Flippers4pups
Fins up since 1993
I guess we are in good company with Sanjay, Richard Ross......etc. Their tanks are also insanely high in nutrients and are spectacular, legendary systems.
Nitrates are BAD...no no no they are GOOD!! Wait, What?!?!
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I guess we are in good company with Sanjay, Richard Ross......etc. Their tanks are also insanely high in nutrients and are spectacular, legendary systems.
dantimdad
7500 Club Member
Wow! @Flippers4pups you are out to buck every system there is! High nutrients, inexpensive lights... You just stop right there!
;Hilarious;Hilarious;Hilarious
A few years ago I worked hard to get to zero nutrients and though my tank was ok, nothing grew well or looked good. When nutrients started to rise despite my best efforts I was shocked when everything started looking better and growing more. There definitely is a point (that probably differs a little from tank to tank) where nutrients can reach a level that fuels pest algae.
I am going to disagree with zero nitrate/phosphate being ok. Almost exactly a year ago my relatively new and lightly stocked tank was very low on NO3 but had PO4 in the 0.05 range. I got a little cavalier with GFO and bottomed my PO4 to an undetectable level. The result was dinoflagellates. I promise you, you do not want this evil in your tank. I will never, ever let nutrients get in the ULN range again in my tank! You may get away with it for a while but there is example after example in our nuisance algae forum of people doing exactly what I did with exactly the same result.
I am going to disagree with zero nitrate/phosphate being ok. Almost exactly a year ago my relatively new and lightly stocked tank was very low on NO3 but had PO4 in the 0.05 range. I got a little cavalier with GFO and bottomed my PO4 to an undetectable level. The result was dinoflagellates. I promise you, you do not want this evil in your tank. I will never, ever let nutrients get in the ULN range again in my tank! You may get away with it for a while but there is example after example in our nuisance algae forum of people doing exactly what I did with exactly the same result.
Flippers4pups
Fins up since 1993
Brew12
Electrical Gru
You are definitely rogue. But I mean.. isn't this your system?I'm just rogue I guess. Lol;Wacky
Seriously.. does anyone really want a tank that looks like this?
Well... besides almost all of us?
Flippers4pups
Fins up since 1993
You are definitely rogue. But I mean.. isn't this your system?
Seriously.. does anyone really want a tank that looks like this?
Well... besides almost all of us?
That's a "bad" picture! Lol
I swear, I've got to get rid of some of my candy canes! 400 -500+ heads! It's weeds in my tank! And Euphyilla! 11 heads of torch isn't right! Got to go!
Brew12
Electrical Gru
You have more candy cane heads than many people do zoas!That a "bad" picture! Lol
I swear, I've got to get rid of some of my candy canes! 400 -500+ heads! It's weeds in my tank! And Euphyilla! 11 heads of torch isn't right! Got to go!
If this isn't proof you can run higher nutrients in a system that looks and grows amazing, I don't know what is.
Flippers4pups
Fins up since 1993
Thank you, my rainbow acans (the only acans I have at the moment) just popped 7 baby heads last week. Simple SPS like the montipora capricornis and bird's nest grow like weeds as well. I've got to frag and sell some soon. Out, of, hand!
I actually tested this in two different tanks
First tank ran Gfo/Chaeto for 1 year nitrates 0ppm; phosphates undetectable
Second tank ran GFo/Chaeto only for first 6 months to control algae issue
Nitrates 5-10ppm; phosphates 0.2-0.5; When go above 1oppm seems to get algae outbreak and above 0.6 in phosphates
First tank corals where not popping seem to be faded; second one corals flourished
So I would try to achieve 5-10ppm of Nitrates and P04 between 0.2-0.5
In theory, if tank have more than 0.5 phosphates consider running gfo but make sure you test water. Now of course if you have major algae outbreak this algae actually consumes nutrients as well and may make your corals not to look well either.
First tank ran Gfo/Chaeto for 1 year nitrates 0ppm; phosphates undetectable
Second tank ran GFo/Chaeto only for first 6 months to control algae issue
Nitrates 5-10ppm; phosphates 0.2-0.5; When go above 1oppm seems to get algae outbreak and above 0.6 in phosphates
First tank corals where not popping seem to be faded; second one corals flourished
So I would try to achieve 5-10ppm of Nitrates and P04 between 0.2-0.5
In theory, if tank have more than 0.5 phosphates consider running gfo but make sure you test water. Now of course if you have major algae outbreak this algae actually consumes nutrients as well and may make your corals not to look well either.
dansreef
Well-Known Member
Interesting topic. Having been in this hobby since the late 80's I have seen all sorts of ideas and theories.
