammonia and nitrite build up and provides a nitrogen reserve which can be used on demand.
Before battling nitrates one should be aware why the nitrates build up. Removing absorbers or down rating the skimmer will show if nitrates rise due to limited availability of one or more building materials. In that case the use of organic carbon should be avoided as this methoth is based on growth and building material availability. Supplementing additional organic carbonate in such conditions may remove the nitrifying capacity.

Nitrate considered not wanted is easily removed by closing the nitrogen cycle.

I understand the nitrogen cycle. My NO3 build up was from lack of care and over feeding. Now it’s down to 2.5 ppm from 200+, and I’m worried it’s gonna bottom out as I’m keeping acros now. So I needed them lower, but now they’re dropping. A whole new concern for me.

 

[Hermie]

I only read the couple first pages, but I think the problem could be that you are way underpowered in the lighting. Lights are necessary to a balanced ecosystem, and if you are at 160ppm nitrates but have zero algae on your rocks, glass or sand, then lighting is the first thing I would look at. Algae isn't a bad thing, even if it's undesirable, but I can't imagine what else would be limiting in the face of high nutrients.