Bluelobstor
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Nitrates are BAD...no no no they are GOOD!! Wait, What?!?!
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Seminoles76
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Thanks for the post Brew. I’m on my phone and didn’t see your post before I replied to Belgian. Your explanation makes perfect sense to me. In my scenario I am guessing the fish, coral, and cleanup crew are removing the remaining blue gum balls.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
Fish and the CuC aren't going to be removing much NO3 from the water but they do impact the level of NO3 in the system. Coral, algae, bacteria and possibly some inverts are the most likely place your NO3 is going. Well, and your water changes.
Seminoles76
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Yeah. That is what I meant in that they are taking it out before it can break down and the bacteria within the Pukani Rock.
I run an oversized skimmer and it fits your gum ball analogy perfectly. I feed really heavy and have a great foam head on the skimmer all day long into the night. Usually in the morning when I wake, there is zero foam head (all red gum balls removed). As soon as I start feeding again, an hour later there is the foam head and nasty skim.
I run an oversized skimmer and it fits your gum ball analogy perfectly. I feed really heavy and have a great foam head on the skimmer all day long into the night. Usually in the morning when I wake, there is zero foam head (all red gum balls removed). As soon as I start feeding again, an hour later there is the foam head and nasty skim.
radar_17
Active Member
I honestly never measure nitrate after the initial cycle. Never had a reason to.
If I see more algae on the glass, I either reduce feeding or up my skimming. If I see corals losing color and I think it's not enough nutrients, feeding goes up and the skimmer cup comes off a few hours a day.
To me, it's all about how your tank looks, not numbers. But, then again, I am old school and apparently the younger crowd knows better than I.
That is pretty much my philosophy as well. I do measure it once a month or so, but I use the cheap API test that only starts to register if you've hit the 20 ppm range. As long as I'm not registering anything with that test and the algae's not taking over I don't worry. I have definitely noticed reduced color in the sps when I get the nitrates too low (which I assume is the case when there's very little algae growth). My phosphate seem to ride pretty steady around .03-.05 ppm. I use skimmer and algae reactor for export.
Belgian Anthias
Valuable Member
Nice explanation .
But it is not completely correct as not skimmed compounds ( the blue organic balls) are continuously remineralized into inorganic compounds. There is no next day for most "blue balls". Non skim able compounds may fall apart leaving skim able compounds. For example a non skim able amino-acid is oxidized and falls apart in Phenols and Cresols. These toxic Phenols may be skimmed but are rapidly oxidized into harmless organic colour pigments yellowing the water.
Remineralisation removes the "bleu balls", completes the carbon cycle and provides most building materials needed for new primary organic growth and nitrogen consumption. As most nitrogen is released directly into the water column as ammonia and urea most of the nitrogen is not removed by a skimmer this way creating an unbalance in available building materials.
This should not be a problem as the nitrogen content and the nitrate level can be managed easily in high nutrient systems.
There is no such thing as bad nitrate.
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Belgian Anthias
Valuable Member
My opinion using biopellets is the worst method of all for managing nitrogen content. One has no control over the removal rate and the previously installed autotrophic based carrying capacity may be replaced or removed partially or completely. The stability of an autotrophic carrying capacity based on reliable ammonia reduction will be replaced by an unstable heterotrophic based carrying capacity. All this just to lower safely stored nitrogen and to store it into continuously recycled biomass.
How bad can nitrate be?
Brew12
Electrical Gru
The analogy is very oversimplified but it does get across how a skimmer selectively works. Things in our systems are constantly changing and shifting. Even that harmless organic coloring can be oxidized into a different form.
I do agree that there is no such thing as bad nitrate.
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Seminoles76
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I really think all the scientific terms you throw around are fantastic. Really what the new reefer who is reading this thread needs to understand is that they should balance input with export by whichever means they choose to keep nitrate at a level in which the inhabitants they keep are happy and healthy. Be it skimmer, pellets, zeovit, carbon dosing, etc. Are nitrates bad? Maybe they are for a newly established tank with no coral when the level is 80. Maybe 80 isn’t bad at all on an established tank that is 5 years old.
