Nitrates are BAD...no no no they are GOOD!! Wait, What?!?!

[Brew12]

How much is LOW?
Recent research (2016) about the coral holoboint from different sources showed increased nitrogen availability lowers the calcification rate but increases symbiont activities and increases photosynthesis . Increased P availability in combination with sufficient CO3 ( the limiting factor) increases calcification and does not influence symbiont activities much.
Photo-synthesis is highly dependable of nitrogen availability.
Increased nitrogen availability increases P take up. P starvation at high demand is one of the reasons of coral bleaching. During such research the situation in the coral holoboint is manipulated. The coral holoboint is able to regulate and adjust the nitrogen supply as required ( within certain limits) even may fix nitrogen when the supply is insufficient.
P is used as necessary in the ratio needed and may be the limiting factor if limited available. P is provided by dissimulation and remineralisation within the holoboint but is of coarse influenced by the availability in the water column.
Maintaining measurable levels of P seems to be the best option when a lot of nitrogen is cycled daily.
One has also to take in account what reefers want to see. Who wants brownish corals!? A factor not included in the research about coral holoboint .
P availability is very important for nitrogen management.
Is nitrogen bad? Certainly when there is not enough! I also think corals are fine with high nitrates. Delbeek&Sprung advised 10ppm (Delbeek, J. Charles, en Julian Sprung. The Reef Aquarium, Volume Three. Volume Three. Coconut Grove, Fla.: Ricordea Pub., 2005.) When BADES bio-filters are used for managing the nitrogen content in a high nutrient input system it is adviced the nitrate level is kept between 2 and 4 ppm NO3 and P +- 0.05 ppm.

Just so you know, your links only work for people with access to the website. Most of us can't read them.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Just so you know, your links only work for people with access to the website. Most of us can't read them.

If access is not allowed for the referenced article normally an access denied page is shown with log in. On this page should be a link to the registration page. Once registered (for free) an email is send automatically to the registered email address with the login code. A lot of articles in Makazi Baharini wiki have protected contend and are read only. Once registered one has access to most articles in the wiki. The wiki content is written in Dutch , a lot of articles are translated to English.

 

[CherBear811]

I'm going shock you, so hold on to your test tubes!

180 gallons total water volume, 125 gallon DT.

I'm running, successfully I should say, N03 at 30ppm to 50ppm. WHAT? Can't be right, right? No, it's correct!

Yes, for nearly a year. I have unsuccessfully tried carbon dosing, HUGE water changes, bio pellets.....etc with no avail. ( Yes, all done absolutely correctly, to be honest, little reductions where had, but none reducing to 5-10)

With that said, I do and have ran a refugium with chaetomorpha for months successfully, pulling a gallon or so out a month. Nice green and healthy.

I do run my DKH high at 10.5 and calcium around 500. Mag around 1400. Kalkwasser in my ATO reservoir top off. Tons of flow and PAR at 300 at the tops off my aquascape.

The other value that will "SHOCK" you is P04. It's at 0.12! WHAT? it's correct!

No pest algaes, DT is free and clear of them.

All my SPS are growing, healthy and colorful. LPS is nuts in growth and color. I have to frag soon!

Water changes are 10 gallons a week with regular Instant Ocean. No dosing anything except alkalinity once in a blue moon and kalkwasser.

Skimmer and occasionally a filter sock.

So, yes you can have a healthy, thriving, colorful reef with insanely high nutrients, but it needs export and needs to be done in a mature reef (12+ months old) over time.

This was called rogue by a few folks, but I would say that's only in perception not in facts. Meaning for years it was preached no nitrates or ULN. Now it's nitrates are good but they should be low.

In my last system, my nitrates were never under 50, and I mean never. Not sure what they were honestly but they were always red by the API test. LOL... I fed my fish and corals heavily and that tank ROCKED. SPS and LPS all did well, as did the few softies I had (xenia and some zoas). In fact my sps grew surprisingly fast. I had a hard time keeping up with CA and ALK demands. Color was also very good. Had a valida with blinding purple. I've never seen such blinding purple on a coral, to this day. It was a 75 gallon tank and I ran 3 x 250W 20,000 K MHs.