I had a 5 gal cube in college with a nem and a clown. I topped off with water from the faucet. I only fed flake food. I never did water changes. The tank was in a western faced window and had a little fluorescent tube light on it. By today's standards, I should not have been able to keep the nem and clown alive for 3 years. I actually gave both to a friend when I graduated.
I have been seriously keeping reefs now for the last 20 plus years with larger and larger systems. I now have a 180 mixed reef and a 150 corner mixed reef running. I have chased numbers. I have tried to attain that magic level where everything grows like weeds and the colors are so intense that those who see it need sunglasses..... Of course, like many I am still in search of that perfect system / setup.
As someone who replied before, you can look at your tank and see if there is something off. I guess I am old school as well. I still test on occasion. I tweak dosing settings. I do little things here and there. You can honestly look at your tank and see if there is something off or if something needs attention. The real challenge for me is not to immediately react to something minor or even a false indicator or a slightly off test. When I started keeping tanks, I was told, let the tank find its "balance" whatever that is. I guess, little inputs as possible and where it can sustain and grow. Of course, I often forget this advice. I then chase something, for some reason. Maybe I read it in a magazine or on-line, or perhaps someone mentioned it. I then end up throwing things way off and after weeks or months of frustration, I remember to just let things settle to its "balanced" state....again...whatever that means. Each tank is different.
I have had tanks that I have ignored, neglected some would say. These tanks have not been the prettiest. They did and continue to grow some amazing corals. My 150 corner falls here. My 180 system is newer, and I spend a lot of time managing that tank. I worked to get to the magic zero / zero parameters for Nitrates and Phosphates. I had BioPellets at one time. I have used different skimmers. I have even started and am using an algae scrubber. As I got closer to the zero / zero… and the longer I stayed there I noticed my corals were less healthy and I had more issues. I suffered a multi-year outbreak of Dinoflagellates. I tried everything under the sun to get rid of them. The strain was Ostreopsis by the way. They decimated my corals, my fish and they nearly forced me to just quit. The fun of the tank had been replaced with complete frustration.
I then read about a theory out of Germany a couple of years ago. No I don’t read German. I found it in English. The theory was that dirty water was the way to go. Dirty water in the context against a zero / zero parameter. Meaning, let the nitrates and phosphates rise… and in doing so let other bacteria and algae grow… which would bring micro-fauna to compete with the Dinos. I had nothing to lose. The suggestions was to feed more. Feed a lot. I have been doing that now for a couple of years now. The Dinos have faded away. I have algae that grows but I can keep in check. I have cyano that appears on occasion but will fade out. I have pods growing like crazy… My green mandarin is happy as a pig in… My other fish and corals are all happy and growing. Are they growing fast, yes and no. Some are…. Some not so much. I spend less time chasing perfection and more time enjoying.
I run my Nitrates probably around 30 ppm and my Phosphates around .05 ppm. I still run an algae scrubber… which grows all sorts of nasty stuff. I clean it regularly…. But not too often. Maybe every 6 weeks or so. I run a big skimmer that pulls a lot of nasty stuff out almost daily. Instead of chasing numbers… I strive now for stability. I try to keep temps +/- 1 degree. Somewhat hard today with the outside temps of -21 below with -45 windchill. (I hate winter!) I keep my PH as steady as I can, but don’t chase a number. I keep Alkalinity at 7.5 and Calcium at 425 with Magnesium at ~1400. I keep my salinity at 1.025. I use RODI for topoff and I use Reef Crystals for salt. I run a lot of flow with as much randomness as I can get. I run Gen 3 Radions. I dose trace and aminos in small, regular amounts.
I guess I am rambling a bit. For me, the temptation to chase perfection has created a lot of past problems. I now try to keep that sage advice from early on, find the tanks “balance”. I now try to maintain good numbers but more importantly stability. It seems to be working for me. That includes higher levels of nutrients. Each tank is different but for me, this is the approach that seems to be best.
I had a 5 gal cube in college with a nem and a clown. I topped off with water from the faucet. I only fed flake food. I never did water changes. The tank was in a western faced window and had a little fluorescent tube light on it. By today's standards, I should not have been able to keep the nem and clown alive for 3 years. I actually gave both to a friend when I graduated.