I’m still trying to figure out how my oversized skimmer is maintaining No3 at 5!
Belgian Anthias
Valuable Member
An oversized skimmer will not be able to remove more TOC as a normal sized skimmer is able to do! Just a waist of money. One can only remove what is removable.
The skimmer limits the availability of building materials in a way the system has found its balance at a nitrate level of 5. Lowering the skimming rate will change the nitrate level as may the feeding rate or changes in the recycling and remineralisation rate, nitrification - and denitrification rates.
A skimmer only removes building materials called waist selectively, the removal rate is not known.
Why the nitrate level is stable at 5 in a well lit aquarium and the nitrogen is not used up by photo-autotrophs?
Before starting up a life support system the new reefer should know how he intents to keep the inhabitants happy for a normal life time and must be aware of the problems which can cross the path to success . Choices have to be made before starting up. To make choices one must be informed correctly. The best and or good way is not always in line with commercial interests. The way a closed live support system is managed matters for the inhabitants and for the reefer. Why and how does matter. Be it a biofilter, skimmer, pellets, zeovit, carbon dosing, etc. matters because the habitant normal live depends on it including the reefers peace of mind. For managing a closed system all the mentioned and not mentioned methods have caveats inherent to the system and used method, have differences in reliability, stability, controllability and management. Raising a scrimp from larvae to adult for consumption needs an other approach as trying to keep a scrimp for its normal live time, which may take years to come. Keeping only fish or in combination with corals? In a high nutrient import system or a low nutrient import system?
When problems occur other choices have to be made, if not prepared it will be to late. For to make choices one must know why and how? Emptying the wallet does not provide the stability for the residents one has the responsibility for.
New reefers are coming home with a bottle. A few days after adding the bottle they come home with there first fish or coral. They are told all what it needs is in the bottle. No questions asked. Why bother about proper and responsible system management?
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Subsea
5000 Club Member
So I'll keep this short because I want you to drive this conversation and I have a lot to earn myself. I once took a class at the "Old School of Reefing" that said the correct answer is that all and any Nitrates are bad. But now the "NEW School of Reefing" and especially sps keeping says some is good. How much and why is what i would like to discuss. So my question is the following:
Do you believe Nitrates are actually a good thing and if so how much and why?
Image via @Ryan Rioux
I run a 25 year mature mixed reef. I have unopened test kits that are brown so I don’t test much. My biofiltration is mature enough that I frag coral for nutrient export when the tank gets crowded. Until then, complex food webs process nutrients, organic & inorganic and grow the tank, which is nutrient recycling. Nutrients come in complex flavors. Inorganic nitrogen & inorganic phosphate command much attention in forum discussions. Inorganic nutrients are the tip of the iceberg. Total organic carbon and dissolved organic carbon are much more complex. Photosynthetic activity produces DOC. DOC compounds are complex and approach a million.
For things to grow on a carbon based planet requires other nutrients to complete carbon. The Redfield Ratio describes that relationship for phytoplankton as 116:16:1 of C:N
.Generally speaking macro combines in this ratio of 560:30:1 of C:N
Of course we need nitrogen. I put it in my land garden twice a year. I fertilize my tank everyday. I feed it both fresh fish protein and carbon dioxide. Articles on Advanced Aquaria has a 6 part series on coral nutrition written by @Dana Riddle. My favorite quote starts the series, “Photosynthesis couples the inorganic world with the organic world”.
Oh what a complex soup we have. One week ago, the Friday video release from BRS TV was on coral nutrition. Randy referenced Dana Riddle articles.
Of special interest to me was the agreement between BRS, WWC & Triton Method technicians that
“New tanks operate differently than mature tank”.
I think I already knew that, but it was good to hear. After almost 50 yrs of reefing, we have a good advocate to test out reefkeeping things.
