Old Ways vs New Ways of Reefing

[Paul B]

I never started a tank using new ways but when I started my still running tank in 1971, I SCUBA dove for my rocks in Hawaii and the Caribbean and they wouldn't let you on a plane with all that stinking, smelly wet rock so I bleached it in my hotel room. So it was basically dead.

But I collected NSW near the Brooklyn Bridge. (Maybe not the best water)


I collected live rock (and live asphalt) at boat ramps in the Long Island Sound.

I still try to use NSW as much as I can and I still collect amphipods in the Sound and throw in those rocks mainly for the bacteria. I also dump in mud from a muddy beach when I can.



I never bought a Pod or bacteria in a bottle (whatever that is) because I don't believe in it.
The world is full of bacteria and I feel it is like buying a bottle of air.

No chemicals either.

I also used to add garden soil for bacteria but I didn't invent that. It was Robert Straughn, the Father of salt water fish keeping.

In the last 45 or so years I have had no problems, no diseases and most of my fish are spawning, even the 33 year olds. I also don't have to medicate or quarantine because of the bacteria in the rock and live or fresh food I feed.

Of course I did inadvertently collect hitch hikers but none that caused harm and I kind of liked most of them.

I keep many mandarins, ruby red dragonettes and pipefish and they are all spawning and seemingly only dying of old age.

If I had to start a new tank with all dead rock, bottled bacteria and add pods. I would not be in this hobby. Not even for a day.

I assume Pods are expensive and you would need a ton of them for a few mandarins.



Pods are on every live piece of rock or coral you can buy providing you don't dip it which is something I would never do.

 

[GlassMunky]

So my question is for those who’ve done both methods, did you have similar experiences? Was your ocean live rock tank easier to maintain, faster to cycle, need less additives like pods and bacterias, have shorter or no ugly periods, and generally more rewarding? Or do you prefer the new ways over the old ways?

pretty much the exact same experience as you. Old tanks were rock solid and never had issues, started up almost immediately.
Did my last tank setup all dry marco rock and bottled bacteria. after 6 months or so we took the tank down, it was nothing but issues. One plague of nasties followed by another.....

Just reset the tank using all TBS live rock and couldn't be happier, tank was instantly cycled (only ever saw a very slight bump of 0.2 ammonia and 0.02 nitrite for like 1 day and then everything back at zero.
rocks came in with a bunch of cool critters, which i really enjoy watching and finding new things, which you don't get with dry rock.

The ocean isnt sterile, our tanks shouldn't be either. I think too many people, myself included, got hung up on "NO hitchhikers" cause some bad thing COULD happen, not realizing that they could still happen and possibly be worse the other way...

having done both ways, ill never go back to dry rock.
Ill just deal with any issues as they arrive if they arrive. but i think a few random gorilla crabs or a mantis shrimps are much easier to deal with than months of an unbalanced tank.

 

[GARRIGA]

Perhaps best of both worlds. Seems impossible to create negative space gluing live rock between scraping enough life off to have a hold fast along with time limit that rock can be out of water before it becomes dead rock

I’m thinking of just adding live rubble as a means of inoculating the main display with the bacterial diversity bottled solutions don’t have. Can be hidden or tucked away or completely outside the display. Literally break apart some real rock and perhaps transport what you can or frag that rock to transport sponges and other nice to have along with better inspection of what it might have not wanted. Hard for a mantis to hide when you just put chisel to their existing hide.

 

[GlassMunky]

Perhaps best of both worlds. Seems impossible to create negative space gluing live rock between scraping enough life off to have a hold fast along with time limit that rock can be out of water before it becomes dead rock

I’m thinking of just adding live rubble as a means of inoculating the main display with the bacterial diversity bottled solutions don’t have. Can be hidden or tucked away or completely outside the display. Literally break apart some real rock and perhaps transport what you can or frag that rock to transport sponges and other nice to have along with better inspection of what it might have not wanted. Hard for a mantis to hide when you just put chisel to their existing hide.

its not impossible, it just takes more time as you have to go slower as you have to attach everything still wet and in water. so maybe the aquascape takes a few days or a week vs done in a day. but 100% doable.

 

[GlassMunky]

Perhaps best of both worlds. Seems impossible to create negative space gluing live rock between scraping enough life off to have a hold fast along with time limit that rock can be out of water before it becomes dead rock

I’m thinking of just adding live rubble as a means of inoculating the main display with the bacterial diversity bottled solutions don’t have. Can be hidden or tucked away or completely outside the display. Literally break apart some real rock and perhaps transport what you can or frag that rock to transport sponges and other nice to have along with better inspection of what it might have not wanted. Hard for a mantis to hide when you just put chisel to their existing hide.

adding just rubble to dry rock will not do ANYWHERE CLOSE to the same effects as actual rocks/sand.

