Nitrates are BAD...no no no they are GOOD!! Wait, What?!?!

[drblakjak55]

I am noticing a common finding in the tanks on the blogs looking for help stabilizing their tanks.
Very often I read they can’t keep chaeto alive as well. You can chase numbers up and down chemically
which seems to screw something else up. Give the tank time to establish a balance between your feeding habits and your fish pooping while rock and sand bacterial counts increase to the needed level.
Chaeto can grow with any grow light and flow. Even with low nutrients. Weekly 20% WC one month.
Restore trace elements and the other three hundred things we haven’t discovered yet by feeding quality foods. When chaeto can grow.....

 

[Jackcarp]

I have had a hard time keeping any corals or zoas. My conclusion is that my water is too clean. I've always thought that keeping the Nitrates and Phosphates near zero was the goal but I think that is why my corals always die-they are starving. Since coming to that conclusion, I have removed the macro from my fuge, and have started to feed heavier. My Nitrates and phosphates were always undetectable, so now I want to slowly bring them up and see how some small trial colonies of zoas etc will handle it. My main question is: How do reefers keep corals with higher nitrates and phosphates without getting an algae problem? If someone could please shed some light on that for me I would be especially grateful!!!

 

[Jackcarp]

I LOVE NO3 and I will even go so far as to say I love PO4! I feed both to my reef tank when it wants to be close to 0 on either one. I’m currently dosing PO4, been dosing for a couple months now to bring my tank up, it had fallen to near undetectable levels. I like to have 5-10ppm of NO3 and 0.12ppm PO4. My tank just seems to really thrive there. I think there’s a stigma attached to NO3 and PO4 like they are evil. Honestly I think GFO is evil and has probably killed more corals than NO3 or PO4 combined. That’s for another thread though. (I 100% agree with the high input, high output philosophy in reefing).

Proof is in the pudding...
Alk 9.5ppm
NO3 7.5ppm
PO4 0.12ppm

What are you using to dose PO4?

 

[1979fishgeek]

I’ve lost soft coral (zoa, shrooms, Xenia, Anthia) going undetectable on no3, but sps ans LPS still thrived with it at 40ppm, just the algae did as well! Lol

In my mixed reef I’m aiming for no3 at 5ppm, any lower and softies suffer and any higher the algae goes nuts and my Acro brown out.

But I personally think not enough no3 can be just as damaging as too much. Happily when my no3 increased (when I mucked about switching my carbon dosing .... 40ppm) all the softies I lost grew back from what looked like nothing some up to a year later. So nitrate clearly has a big part to play with corals, it’s just a balancing act with algae and sps colour.

 

[PanchoG]

I’ve lost soft coral (zoa, shrooms, Xenia, Anthia) going undetectable on no3, but sps ans LPS still thrived with it at 40ppm, just the algae did as well! Lol

In my mixed reef I’m aiming for no3 at 5ppm, any lower and softies suffer and any higher the algae goes nuts and my Acro brown out.

But I personally think not enough no3 can be just as damaging as too much. Happily when my no3 increased (when I mucked about switching my carbon dosing .... 40ppm) all the softies I lost grew back from what looked like nothing some up to a year later. So nitrate clearly has a big part to play with corals, it’s just a balancing act with algae and sps colour.

Such an interesting thread, as I posted before I am currently above 20 ppm in NO3 but I have been as high as 50 ppm. I do not use NOPOX my tank is almost 2 years old. Both LPS and SPS are doing good, acros, sestosa, montiporas, duncans, candys, hammers, tourch, zoas, acans, brains, chalice, etc. I think my skimmer reached its limit to eliminate nutrients out of the system. The only thing I notice is I am having to clean the glass every other day, no GHA, no bubble or other algaes other than coraline. When I chased the nutrients down both NO3 and PO4 where undetectable and had a severe dinos outbreak that was eliminated by UVC and adding sand shifting gobies. I learned the hard way not to chase the nutrients down but I do not know how much is too much as I do not see negative side effects, perhaps whiskey and tequila will help me to figure it out! LOL

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

Try to bear in mind a couple of intertwined concepts:

1) reef tanks are case studies in ‘you can’t make everybody happy all the time)

2) with regards to any physical and chemical parameter, every coral has upper and lower thresholds. There isn’t a specific number they need, but rather a range.