Kudos to BRS TV.
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Seminoles76
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I originally responded to you because you said you didn’t believe an oversized skimmer would be able to manage a heavy in/heavy out system. So I asked you how is it so that my system has maintained No3 at 5 over the course of a year. In your last response you state that it’s because the system has found its equilibrium. So, I guess it’s fair to say that you do believe a skimmer alone can handle a heavy in/heavy out system.
I do believe new reefers should be informed as possible and not based solely on commercial interests.....and this is the reason I love R2R. In no way am I recommending new reefers buy an over sized skimmer....just my way of controlling nutrients as I can employ that method along with bare bottom and I never have to worry about refugiums, carbon dosing, etc. You say in several different posts you don’t believe in skimmers and biopellets and that new reefers shouldn’t be informed by commercial interests alone. My reply to that is they don’t have to look at commercial advertising. Just look at some of the most amazing tanks across the world who are employing those methods as a means to the end state of a thriving reef. But for you to say you don’t believe in skimmers or biopellets is by no means good alternative advice to commercial advertising.
As for bottled bacteria....the reviews at Bulk Reef are pretty darn good on Dr Tim’s
I do believe new reefers should be informed as possible and not based solely on commercial interests.....and this is the reason I love R2R. In no way am I recommending new reefers buy an over sized skimmer....just my way of controlling nutrients as I can employ that method along with bare bottom and I never have to worry about refugiums, carbon dosing, etc. You say in several different posts you don’t believe in skimmers and biopellets and that new reefers shouldn’t be informed by commercial interests alone. My reply to that is they don’t have to look at commercial advertising. Just look at some of the most amazing tanks across the world who are employing those methods as a means to the end state of a thriving reef. But for you to say you don’t believe in skimmers or biopellets is by no means good alternative advice to commercial advertising.
As for bottled bacteria....the reviews at Bulk Reef are pretty darn good on Dr Tim’s
Subsea
5000 Club Member
Because I am an avid garner, I will answer in general at first. To grow desirables in my garden, I remove the undesirables to give desirables the upper hand. Because this is a nitrogen nutrient thread, I reference a current thread I started today. For whatever reason, we are synchronized.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-remove-nuisance-epilates-on-macro-surfaces.549367/
I have been skimmerless for 35 years. I have little need to remove free swimming bacteria. Bacteria move carbon up the food chain.
Subsea
5000 Club Member
More biology less technology is my mantra. While I will never be tank of the month, I like my old school tank. It is an expression of “Elegance in Simplicity”. This is a good thread topic.
Dirty glass and reduced light because tank is in middle of dark cycle. I just wanted a picture.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/25-year-old-75g-jaubert-plenum-on-top-with-30g-ecosystem-mud-macro.421526/
Dirty glass and reduced light because tank is in middle of dark cycle. I just wanted a picture.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/25-year-old-75g-jaubert-plenum-on-top-with-30g-ecosystem-mud-macro.421526/
Subsea
5000 Club Member
@vlangel
I like natural reefkeepers. Dawn, thanks for pragmatic analysis. With > 20 yrs reef technician experience she knows a thing or three.
Bioindicators in tank determine how to operate tank. John Tullock’s wrote “The Natural Reef Aquarium” said it this way,
Less Technology / More Biology
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JOKER
2500 Club Member
Honestly when I quit testing nitrate, and phosphate weekly, stopped doing large water changes , my tank started looking better. I tested PO4 the other day on a friends request since my coral had colored back up since I stopped all the maintenance. It was at .06 with hanna, I have no idea what NO3 is ATM, but I am not really worried unless coral start looking bad. I think my tank looks so much better now. I clean glass every 2 days, have an AWC that I usually setup for 2 gallons a day. I run an algae turf scrubber that with live rock, marine pure, skimmer, filter sock, and remote deep sand bed in sump keeps it pretty simple for me. I mix saltwater once a month or so, clean scrubber, skimmer, and change filter socks when needed. I find that I spend more time enjoying the tank than maintaining it now.