It's not rogue; it's just not commonly done because everyone has been programmed to keep nitrates as low as possible or at least below 20. IMO phosphate is a much bigger problem regarding coral health.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

. IMO phosphate is a much bigger problem regarding coral health.

What should be the big problem of phosphate regarding coral health?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Corals were exposed to unbalanced N: P ratios in long-term experiments and it was found that the under-supply of phosphate severely disturbed symbiosis, which is indicated by the loss of coral biomass, malfunctioning of photosynthesis of algae and bleaching of the coral. In contrast, the corals tolerated a sub-supply of nitrogen at high phosphate concentrations without negative effects on symbiont photosynthesis, suggesting a better adaptation to nitrogen restriction.

In a nitrogen restricted environment the coral holobiont is able to provide the coral symbionts with nitrogen via nitrogen fixation.

 

[CherBear811]

What should be the big problem of phosphate regarding coral health?

It's been noted that it can inhibit skeletal growth and causes a browning or even worse, bleaching, of coral due to inhibiting photosynthesis of the zooanxellae. This has been my personal experience. If my corals start to fade or brown, I check everything and it's always a high phosphate reading. That's NOT to say we should be aiming for 0 phosphate at all. My corals seem to do best at .1 or under, but not below .05.

 

[CherBear811]

If anyone is interested....

"Phosphate contamination can negatively affect corals, modifying growth rates, skeletal density, reproduction, mortality, and zooxanthellae. We determined the effects of elevated phosphate on coral growth and density. Genetically distinct colonies of Acropora muricatawere sub-divided and distributed among three 110-L aquaria, and exposed to phosphate levels of 0.09, 0.20, and 0.50 mg L− 1 for four months. Total skeletal length, living tissue length, weight, branch production, and polyp extension were measured. Linear extension and tissue growth increased under all conditions. Growth rates were highest at a phosphate concentration of 0.50 mg L− 1. Weight increased through time, graded from low to high with phosphate concentration. Density decreased through time, and was significantly lowest in the high phosphate treatment. Phosphate concentration produced no visible effects of stress on the corals, as indicated by polyp extension and lack of mortality. It is suggested that the phosphate enhanced growth was due to increased zooxanthellar populations and photosynthetic production within the coral. Skeletal density reduction may be due to phosphate binding at the calcifying surface and the creation of a porous and structurally weaker calcium carbonate/calcium phosphate skeleton. Increased phosphate concentrations, often characteristic of eutrophic conditions, caused increased coral growth but also a more brittle skeleton. The latter is likely more susceptible to breakage and damage from other destructive forces (e.g., bioerosion) and makes increased coral growth a poor indicator of reef health."

"►Effects of elevated phosphate on coral growth and density, Acropora formosa. ►Exptl. phosphate levels — 0.09, 0.20, and 0.50 mg/L, > four months lab exposure. ►Growth rates and weight gain highest at 0.50 mg phosphate/L, but skeletal density lowest there. ►Phosphate increases growth but lowers density; coral growth is a poor reef health indicator. ►Results support the Janus effect concept on coral reefs."

I digress. Sorry for highjacking the thread.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022098111004588

 

[Ashley Kekua]

And I have been around along time and not too many people said zero because it used to be hard to get to other than latter on when the bacteria/carbon system started like zeovit came into play.
Slightly higher nitrates have never been a issue. Phosphate is the one that needed to be lower.

It all depends on how you keep a reef though. Zero can still be good for those that want to have full control over their reef and add the nutrients and food levels they want to add.

Problem is so many took stuff to the extreme and stop feeding their corals trying to get to zero. Zero is not bad if your corals are getting food and they get their nutrients from food.
Corals can get nitrogen source from the food you feed or bacteria if they feed on that. Every living thing needs nitrogen to survive. We started starving our corals. If you want zero you need to add stuff back in. One reason things like amino acids became popular.
The problem is very few know how to keep a tank at zero and the problem is so many people got confused on methodology.
Mainly because there are so many on the forums that read something and parrot what they read without really understanding the methodology or what it applies to.

