Nutrient Imbalance - High Nitrates undetectable phos!! Advice?

[joelat]

Hi All,

Looking for some advice on this issue if possible, Over the past 2 months my Nitrates have gone up as high as 90. I have tried a few things to counter this, Water changes, New filter floss media and Nopox.

I have managed to get them down to 77 on the last test. Which as much as my softies like dirtier water, this is still high.

I have not really ran Nopox through a proper course as such because well as my nitrates being so high my phosphate is showing consistently as 0.0 on the spin test. So I don't want to keep bringing it down further with Nopox. The course of action I am currently taking is phosphate dosing until I Get a detectable reading and adding a roller mat in my sump to more efficiently remove nitrates.

Is there anything obvious im missing or could try alongside this. The softies don't mind these conditions but anything SPS is a struggle with such low phos and high nitrates and id be keen to keep a mixed reef.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Pardon me if you've already done these things...

Start by doing large water changes to bring down the nitrates to a manageable level... say maybe 25 ppm. So, by large I mean 50%... carefully. For example, if you do a 50% water change with new salt water mixed with RODI, your levels will drop from 50 t0 25 ppm. Another would drop it to 12.5 ppm. It won't stay that way though. You should next take some steps to stop the rise.

TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT HOW MUCH YOU FEED. You may find you are feeding way too much. Check things like skimmers to ensure they are working properly.

Make sure you have a good phosphate test kit. Phosphates are acceptable at levels below 0.1 ppm. If you have a kit that doesn't have a resolution lower than that, it will read 0 when you really have adequate phosphate levels.

If phosphates are indeed 0, dose some. There are lots of threads about how to do that here.

Once phosphates are detectable on a proper test kit, add a lighted Cheato fuge, an Algae Turf Scrubber, or if you have a skimmer, start carbon dosing. Again, there are lots of threads about that here. All of these methods will bind or export nitrate and phosphate to keep them from rising... but... they bind or export a lot more nitrate than phosphate.

These are not overnight fixes. Patience, and more big water changes may be required.

 

[Spare time]

The aquaspin is terrible for testing phosphate with an error range of 0.2ppm.

https://www.apifishcare.com/pdfs/AQUASPIN%20MANUAL_1615904482.pdf

 

[joelat]

Pardon me if you've already done these things...

Start by doing large water changes to bring down the nitrates to a manageable level... say maybe 25 ppm. So, by large I mean 50%... carefully. For example, if you do a 50% water change with new salt water mixed with RODI, your levels will drop from 50 t0 25 ppm. Another would drop it to 12.5 ppm. It won't stay that way though. You should next take some steps to stop the rise.

TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT HOW MUCH YOU FEED. You may find you are feeding way too much. Check things like skimmers to ensure they are working properly.

Make sure you have a good phosphate test kit. Phosphates are acceptable at levels below 0.1 ppm. If you have a kit that doesn't have a resolution lower than that, it will read 0 when you really have adequate phosphate levels.

If phosphates are indeed 0, dose some. There are lots of threads about how to do that here.

Once phosphates are detectable on a proper test kit, add a lighted Cheato fuge, an Algae Turf Scrubber, or if you have a skimmer, start carbon dosing. Again, there are lots of threads about that here. All of these methods will bind or export nitrate and phosphate to keep them from rising... but... they bind or export a lot more nitrate than phosphate.

These are not overnight fixes. Patience, and more big water changes may be required.

I will start by doing this, I will try and do 25-50% water change, I just need some more barrels to do this first.

If I was to introduce a roller mat, would this not deem a cheato fuge pointless as it is cleaning the nitrates etc from the water before they reach the fuge?

I was looking at adding a fuge or scrubber but I was looking at whichever was the best to add as a DIY to an existing sump.

Also think I will get myself a ULR hanna for phosphate if they are more acc than Spintest?

 

[crabgrass]

The nitrates are in the water (not just the big chucks of stuff your roller/filter sock will catch. So Chaeto can pull some of it out.

As others said though, you probably need phosphates for the Fuge to work at optimal capacity or NOPOX. There is a synergistic relationship between N and P and right now that ratio is out of whack. Mine is too, and it’s a balancing at. Once you can get P up though (and implement one of the options above) you’ll start seeing a downward trend with your N.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I will start by doing this, I will try and do 25-50% water change, I just need some more barrels to do this first.