Subsea
5000 Club Member
Interesting topic. Having been in this hobby since the late 80's I have seen all sorts of ideas and theories.
I had a 5 gal cube in college with a nem and a clown. I topped off with water from the faucet. I only fed flake food. I never did water changes. The tank was in a western faced window and had a little fluorescent tube light on it. By today's standards, I should not have been able to keep the nem and clown alive for 3 years. I actually gave both to a friend when I graduated.
I have been seriously keeping reefs now for the last 20 plus years with larger and larger systems. I now have a 180 mixed reef and a 150 corner mixed reef running. I have chased numbers. I have tried to attain that magic level where everything grows like weeds and the colors are so intense that those who see it need sunglasses..... Of course, like many I am still in search of that perfect system / setup.
As someone who replied before, you can look at your tank and see if there is something off. I guess I am old school as well. I still test on occasion. I tweak dosing settings. I do little things here and there. You can honestly look at your tank and see if there is something off or if something needs attention. The real challenge for me is not to immediately react to something minor or even a false indicator or a slightly off test. When I started keeping tanks, I was told, let the tank find its "balance" whatever that is. I guess, little inputs as possible and where it can sustain and grow. Of course, I often forget this advice. I then chase something, for some reason. Maybe I read it in a magazine or on-line, or perhaps someone mentioned it. I then end up throwing things way off and after weeks or months of frustration, I remember to just let things settle to its "balanced" state....again...whatever that means. Each tank is different.
I have had tanks that I have ignored, neglected some would say. These tanks have not been the prettiest. They did and continue to grow some amazing corals. My 150 corner falls here. My 180 system is newer, and I spend a lot of time managing that tank. I worked to get to the magic zero / zero parameters for Nitrates and Phosphates. I had BioPellets at one time. I have used different skimmers. I have even started and am using an algae scrubber. As I got closer to the zero / zero… and the longer I stayed there I noticed my corals were less healthy and I had more issues. I suffered a multi-year outbreak of Dinoflagellates. I tried everything under the sun to get rid of them. The strain was Ostreopsis by the way. They decimated my corals, my fish and they nearly forced me to just quit. The fun of the tank had been replaced with complete frustration.
I then read about a theory out of Germany a couple of years ago. No I don’t read German. I found it in English. The theory was that dirty water was the way to go. Dirty water in the context against a zero / zero parameter. Meaning, let the nitrates and phosphates rise… and in doing so let other bacteria and algae grow… which would bring micro-fauna to compete with the Dinos. I had nothing to lose. The suggestions was to feed more. Feed a lot. I have been doing that now for a couple of years now. The Dinos have faded away. I have algae that grows but I can keep in check. I have cyano that appears on occasion but will fade out. I have pods growing like crazy… My green mandarin is happy as a pig in… My other fish and corals are all happy and growing. Are they growing fast, yes and no. Some are…. Some not so much. I spend less time chasing perfection and more time enjoying.
I run my Nitrates probably around 30 ppm and my Phosphates around .05 ppm. I still run an algae scrubber… which grows all sorts of nasty stuff. I clean it regularly…. But not too often. Maybe every 6 weeks or so. I run a big skimmer that pulls a lot of nasty stuff out almost daily. Instead of chasing numbers… I strive now for stability. I try to keep temps +/- 1 degree. Somewhat hard today with the outside temps of -21 below with -45 windchill. (I hate winter!) I keep my PH as steady as I can, but don’t chase a number. I keep Alkalinity at 7.5 and Calcium at 425 with Magnesium at ~1400. I keep my salinity at 1.025. I use RODI for topoff and I use Reef Crystals for salt. I run a lot of flow with as much randomness as I can get. I run Gen 3 Radions. I dose trace and aminos in small, regular amounts.