Basically I do not think it has changed people just do not understand all the different methodologies on how to keep a reef. Sometimes people start start combining them with out understanding them.
I think somewhere along the line we forgot our corals do better with food. On a reef nutrients are in short supply but food is not. My corals are getting light so time to add some nitrogen or better yet feed your coral.

I think the other reason we hear zero is so many are trying to starve off algae.
Nothing wrong with a little algae and it is natural in a reef but people panic over a little algae.

There is more than one way to keep a reef.

I agree to this!

 

[Ashley Kekua]

It's been noted that it can inhibit skeletal growth and causes a browning or even worse, bleaching, of coral due to inhibiting photosynthesis of the zooanxellae. This has been my personal experience. If my corals start to fade or brown, I check everything and it's always a high phosphate reading. That's NOT to say we should be aiming for 0 phosphate at all. My corals seem to do best at .1 or under, but not below .05.

i also see this experience same to you!

 

[Ashley Kekua]

Lets back up....I think using API tests are bad

nothing wrong with API test kits...

 

[Ashley Kekua]

I’ve lost soft coral (zoa, shrooms, Xenia, Anthia) going undetectable on no3, but sps ans LPS still thrived with it at 40ppm, just the algae did as well! Lol

In my mixed reef I’m aiming for no3 at 5ppm, any lower and softies suffer and any higher the algae goes nuts and my Acro brown out.

But I personally think not enough no3 can be just as damaging as too much. Happily when my no3 increased (when I mucked about switching my carbon dosing .... 40ppm) all the softies I lost grew back from what looked like nothing some up to a year later. So nitrate clearly has a big part to play with corals, it’s just a balancing act with algae and sps colour.

this sure does happen for me as well!

 

[CherBear811]

I have been using API tests for decades. Literally. For Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Alk (I use a double sample size so each drop = .5 dkh for better accuracy, and when I am close to my maximum threshold, I use my Hanna for precision), pH, Ca... they are all fine. API is not as precise, which is not the same as giving bad results. People notoriously use the nitrate test incorrectly, and don't properly pound the ever loving crap out of the second bottle, and thus get false low results, but that's user error. They are fine for giving a a baseline range. I don't need to know the precise measurement for most of these, unless I am close to a threshold. I only use Hanna for phosphate for this reason. When I want a more precise Ca test, I use Elos; Alk, I use Hanna; NO3, Red Sea Nitrate Pro. And I use Salifert for Mg, K and O2.

If you run higher nitrates, no other test is going to tell you with more precision.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

If anyone is interested....


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022098111004588

By publishing a copy of the text you have published protected content and violated the publication rights of the publisher and authors. One must be careful with this, not only to prevent judicial prosecution but mainly because we do not want to lose free access to protected content. The published part of the article is NOT free access.
A lot of researchers publish their papers for free access and download for personal use only or depending of the publishing rights text may be used when referring to the author and or the article. They expect these publication rights are respected. Without these "free" publications getting access to approved research information may become very expensive as reading a protected article is expensive. When using the link
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022098111004588 try to open the full article and one will know what I am talking about.

It is very important we respect publication rights if we want to keep" free access" to valuable information.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

It's been noted that it can inhibit skeletal growth and causes a browning or even worse, bleaching, of coral due to inhibiting photosynthesis of the zooanxellae. This has been my personal experience. If my corals start to fade or brown, I check everything and it's always a high phosphate reading. That's NOT to say we should be aiming for 0 phosphate at all. My corals seem to do best at .1 or under, but not below .05.

Recent research has shown increased P availability INCREASES calcification rates if enough CO3 is available and bleaching is caused by P starvation at increased growth rates ( temp, light intensity, nutrient availability)
It was shown high phosphate availability does not effect coral symbiont photosynthese much.