If I was to introduce a roller mat, would this not deem a cheato fuge pointless as it is cleaning the nitrates etc from the water before they reach the fuge?

I was looking at adding a fuge or scrubber but I was looking at whichever was the best to add as a DIY to an existing sump.

Also think I will get myself a ULR hanna for phosphate if they are more acc than Spintest?

Water changes are a great start. Remember the math. You will drop nitrate levels by the percentage of water you change. The bigger the change, the better... if done carefully. Try to match temp, salinity, and if you have sensitive corals like SPS of even some LPS, alkalinity.

Roller mats capture particulate matter... organic and inorganic. It will result is a small reduction in nitrogen and phosphate input. However, it will also reduce particulate organic carbon that your soft corals use as food. Even then, the vast majority of the nitrogen input is from fish respiration/waste. This is not removed by the roller mat. A fuge or ATS reduces nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate) resulting from fish respiration/waste.
I use a Hanna ULR. It works well and has the needed resolution. The test process can be a little wonky. Be patient when learning the tricks to performing the test. There are a lot of threads here on RC and plenty of You Tubes about performing the test. When you order the test kit, order extra test vials. I replace mine regularly. They're cheap. It wouldn't hurt to order reagent powder too. The kit doesn't come with a lot.

To drill down a little deeper... Do you have a skimmer and, if so, how is it performing?

 

[nereefpat]

The aquaspin is terrible for testing phosphate with an error range of 0.2ppm.

https://www.apifishcare.com/pdfs/AQUASPIN%20MANUAL_1615904482.pdf

Good catch.

A phosphate reading of 0 =/- 0.2 ppm isn't useful in a reef. 0.2 ppm phosphate would be about 10x too high, and anything under 0.2 ppm may read zero.

There is no way I would make phosphate adjustments using this testing method. Ultra Low Range Hanna would be needed.

Looking for some advice on this issue if possible, Over the past 2 months my Nitrates have gone up as high as 90.

90 ppm nitrate can really only be addressed by large water changes. Roller mats and fuges won't touch that high value.

 

[Troylee]

What size tank and how many fish? How big are the fish? Feeding schedule??? Water changes will help as mentioned above but getting po4 up would help them come down.. reef roids or Neo nitro are both good at raising po4 if indeed it’s truly zero or close to it.

 

[joelat]

Water changes are a great start. Remember the math. You will drop nitrate levels by the percentage of water you change. The bigger the change, the better... if done carefully. Try to match temp, salinity, and if you have sensitive corals like SPS of even some LPS, alkalinity.

Roller mats capture particulate matter... organic and inorganic. It will result is a small reduction in nitrogen and phosphate input. However, it will also reduce particulate organic carbon that your soft corals use as food. Even then, the vast majority of the nitrogen input is from fish respiration/waste. This is not removed by the roller mat. A fuge or ATS reduces nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate) resulting from fish respiration/waste.
I use a Hanna ULR. It works well and has the needed resolution. The test process can be a little wonky. Be patient when learning the tricks to performing the test. There are a lot of threads here on RC and plenty of You Tubes about performing the test. When you order the test kit, order extra test vials. I replace mine regularly. They're cheap. It wouldn't hurt to order reagent powder too. The kit doesn't come with a lot.

To drill down a little deeper... Do you have a skimmer and, if so, how is it performing?

So if you was to pick one as an overall solution would you say roller mats or a refugium would be more effective?

Yes I have heard this, I have heard you have to be very quick with the test otherwise it gives you a different result?

I am going to get another 4 or 5 barrels and get my RO working round the clock to get some salt mix ready.

 

[joelat]

Good catch.

A phosphate reading of 0 =/- 0.2 ppm isn't useful in a reef. 0.2 ppm phosphate would be about 10x too high, and anything under 0.2 ppm may read zero.

There is no way I would make phosphate adjustments using this testing method. Ultra Low Range Hanna would be needed.


90 ppm nitrate can really only be addressed by large water changes. Roller mats and fuges won't touch that high value.