When we connect these two ideas, we can start to see that there is a sweet spot (maybe more accurately, a sweet range) where, while conditions may not be ideal for every coral in the tank, they are well within the acceptable ranges for all the corals.

Let the coral tell you if you’re in the right range rather than chase NO3 and PO4 #s around.

Not long ago, there was a thread where a bunch of the super smart science guys (as well as myself) were trying to determine by poring over the research if there was a good target for NO3 and PO4, as well as which one was more important.

The one thing that was determined was that if you’re going to be too low on anything, let it be NO3. Even then, it’s better to have some than not.

 

[dantimdad]

That's a "bad" picture! Lol

I swear, I've got to get rid of some of my candy canes! 400 -500+ heads! It's weeds in my tank! And Euphyilla! 11 heads of torch isn't right! Got to go!

SHUT IT!

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I LOVE NO3 and I will even go so far as to say I love PO4! I feed both to my reef tank when it wants to be close to 0 on either one. I’m currently dosing PO4, been dosing for a couple months now to bring my tank up, it had fallen to near undetectable levels. I like to have 5-10ppm of NO3 and 0.12ppm PO4. My tank just seems to really thrive there. I think there’s a stigma attached to NO3 and PO4 like they are evil. Honestly I think GFO is evil and has probably killed more corals than NO3 or PO4 combined.

By using GFO and or any other absorber in a refuge or reactor the availability of nutrients in the display tank can easily be managed by managing the flow rate.

 

[reeftigergal]

I agree with dantimdad. I can look at my tanks and see what’s needed before anything bad happens. Some nitrates are a healthy eco system but too many and issues start.
Know your tank well, diligence in maintenance, Dose the norm, lg refugium and DIY waterfall algae/turf scrubber in my case, do not over feed and just keep skimming, just keep skimming.
Lol.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Study of the Coral holoboint showed the combination of nitrogen and phosphorus availability may bleach corals. During increased nitrogen availability in the coral holoboint and high symbionts activity phosphorus depletion may interrupt growth and symbiont activity in a way they can not recover.
What killed the coral? The increased supply of nitrogen or the deficit in phosphorus supply due to the high symbiont activity? Nitrate good or bad?

 

[Rick.45cal]

What are you using to dose PO4?

I’ve been using Brightwell Aquatic NeoPhos, that I add to my ATO container. (I do the same for NO3) It’s worked really well for me.

 

[Rick.45cal]

Study of the Coral holoboint showed the combination of nitrogen and phosphorus availability may bleach corals. During increased nitrogen availability in the coral holoboint and high symbionts activity phosphorus depletion may interrupt growth and symbiont activity in a way they can not recover.
What killed the coral? The increased supply of nitrogen or the deficit in phosphorus supply due to the high symbiont activity? Nitrate good or bad?

Phosphate deficiency in the presence of ample nitrates is the worst situation, most aquarists don’t realize this. It’s one of the reasons that it’s important to keep track of both.

 

[Susan Bates]

I'm going shock you, so hold on to your test tubes!

180 gallons total water volume, 125 gallon DT.

I'm running, successfully I should say, N03 at 30ppm to 50ppm. WHAT? Can't be right, right? No, it's correct!

Yes, for nearly a year. I have unsuccessfully tried carbon dosing, HUGE water changes, bio pellets.....etc with no avail. ( Yes, all done absolutely correctly, to be honest, little reductions where had, but none reducing to 5-10)

With that said, I do and have ran a refugium with chaetomorpha for months successfully, pulling a gallon or so out a month. Nice green and healthy.

I do run my DKH high at 10.5 and calcium around 500. Mag around 1400. Kalkwasser in my ATO reservoir top off. Tons of flow and PAR at 300 at the tops off my aquascape.

The other value that will "SHOCK" you is P04. It's at 0.12! WHAT? it's correct!

No pest algaes, DT is free and clear of them.

All my SPS are growing, healthy and colorful. LPS is nuts in growth and color. I have to frag soon!

Water changes are 10 gallons a week with regular Instant Ocean. No dosing anything except alkalinity once in a blue moon and kalkwasser.

Skimmer and occasionally a filter sock.

So, yes you can have a healthy, thriving, colorful reef with insanely high nutrients, but it needs export and needs to be done in a mature reef (12+ months old) over time.