The nutrient availability in the coral holobiont will be completely different as measured in the water column but what is not there can not be provided. It all happens in a self supporting microbial community driven by its environment.
What we measure is what is not used up. There is enough of it in the water column. If the level increases this will be caused due to other factors which may have nothing to do with the measured level. Is the increase caused by less growth or is growth limited by the level?
In most cases when the level increases other factors are limiting growth and it will not be the level of that nutrient which is responsible for the problem. ( CMF De Haes )

 

[Ashley Kekua]

I have been using API tests for decades. Literally. For Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Alk (I use a double sample size so each drop = .5 dkh for better accuracy, and when I am close to my maximum threshold, I use my Hanna for precision), pH, Ca... they are all fine. API is not as precise, which is not the same as giving bad results. People notoriously use the nitrate test incorrectly, and don't properly pound the ever loving crap out of the second bottle, and thus get false low results, but that's user error. They are fine for giving a a baseline range. I don't need to know the precise measurement for most of these, unless I am close to a threshold. I only use Hanna for phosphate for this reason. When I want a more precise Ca test, I use Elos; Alk, I use Hanna; NO3, Red Sea Nitrate Pro. And I use Salifert for Mg, K and O2.

If you run higher nitrates, no other test is going to tell you with more precision.

Yes this is the problem..people dont shake enough!!!

 

[fish farmer]

I have a dirty reef.

Old rock, dirty sand, neglected WC's and soft weed corals.

In March 2017 I added a pencil sized hammer coral. It grew extremely well and is the reason I wanted to clean my tank up. It was my champ, nothing phased it, alk swings, less than ideal calcium levels or temp fluxes. It grew around 15 heads in a year and a half.

When I started testing PO4 and NO3 again this year (July) I had PO4 averaging at 1.62 ppm and NO3 at 30 ppm for three months.
In October I added a chaeto grow area, for the next three months PO4 was 0.83 ppm and NO3 at 20 ppm.

Within the last few weeks my hammer hasn't expanded well, my average levels for January and today are PO4 at .5ppm and NO3 at 8.25ppm. Some of my other hammers, two frags from this one and a different color morph also aren't as full.

 

[CherBear811]

By publishing a copy of the text you have published protected content and violated the publication rights of the publisher and authors. One must be careful with this, not only to prevent judicial prosecution but mainly because we do not want to lose free access to protected content. The published part of the article is NOT free access.
A lot of researchers publish their papers for free access and download for personal use only or depending of the publishing rights text may be used when referring to the author and or the article. They expect these publication rights are respected. Without these "free" publications getting access to approved research information may become very expensive as reading a protected article is expensive. When using the link
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022098111004588 try to open the full article and one will know what I am talking about.

It is very important we respect publication rights if we want to keep" free access" to valuable information.

The text I pasted is open and no need to access the full article to see it. It's in the abstract, and that is commonly done without any repercussion. Had I copy/pasted text from the protected, full article, yes, perhaps. But I didn't. Literally anyone can see what I pasted when they go to that page.

 

[Ashley Kekua]

I have a dirty reef.

Old rock, dirty sand, neglected WC's and soft weed corals.

In March 2017 I added a pencil sized hammer coral. It grew extremely well and is the reason I wanted to clean my tank up. It was my champ, nothing phased it, alk swings, less than ideal calcium levels or temp fluxes. It grew around 15 heads in a year and a half.

When I started testing PO4 and NO3 again this year (July) I had PO4 averaging at 1.62 ppm and NO3 at 30 ppm for three months.
In October I added a chaeto grow area, for the next three months PO4 was 0.83 ppm and NO3 at 20 ppm.

Within the last few weeks my hammer hasn't expanded well, my average levels for January and today are PO4 at .5ppm and NO3 at 8.25ppm. Some of my other hammers, two frags from this one and a different color morph also aren't as full.

are you meant to say that hammer coral like dirtier water??? mean more phosphate and nitrate?

 

[fish farmer]

are you meant to say that hammer coral like dirtier water??? mean more phosphate and nitrate?

Just that mine preferred dirty conditions and seemed to becoming distressed under cleaner conditions. It could be that it got used to the conditions it was growing in and when the conditions changed "for the better", it seems to not like it. FWIW my softies, like mushrooms, palys, nepthia haven't reacted positively or negatively to cleaner water conditions.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Just that mine preferred dirty conditions and seemed to becoming distressed under cleaner conditions. It could be that it got used to the conditions it was growing in and when the conditions changed "for the better", it seems to not like it. FWIW my softies, like mushrooms, palys, nepthia haven't reacted positively or negatively to cleaner water conditions.

I have 3 dendronephthya same conditions