We added like 30 lbs or ocean rock to a 200g tank that was started with dry rock and it did nothing to help battle the uglier or build up a good population.

Just my experience. YMMV

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

pretty much the exact same experience as you. Old tanks were rock solid and never had issues, started up almost immediately.
Did my last tank setup all dry marco rock and bottled bacteria. after 6 months or so we took the tank down, it was nothing but issues. One plague of nasties followed by another.....

Just reset the tank using all TBS live rock and couldn't be happier, tank was instantly cycled (only ever saw a very slight bump of 0.2 ammonia and 0.02 nitrite for like 1 day and then everything back at zero.
rocks came in with a bunch of cool critters, which i really enjoy watching and finding new things, which you don't get with dry rock.

The ocean isnt sterile, our tanks shouldn't be either. I think too many people, myself included, got hung up on "NO hitchhikers" cause some bad thing COULD happen, not realizing that they could still happen and possibly be worse the other way...

having done both ways, ill never go back to dry rock.
Ill just deal with any issues as they arrive if they arrive. but i think a few random gorilla crabs or a mantis shrimps are much easier to deal with than months of an unbalanced tank.

Perfect, thank you!!

 

[GARRIGA]

its not impossible, it just takes more time as you have to go slower as you have to attach everything still wet and in water. so maybe the aquascape takes a few days or a week vs done in a day. but 100% doable.

Would depend on size of hard scape. Was referencing those mountains BRS builds on a table top with pvc outlines. Built in tank would be plausible.

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

I never started a tank using new ways but when I started my still running tank in 1971, I SCUBA dove for my rocks in Hawaii and the Caribbean and they wouldn't let you on a plane with all that stinking, smelly wet rock so I bleached it in my hotel room. So it was basically dead.

But I collected NSW near the Brooklyn Bridge. (Maybe not the best water)


I collected live rock (and live asphalt) at boat ramps in the Long Island Sound.

I still try to use NSW as much as I can and I still collect amphipods in the Sound and throw in those rocks mainly for the bacteria. I also dump in mud from a muddy beach when I can.



I never bought a Pod or bacteria in a bottle (whatever that is) because I don't believe in it.
The world is full of bacteria and I feel it is like buying a bottle of air.

No chemicals either.

I also used to add garden soil for bacteria but I didn't invent that. It was Robert Straughn, the Father of salt water fish keeping.

In the last 45 or so years I have had no problems, no diseases and most of my fish are spawning, even the 33 year olds. I also don't have to medicate or quarantine because of the bacteria in the rock and live or fresh food I feed.

Of course I did inadvertently collect hitch hikers but none that caused harm and I kind of liked most of them.

I keep many mandarins, ruby red dragonettes and pipefish and they are all spawning and seemingly only dying of old age.

If I had to start a new tank with all dead rock, bottled bacteria and add pods. I would not be in this hobby. Not even for a day.

I assume Pods are expensive and you would need a ton of them for a few mandarins.



Pods are on every live piece of rock or coral you can buy providing you don't dip it which is something I would never do.

Thank you! Those are some different methods of collecting rock.

 

[GARRIGA]

adding just rubble to dry rock will not do ANYWHERE CLOSE to the same effects as actual rocks/sand.

We added like 30 lbs or ocean rock to a 200g tank that was started with dry rock and it did nothing to help battle the uglier or build up a good population.

Just my experience. YMMV

But did it reduce the time of uglies? Perhaps not having to wait a year. In the end. Some want their tanks looking a certain way which for most might be impossible with live rock although I’m not opposed to old school rock walls. What I grew up seeing yet find the new negative space appealing because I actually prefer fish and that provides better use of space.

 

[ReefHunter006]

adding just rubble to dry rock will not do ANYWHERE CLOSE to the same effects as actual rocks/sand.

We added like 30 lbs or ocean rock to a 200g tank that was started with dry rock and it did nothing to help battle the uglier or build up a good population.

Just my experience. YMMV

I seem to be having the same problem right now. Ended up being the worst of both worlds.

All the hitchhikers and none of the benefit as the existing biome appears to have just taken over the live rock.

I hope I’m wrong but I’m on month 12 of trying to get acros to grow in this frustrating tank and it’s going no where.

 

[ReefHunter006]

But did it reduce the time of uglies? Perhaps not having to wait a year. In the end. Some want their tanks looking a certain way which for most might be impossible with live rock although I’m not opposed to old school rock walls. What I grew up seeing yet find the new negative space appealing because I actually prefer fish and Thai provides better use of space.

My experience, doing the same, matches his. Not a huge sample size but I’m disappointed with my results.

 

[GlassMunky]

But did it reduce the time of uglies? Perhaps not having to wait a year. In the end. Some want their tanks looking a certain way which for most might be impossible with live rock although I’m not opposed to old school rock walls. What I grew up seeing yet find the new negative space appealing because I actually prefer fish and Thai provides better use of space.

no it did ABSOLUTELY nothing for the uglies. they stayed just as bad as they were. the tank got shut down because they were sooo bad for soo long it was easier to start over.
dry rock SUCKS all around. never again.