I am not shocked my 2 tanks are the same and i have tried everything

 

[Seminoles76]

I subscribe to the heavy in....heavy out methodology as it’s always worked well for me. Corals constantly getting what they need.....and there is no build up of NO3/PO4.
Feed heavvvvvvy, BB, Oversized skimmer, and your all set.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I subscribe to the heavy in....heavy out methodology as it’s always worked well for me. Corals constantly getting what they need.....and there is no build up of NO3/PO4.
Feed heavvvvvvy, BB, Oversized skimmer, and your all set.

I disagree! A skimmer may solve nutrient problems but nut by removing as much as possible. In most cases a skimmer is the cause of nitrate build up. A skimmer removes constantly max +- 35% of TOC including DOC , but very selective, leaving polar and hydrophilic compounds behind which may accumulate.
This creates an unbalance in the availability of building materials preventing nitrogen to be used up by photo-autotrophs. This may be considered good or bad, depending of the situation.
I don't think an "oversized" skimmer will make it possible to mange a heavy in -heavy out scenario. To manage nitrogen availability easily a biofilter will be necessary.
Of coarse it depends of what is meant by " heavy in".

 

[clicfacil]

I killed off a lot of corals by trying to reach 0 PO4 and NO3, now I feed heavy and hardly ever change my water(tank is 5+ years old). Everything is looking better, but still struggle to keep NO3 in my system. I'm going to add more fish to help raise the junk in my water

Hi, very Interesting your case. I like see pictures of your aquarium, Please, Can you show your aquarium? Thanks

 

[Brew12]

A skimmer removes constantly max +- 35% of TOC including DOC , but very selective, leaving polar and hydrophilic compounds behind which may accumulate.

I think you understand this, but I know people are confused by this statement.
A skimmer does not remove a maximum of 35% of all TOC in a reef tank at all times. What this statement refers to is that a maximum of 35% of TOC's commonly produced in a reef tank have the correct structure to stick to the skimmer bubbles. A skimmer will remove almost 100% of these TOC's. The 65%+ of remaining TOC's will continue to build up until they contribute to almost 100% of the TOC's in a reef tank. These "non-sticky" TOC's need to be removed by other means.
For those who are still confused, I'll try an analogy. You have a gumball machine which contains red and blue gumballs. Every day you add 10 gumballs. 3 are red and 7 are blue. You, the skimmer, only like the red ones. You pull the 3 red gumballs and leave the 7 blue gumballs. The next day, 10 more are added giving you 3 red and 14 blue. You remove 3 red and leave the 14 blue. The next day 10 more are added giving you 3 red and 21 blue. You are removing 30% of the gumballs produced but you are continuing to build up gumballs in the machine. Hope that helps.

Advanced Aquarist has a great study on skimmers that can be found here.
https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature

 

[kendavjac]

Hi, very Interesting your case. I like see pictures of your aquarium, Please, Can you show your aquarium? Thanks

Not great pics, but all I have....I don't take many.

 

[clicfacil]

Interesting topic. Having been in this hobby since the late 80's I have seen all sorts of ideas and theories.


I had a 5 gal cube in college with a nem and a clown. I topped off with water from the faucet. I only fed flake food. I never did water changes. The tank was in a western faced window and had a little fluorescent tube light on it. By today's standards, I should not have been able to keep the nem and clown alive for 3 years. I actually gave both to a friend when I graduated.


I have been seriously keeping reefs now for the last 20 plus years with larger and larger systems. I now have a 180 mixed reef and a 150 corner mixed reef running. I have chased numbers. I have tried to attain that magic level where everything grows like weeds and the colors are so intense that those who see it need sunglasses..... Of course, like many I am still in search of that perfect system / setup.


As someone who replied before, you can look at your tank and see if there is something off. I guess I am old school as well. I still test on occasion. I tweak dosing settings. I do little things here and there. You can honestly look at your tank and see if there is something off or if something needs attention. The real challenge for me is not to immediately react to something minor or even a false indicator or a slightly off test. When I started keeping tanks, I was told, let the tank find its "balance" whatever that is. I guess, little inputs as possible and where it can sustain and grow. Of course, I often forget this advice. I then chase something, for some reason. Maybe I read it in a magazine or on-line, or perhaps someone mentioned it. I then end up throwing things way off and after weeks or months of frustration, I remember to just let things settle to its "balanced" state....again...whatever that means. Each tank is different.