I guess I am rambling a bit. For me, the temptation to chase perfection has created a lot of past problems. I now try to keep that sage advice from early on, find the tanks “balance”. I now try to maintain good numbers but more importantly stability. It seems to be working for me. That includes higher levels of nutrients. Each tank is different but for me, this is the approach that seems to be best.
@Dans reef
This is the most wisdom I have read on one post in 20 yrs of hobby websites. Kudos to you. It took me 48 years of reefkeeping experience, a Marine Engineering degree and the highest certification for Municipal Waste Water Treatment offered to understand & experience this wisdom.
At the heart of this discussion is a reliance on natural food webs to manage carbon movement up thru the food chain. At my level of involvement in this hobby, I embrace high nutrient lagoon systems with diverse filter feeders and a new found interest in NPS. My biggest newest transitions was using cryptic refugium and replacing 25 year mature Jaubert Plenum with reverse flow under gravel filter. Thank you @Paul B, you are my hero.
The Plenum modification was done two weeks ago, followed by two back to back ChemiClean treatments which ended one week ago. Lights on for < 2 hrs.
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I've had nitrates above 80 ppm and SPS and LPS were very happy. I now keep my nitrates around 10-20 ppm, which allows me to also have a higher Alk around 10 dkh. I think corals are fine with high nitrates; however, they don't like phosphates which should be monitored more closely and kept low IMO.
JOKER
2500 Club Member
As stated, I really think stability is key in any reef. The more stable the tank is the more healthy the inhabitants are. Every time I chase a number I find trouble. Slow and steady is the best way to go, especially with SPS.@Dans reef
This is the most wisdom I have read on one post in 20 yrs of hobby websites. Kudos to you. It took me 48 years of reefkeeping experience, a Marine Engineering degree and the highest certification for Municipal Waste Water Treatment offered to understand & experience this wisdom.
At the heart of this discussion is a reliance on natural food webs to manage carbon movement up thru the food chain. At my level of involvement in this hobby, I embrace high nutrient lagoon systems with diverse filter feeders and a new found interest in NPS. My biggest newest transitions was using cryptic refugium and replacing 25 year mature Jaubert Plenum with reverse flow under gravel filter. Thank you @Paul B, you are my hero.
The Plenum modification was done two weeks ago, followed by two back to back ChemiClean treatments which ended one week ago. Lights on for < 2 hrs.
Belgian Anthias
Valuable Member
How much is LOW?
Recent research (2016) about the coral holoboint from different sources showed increased nitrogen availability lowers the calcification rate but increases symbiont activities and increases photosynthesis . Increased P availability in combination with sufficient CO3 ( the limiting factor) increases calcification and does not influence symbiont activities much.
Photo-synthesis is highly dependable of nitrogen availability.
Increased nitrogen availability increases P take up. P starvation at high demand is one of the reasons of coral bleaching. During such research the situation in the coral holoboint is manipulated. The coral holoboint is able to regulate and adjust the nitrogen supply as required ( within certain limits) even may fix nitrogen when the supply is insufficient.
P is used as necessary in the ratio needed and may be the limiting factor if limited available. P is provided by dissimulation and remineralisation within the holoboint but is of coarse influenced by the availability in the water column.
Maintaining measurable levels of P seems to be the best option when a lot of nitrogen is cycled daily.
One has also to take in account what reefers want to see. Who wants brownish corals!? A factor not included in the research about coral holoboint .
P availability is very important for nitrogen management.
Is nitrogen bad? Certainly when there is not enough! I also think corals are fine with high nitrates. Delbeek&Sprung advised 10ppm (Delbeek, J. Charles, en Julian Sprung. The Reef Aquarium, Volume Three. Volume Three. Coconut Grove, Fla.: Ricordea Pub., 2005.) When BADES bio-filters are used for managing the nitrogen content in a high nutrient input system it is adviced the nitrate level is kept between 2 and 4 ppm NO3 and P +- 0.05 ppm.
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