 

[GlassMunky]

Would depend on size of hard scape. Was referencing those mountains BRS builds on a table top with pvc outlines. Built in tank would be plausible.

Ive got over 120lbs of live rock im currently working on scaping and glueing, all in the tank..... its gonna take a week or 2 but its doable. basically just gong 1 rock at a time and using super glue and epoxy in the sandwich method (rock-super glue-epoxy-super glue-rock) and then let that piece set and cure and move on to the next.

 

[Sophie"s mom]

Hi everyone! I’m doing some research to support my beliefs and experiences about the new ways of reefing. My question is a little bit more for the old timers like me who’ve done things the old way and new way.

I’ve been reefing for over 25 years and seen many changes over those years. One of the biggest changes I’ve seen is the use of dead rock and bottled bacterias to start tanks. In the old days we used ocean rock and that was pretty much it. No dead rock. No adding pods. No adding bacteria. Etc. Today the focus is avoiding pests and working to be careful about any additions to the tank. The “ugly phase” used to be maybe a week or two then everything balanced out. Today it seems like the first year of owning a tank is working to get to that point of balance. And in my opinion, much more expensive. Constant additions of bottled bacterias, chemicals, and pods is very costly.

Over a year ago, I setup a new tank using the newer methods. I did a negative space aquascape using dead Marco rocks. Did a fishless cycle. Then I introduced QT fish and QT CUC, All corals were dipped in peroxide and Coral Rx. All these preventative measures didn’t seem to help as some nasty periods arose that I never experienced on any of my other tanks. Various bacteria incidents such as cyano, various algaes of all different types, and dreaded dinos. Nutrients also seem to fluctuate more than days past. After a year, the tank is close to being where I want it. But it took over a year.

None of the 3 tanks I setup prior to this one had any of these issues. They were all started with established live rock. Specifically ocean rock. I understand the belief today is to avoid ocean rock as it may have various pests.

So my question is for those who’ve done both methods, did you have similar experiences? Was your ocean live rock tank easier to maintain, faster to cycle, need less additives like pods and bacterias, have shorter or no ugly periods, and generally more rewarding? Or do you prefer the new ways over the old ways?

I also prefer old school. Had a tank 17 years ago. Just set up a 90 g in September. I split the difference. Did half dry and half live on the rock, with live sand. So far so good. I would probably never want to do a tank with all dry, from scratch! My live rock is much better than the dry at this point. But the dry is getting there. Starting to show signs of coralline algae now.

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

I also prefer old school. Had a tank 17 years ago. Just set up a 90 g in September. I split the difference. Did half dry and half live on the rock, with live sand. So far so good. I would probably never want to do a tank with all dry, from scratch! My live rock is much better than the dry at this point. But the dry is getting there. Starting to show signs of coralline algae now.

Thank you! What kind of live rock did you use? Ocean rock?

 

[SPR1968]

Thank you. Curious about what you added or continue to add. Bottled bacterias? Pods? How long were your ugly phases ?

You don’t need to add anything, just the bottled bacteria and then fish and then lightly feed for a few days. Very simple, I added about 30 fish on day 1. That’s it, tank cycled.

I didn’t have any ugly stages, there are ways around it which I documented on my build thread when I set it up around December 2019. Everyone seems to think they must happen, but they don’t and didn’t.

 

[kevgib67]

I have been reefing for over 18 years, first started in the mid nineties. Jumped back in over 2 years ago. Pretty much reefing the same as I did back then. I only use live rock. I had the usual suspects of algae but of short duration and very manageable. No dinos. I never had the nightmare hitchhiker everyone wants to avoid. I do appreciate the beautiful rockscapes people are able to design with dry rock, but not worth the headaches. Can’t really see my boring scape anymore.

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

I have been reefing for over 18 years, first started in the mid nineties. Jumped back in over 2 years ago. Pretty much reefing the same as I did back then. I only use live rock. I had the usual suspects of algae but of short duration and very manageable. No dinos. I never had the nightmare hitchhiker everyone wants to avoid. I do appreciate the beautiful rockscapes people are able to design with dry rock, but not worth the headaches. Can’t really see my boring scape anymore.

Beautiful! Thank you.

 

[Garf]

The very old ways were bleached dead coral skeleton though wasn't it? I joined in 20 years ago with proper live rock (Fiji I think). Now onto dry non porous rock, gets there after a while, it's just not plug n play.

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

The very old ways were bleached dead coral skeleton though wasn't it? I joined in 20 years ago with proper live rock (Fiji I think). Now onto dry non porous rock, gets there after a while, it's just not plug n play.

Yes that was definitely an option vs the mined rock of today.