I have had tanks that I have ignored, neglected some would say. These tanks have not been the prettiest. They did and continue to grow some amazing corals. My 150 corner falls here. My 180 system is newer, and I spend a lot of time managing that tank. I worked to get to the magic zero / zero parameters for Nitrates and Phosphates. I had BioPellets at one time. I have used different skimmers. I have even started and am using an algae scrubber. As I got closer to the zero / zero… and the longer I stayed there I noticed my corals were less healthy and I had more issues. I suffered a multi-year outbreak of Dinoflagellates. I tried everything under the sun to get rid of them. The strain was Ostreopsis by the way. They decimated my corals, my fish and they nearly forced me to just quit. The fun of the tank had been replaced with complete frustration.


I then read about a theory out of Germany a couple of years ago. No I don’t read German. I found it in English. The theory was that dirty water was the way to go. Dirty water in the context against a zero / zero parameter. Meaning, let the nitrates and phosphates rise… and in doing so let other bacteria and algae grow… which would bring micro-fauna to compete with the Dinos. I had nothing to lose. The suggestions was to feed more. Feed a lot. I have been doing that now for a couple of years now. The Dinos have faded away. I have algae that grows but I can keep in check. I have cyano that appears on occasion but will fade out. I have pods growing like crazy… My green mandarin is happy as a pig in… My other fish and corals are all happy and growing. Are they growing fast, yes and no. Some are…. Some not so much. I spend less time chasing perfection and more time enjoying.


I run my Nitrates probably around 30 ppm and my Phosphates around .05 ppm. I still run an algae scrubber… which grows all sorts of nasty stuff. I clean it regularly…. But not too often. Maybe every 6 weeks or so. I run a big skimmer that pulls a lot of nasty stuff out almost daily. Instead of chasing numbers… I strive now for stability. I try to keep temps +/- 1 degree. Somewhat hard today with the outside temps of -21 below with -45 windchill. (I hate winter!) I keep my PH as steady as I can, but don’t chase a number. I keep Alkalinity at 7.5 and Calcium at 425 with Magnesium at ~1400. I keep my salinity at 1.025. I use RODI for topoff and I use Reef Crystals for salt. I run a lot of flow with as much randomness as I can get. I run Gen 3 Radions. I dose trace and aminos in small, regular amounts.


I guess I am rambling a bit. For me, the temptation to chase perfection has created a lot of past problems. I now try to keep that sage advice from early on, find the tanks “balance”. I now try to maintain good numbers but more importantly stability. It seems to be working for me. That includes higher levels of nutrients. Each tank is different but for me, this is the approach that seems to be best.

I had a similar experience, I am currently looking for that nitrates phosphate balance and I try to keep the nitrates between 0 and 5 and I see that there everything gets better when they turn 10 and some problems begin. But yes, you have to feed and see how to do so that for example bacteria, BIOPELLETS, Skimmer or GFO is maintained at the level that everyone is happy. When we achieve that balance the aquarium looks splendid

Thanks for sharing your experience and photos

 

[Seminoles76]

I disagree! A skimmer may solve nutrient problems but nut by removing as much as possible. In most cases a skimmer is the cause of nitrate build up. A skimmer removes constantly max +- 35% of TOC including DOC , but very selective, leaving polar and hydrophilic compounds behind which may accumulate. This creates an unbalance in the availability of building materials preventing nitrogen to be used up by photo-autotrophs. This may be considered good or bad, depending of the situation.
I don't think an "oversized" skimmer will make it possible to mange a heavy in -heavy out scenario. To manage nitrogen availability easily a biofilter will be necessary.
Of coarse it depends of what is meant by " heavy in".

Thanks for your explanation. I have always ran my tanks that way. My current system is roughly 16 months old. NO3 never measured more than 5, PO4 never more than .02 on Hannah URL. My heavy in consists of auto feeder four times a day, big chunk of Rods, three cubes of mysis, 5 ml acropower, and either reef roids or chili daily on a 120 gallon heavy stocked system. There has never been a single strand of GHA or other algae besides a film on the glass. There are no filter socks, no refugium, and no carbon dosing.

I do conduct a 10% water change weekly which I failed to mention in my original post. Under your theory, I’m now removing 45% of the input weekly. Please explain why under the conditions I have listed, why NO3 has never rose above 3-5 and PO4 never above .02. I’m also guessing that was a typo from you, or you were responding after drinking some of Grandmas cough syrup when you stated the skimmer is the cause of nitrate build up.