I have checked it against the salifert kit but if im honest they art really any good for phos. The colour you are looking to see for a good test is too similar for a 0 reading. I am ordering a ULR Hanna to make matters easier.

 

[officialreefbros]

I had the same issue! My nitrates stayed above 50 and my phos was either 0 or 0.01. It caused me a huge outbreak of cyano. I tried dosing neophos and using chemeclean for a while and wasn't having the best luck. What finally kicked it for me was feeding a lot of reefroids!

 

[joelat]

What size tank and how many fish? How big are the fish? Feeding schedule??? Water changes will help as mentioned above but getting po4 up would help them come down.. reef roids or Neo nitro are both good at raising po4 if indeed it’s truly zero or close to it.

The Tank is 550 l. I have a pair of clowns, a juvenile regal tang, a yellow mimic & coral beauty. I know the regal is going to grow so I have left it low stocked for some growing room. At some point I may upsize but this is fine for now.

This is also the theory I have been trying to work with that getting the phos up will help the nitrates. I do have reef roids which I have given the tank a few extra servings to try and help bring the phos up. But I think a more accurate phos test is needed to double check this.

 

[Troylee]

The Tank is 550 l. I have a pair of clowns, a juvenile regal tang, a yellow mimic & coral beauty. I know the regal is going to grow so I have left it low stocked for some growing room. At some point I may upsize but this is fine for now.

This is also the theory I have been trying to work with that getting the phos up will help the nitrates. I do have reef roids which I have given the tank a few extra servings to try and help bring the phos up. But I think a more accurate phos test is needed to double check this.

Just a little tip when you get the Hannah checker! Leave it on a table and don’t hold it while testing or you’ll get whacky readings.. place on table with sample vial and then press the button when it says insert c2 put the test vial in and hold the button till the counter starts to count down from the 3 minutes… nobody ever tells you this and I always held it and had readings all over the place back to back lol… flat on a table and it’s within .02 when testing the same sample over over.. btw nice size tank! I was thinking over populated but you’re not even close lol… for your no3 problems anyways… reed roids do the trick for me to keep my po4 up as it’s always bottomed out running zeovit.

 

[joelat]

Just a little tip when you get the Hannah checker! Leave it on a table and don’t hold it while testing or you’ll get whacky readings.. place on table with sample vial and then press the button when it says insert c2 put the test vial in and hold the button till the counter starts to count down from the 3 minutes… nobody ever tells you this and I always held it and had readings all over the place back to back lol… flat on a table and it’s within .02 when testing the same sample over over.. btw nice size tank! I was thinking over populated but you’re not even close lol… for your no3 problems anyways… reed roids do the trick for me to keep my po4 up as it’s always bottomed out running zeovit.

Thanks , I will bear that in mind!

Will loading the Reefroids in also raise the Nitrates though?

 

[F4u-SuperCorsair]

I'm going with making sure your test kits are reading right before doing anything. There's a big gap between the nitrates and phosphates.

 

[ReefGeezer]

So if you was to pick one as an overall solution would you say roller mats or a refugium would be more effective?

If limited to the above choices, I would choose a lighted refugium. A Cheato reactor or an algae turf scrubber will work also if you are a gadget guy. I'm not a big fan of a roller mat for nutrient control. It will keep the water column clearer but I think it removes a needed food source while not efficiently addressing the primary cause of nitrogen input... fish respiration/waste.

Besides what has been discussed, there are all kinds of ways to skin this cat. Here are a few...

Adding things that house bacteria that bind nitrogen and phosphate in its biomass can help. This is not the nytrifying/denitrfying bacteria from your initial cycle. It is different. This is one of things that real live rock and sand from the ocean brings to the table. In addition, the other things that grow in and on the live rock & sand will also bind nitrogen and phosphate as they grow.

Same goes for corals. They do not add to the bioload. They actually reduce it. So add away. They bind quite a bit of nutrients when they grow. Faster growing ones work best.

Once you have established a known/desirable phosphate level and have a decent skimmer, carbon dosing (NoPox) will work AND provide a food source for you corals.

Dosing live phytoplankton can certainly help. Care must be taken though, and a good skimmer is a must.