I have been seriously keeping reefs now for the last 20 plus years with larger and larger systems. I now have a 180 mixed reef and a 150 corner mixed reef running. I have chased numbers. I have tried to attain that magic level where everything grows like weeds and the colors are so intense that those who see it need sunglasses..... Of course, like many I am still in search of that perfect system / setup.
As someone who replied before, you can look at your tank and see if there is something off. I guess I am old school as well. I still test on occasion. I tweak dosing settings. I do little things here and there. You can honestly look at your tank and see if there is something off or if something needs attention. The real challenge for me is not to immediately react to something minor or even a false indicator or a slightly off test. When I started keeping tanks, I was told, let the tank find its "balance" whatever that is. I guess, little inputs as possible and where it can sustain and grow. Of course, I often forget this advice. I then chase something, for some reason. Maybe I read it in a magazine or on-line, or perhaps someone mentioned it. I then end up throwing things way off and after weeks or months of frustration, I remember to just let things settle to its "balanced" state....again...whatever that means. Each tank is different.
I have had tanks that I have ignored, neglected some would say. These tanks have not been the prettiest. They did and continue to grow some amazing corals. My 150 corner falls here. My 180 system is newer, and I spend a lot of time managing that tank. I worked to get to the magic zero / zero parameters for Nitrates and Phosphates. I had BioPellets at one time. I have used different skimmers. I have even started and am using an algae scrubber. As I got closer to the zero / zero… and the longer I stayed there I noticed my corals were less healthy and I had more issues. I suffered a multi-year outbreak of Dinoflagellates. I tried everything under the sun to get rid of them. The strain was Ostreopsis by the way. They decimated my corals, my fish and they nearly forced me to just quit. The fun of the tank had been replaced with complete frustration.
I then read about a theory out of Germany a couple of years ago. No I don’t read German. I found it in English. The theory was that dirty water was the way to go. Dirty water in the context against a zero / zero parameter. Meaning, let the nitrates and phosphates rise… and in doing so let other bacteria and algae grow… which would bring micro-fauna to compete with the Dinos. I had nothing to lose. The suggestions was to feed more. Feed a lot. I have been doing that now for a couple of years now. The Dinos have faded away. I have algae that grows but I can keep in check. I have cyano that appears on occasion but will fade out. I have pods growing like crazy… My green mandarin is happy as a pig in… My other fish and corals are all happy and growing. Are they growing fast, yes and no. Some are…. Some not so much. I spend less time chasing perfection and more time enjoying.
I run my Nitrates probably around 30 ppm and my Phosphates around .05 ppm. I still run an algae scrubber… which grows all sorts of nasty stuff. I clean it regularly…. But not too often. Maybe every 6 weeks or so. I run a big skimmer that pulls a lot of nasty stuff out almost daily. Instead of chasing numbers… I strive now for stability. I try to keep temps +/- 1 degree. Somewhat hard today with the outside temps of -21 below with -45 windchill. (I hate winter!) I keep my PH as steady as I can, but don’t chase a number. I keep Alkalinity at 7.5 and Calcium at 425 with Magnesium at ~1400. I keep my salinity at 1.025. I use RODI for topoff and I use Reef Crystals for salt. I run a lot of flow with as much randomness as I can get. I run Gen 3 Radions. I dose trace and aminos in small, regular amounts.
I guess I am rambling a bit. For me, the temptation to chase perfection has created a lot of past problems. I now try to keep that sage advice from early on, find the tanks “balance”. I now try to maintain good numbers but more importantly stability. It seems to be working for me. That includes higher levels of nutrients. Each tank is different but for me, this is the approach that seems to be best.
Flippers4pups
Fins up since 1993
Last picture from me, I don't want to hijack this thread, because it's not about me and out of wack nutrients. In my opinion, in order to have high nutrients as I do, you need corals to take it up. Higher alkalinity, flow and just the right amount of PAR and time.
Can't over night just up your N03 and P04 to insane levels with a young tank and expect anything good to come from it. Let your tank mature with corals you can keep healthy and let them grow. Your nutrients will follow with growth. Nice and slow.
2016, this cap was a small frag about the size of a quarter and now:
And it's still growing at a crazy pace!
Can't over night just up your N03 and P04 to insane levels with a young tank and expect anything good to come from it. Let your tank mature with corals you can keep healthy and let them grow. Your nutrients will follow with growth. Nice and slow.
2016, this cap was a small frag about the size of a quarter and now:
And it's still growing at a crazy pace!