Just in case... Something has been said about an optimal ratio of nitrogen to phosphate. I am not a believer. There should be more nitrogen than phosphate because more will is almost used by all of the biological processes. I think as long as both are present, the processes will use what they need. Be advised though, when nitrogen or phosphate are missing, most biological processes stop. Carbon should be included in that group also, but testing is almost impossible so, just remember to feed the fish.

Yes I have heard this, I have heard you have to be very quick with the test otherwise it gives you a different result?

I am going to get another 4 or 5 barrels and get my RO working round the clock to get some salt mix ready.

It is not that hard. Just prep everything before starting the test. Open the reagent packet and crease it to form a spout to pour the powder into the vial easily and make sure the vial is clean, filled, and dry. Having a two minute timer is a good idea too. It is also a good idea to insert the vial into the tester the same way every time. I use the little 10 ml label at the top. It always faces me when inserted into the tester.

 

[joelat]

I'm going with making sure your test kits are reading right before doing anything. There's a big gap between the nitrates and phosphates.

The nitrates is definitely right, this has been cross checked across multiple tests.

I have only tested phos on spin test and with drop tests (Salifert & Api) Both showing 0.0 but it iOS very difficult to distinguish slight colour on these tests at lower levels.

Hopefully the hanna checker will clear the error margin up for this.

 

[joelat]

If limited to the above choices, I would choose a lighted refugium. A Cheato reactor or an algae turf scrubber will work also if you are a gadget guy. I'm not a big fan of a roller mat for nutrient control. It will keep the water column clearer but I think it removes a needed food source while not efficiently addressing the primary cause of nitrogen input... fish respiration/waste.

Besides what has been discussed, there are all kinds of ways to skin this cat. Here are a few...

Adding things that house bacteria that bind nitrogen and phosphate in its biomass can help. This is not the nytrifying/denitrfying bacteria from your initial cycle. It is different. This is one of things that real live rock and sand from the ocean brings to the table. In addition, the other things that grow in and on the live rock & sand will also bind nitrogen and phosphate as they grow.

Same goes for corals. They do not add to the bioload. They actually reduce it. So add away. They bind quite a bit of nutrients when they grow. Faster growing ones work best.

Once you have established a known/desirable phosphate level and have a decent skimmer, carbon dosing (NoPox) will work AND provide a food source for you corals.

Dosing live phytoplankton can certainly help. Care must be taken though, and a good skimmer is a must.

Just in case... Something has been said about an optimal ratio of nitrogen to phosphate. I am not a believer. There should be more nitrogen than phosphate because more will is almost used by all of the biological processes. I think as long as both are present, the processes will use what they need. Be advised though, when nitrogen or phosphate are missing, most biological processes stop. Carbon should be included in that group also, but testing is almost impossible so, just remember to feed the fish.

It is not that hard. Just prep everything before starting the test. Open the reagent packet and crease it to form a spout to pour the powder into the vial easily and make sure the vial is clean, filled, and dry. Having a two minute timer is a good idea too. It is also a good idea to insert the vial into the tester the same way every time. I use the little 10 ml label at the top. It always faces me when inserted into the tester.

I have a reactor that I have Rowaphos in, Its been turned off for a while though because of the low phosphate level I have naturally not had to run it. - Could this be converted to house cheato etc?

It makes perfect sense in what you are saying about the food source as a lot of my corals absolutely love the water parameters at the moment and are growing like I have never seen, However SPS stuff Montipora etc has not been doing so great. Not sure if that is down to the nitrate or the phos - or maybe a combination.

Is it a tricky job to add a refugium to a current sump set up - would it need to be reworked or can it just be placed in situe?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

With high nitrate and undetectable phosphate, I recommend dosing phosphate. it is cheap and easy.

Get food grade sodium phosphate (any food grade form) from Amazon. Many folks use the Loudwolf brand for many chemicals (see link below).

Then use this calculator and the entry for phosphate from potassium phosphate (it is close enough):

James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator

 

[Create New]

With high nitrate and undetectable phosphate, I recommend dosing phosphate. it is cheap and easy.

Get food grade sodium phosphate (any food grade form) from Amazon. Many folks use the Loudwolf brand for many chemicals (see link below).

Hey mate, sorry to bother you but would this work?