Jason mack
Monti madness
Totally agree .!!!Last picture from me, I don't want to hijack this thread, because it's not about me and out of wack nutrients. In my opinion, in order to have high nutrients as I do, you need corals to take it up. Higher alkalinity, flow and just the right amount of PAR and time.
Can't over night just up your N03 and P04 to insane levels with a young tank and expect anything good to come from it. Let your tank mature with corals you can keep healthy and let them grow. Your nutrients will follow with growth. Nice and slow.
2016, this cap was a small frag about the size of a quarter and now:
And it's still growing at a crazy pace!
That's a "bad" picture! Lol
I swear, I've got to get rid of some of my candy canes! 400 -500+ heads! It's weeds in my tank! And Euphyilla! 11 heads of torch isn't right! Got to go!
If that torch is causing you too much problem you can send it to me Don. I'll make sure it stays under control!
U
User1
Guest
Last picture from me, I don't want to hijack this thread, because it's not about me and out of wack nutrients. In my opinion, in order to have high nutrients as I do, you need corals to take it up. Higher alkalinity, flow and just the right amount of PAR and time.
Can't over night just up your N03 and P04 to insane levels with a young tank and expect anything good to come from it. Let your tank mature with corals you can keep healthy and let them grow. Your nutrients will follow with growth. Nice and slow.
2016, this cap was a small frag about the size of a quarter and now:
And it's still growing at a crazy pace!
I think this is it more or less in general. The hobbyist shouldn't just fill a box of water and start throwing random fish and corals into it and expect it to work out. Mother nature doesn't work that way and last time I checked we are definitely not smarter than her. The way I see it there are geographically diverse reefs around the world and in some areas you can only find coral or fix X while in another it is only Y and Z. Some cases they overlap or similar but it is setup that way for of all things the food chain...
My personal belief is that we setup the aquarium with this in mind and design the life support system, including fish and corals, around it. That way high, medium, and low nutrients take care of themselves. It just works is what I mean. So to answer I believe people worry too much about numbers rather than picking a system they want to replicate and set it up that way.
I don't test really test (I'm lazy) but when I do it is maybe once a month or if I have something that is looking or acting weird. I do send off water samples more out of curiosity (I use ATI) than anything else. My last one was better than the first one but then again my tank is still maturing. Upgraded in April 2018. 210 gallon cycle started in Feb 18, finished cycle in March 18, let run on auto pilot until April 15, 2018 and moved my small 40 breeder into it. Haven't added anything other than a couple fish since then. In any case below is ATI's summary and my Nitrates are what I would expect along with my phosphates (that lazy part again).
I dont know that it is a good/bad situation by my observations in regard nitrates is that they only need be measurable. Our tank is acropora dominant but it's relatively small with 18 different species. For most of those, I have the best results when the nitrates are <2ppm but measurable. Above that and some seem more apt to brown out when something else strays from my idea of ideal (alk 6.5-7 dKh, Ca 400-430, Mg 1300-1350, PO4 <.1ppm).
"Starving" corals based on nutrient levels is beyond blown out of proportion in my opinion; so long as NO3 and PO4 are measurable, I've yet to see one "starve."
"Starving" corals based on nutrient levels is beyond blown out of proportion in my opinion; so long as NO3 and PO4 are measurable, I've yet to see one "starve."
Reef Jedi
Active Member
Interesting article. My nitrates are almost always undetectable. I have very good export and almost too good. I’ve never seen them drop or rise above .25ppm. SPS have really good color and growth. Interesting as well I have a hammer that grows like a weed. I always thought they liked a higher nitrate but it’s exoloded growth with less. I think stability is more important then anything. Once corals are use to something they can expect and grow faster. Just my experience.
Kimberely
Well-Known Member
All I can add to this conversation is that when I first started out I was doing 25% weekly water changes and I literally starved my tank into a dinoflagellate bloom which I was unable to beat. After losing many of my corals and several fish I gave up and broke down the tank and started over. My nitrates are running between 10-20ppm now and I don't see any significant algae growth (minor amounts on the glass only), and no more brown, bubbly slime of death.
If you show low nitrates it is good. They are nutrients. Nutrients in the water feed your small polp coral. I feed my fish twice a day and nitrates are always low but there. Thanks to my skimmer. Don't be scared of nitrates if you have good export.
PanchoG
The Force will be with you. Always.
I have had no my nitrates between 20 to 25 ppm and my PO4 in some cases touching 1 ppm!!!
However... the tanks is absolutely gorgeous SPS & LPS, I don’t understand!!!
However... the tanks is absolutely gorgeous SPS & LPS, I don’t understand!!!
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