Old Ways vs New Ways of Reefing

[jackson6745]

-Not a fan of dead rock startup. Did once, and it was the only tank out of my last 6-7 that wasn't thriving from the start. There's something to be said for the amount of bacteria that exists on the surface area of rock that takes time to form, which is why dead rock tanks take more time to thrive.

-Newer lighting. I'm a big fan, but IMO for SPS you need complete coverage which is extremely cost prohibitive. Prices need to come down. Not enough value IMO. I still have MH and T5 on my main display which provides the best value for results these days for higher light tanks.

-Newer flow pumps, love them all. So nice to have these options because I'm not drilling closed loops

-Newer controllers. The functionality is amazing, failure and tank catastrophe is a real possibility. I don't trust APEX, GHL is a PITA to setup, maybe I'll try hydros. I'll probably still use a ranco for temp no matter what.

-One thing that I despise in the newer ways is the use of overly blue led lighting and orange filters as the norm in viewing corals. I walk into shops at times and can't tell what type of SPS that I'm looking at until the whites are brought up. I get it, it looks cool, but not a realistic representation. Not to mention blue corals are completely muted under blue led. With a whiter spectrum there is a wider contrast of colors visible.

-No water change ICP methods. Works for some if they can dial it in. Not saying it's something that I'll never try, but salt is relatively cheap compared to frequent ICP and trace dosing. Easy for me to balance nutrients while doing regular water changes to replace lost trace elements from salt. Until I am blown away by this method to the point where I feel the older way can't compare, I will stick to what I know.

Overall I commend guys for diving into the newer methods. Without you, we would not be moving forward in the hobby. I do feel like older ways are becoming lost in the current info given though. The newer ways are a bit over complicated and a bit of an infomercial for additives, equipment, and testing companies . I'm fortunate to have my perspective being in the hobby since the 90's, watching it all progress. The newer guys should dig back on some of the major topics to see the common denominators. Old tank of the month articles are a great place to start! Happy Reefing!

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

-Not a fan of dead rock startup. Did once, and it was the only tank out of my last 6-7 that wasn't thriving from the start. There's something to be said for the amount of bacteria that exists on the surface area of rock that takes time to form, which is why dead rock tanks take more time to thrive.

-Newer lighting. I'm a big fan, but IMO for SPS you need complete coverage which is extremely cost prohibitive. Prices need to come down. Not enough value IMO. I still have MH and T5 on my main display which provides the best value for results these days for higher light tanks.

-Newer flow pumps, love them all. So nice to have these options because I'm not drilling closed loops

-Newer controllers. The functionality is amazing, failure and tank catastrophe is a real possibility. I don't trust APEX, GHL is a PITA to setup, maybe I'll try hydros. I'll probably still use a ranco for temp no matter what.

-One thing that I despise in the newer ways is the use of overly blue led lighting and orange filters as the norm in viewing corals. I walk into shops at times and can't tell what type of SPS that I'm looking at until the whites are brought up. I get it, it looks cool, but not a realistic representation. Not to mention blue corals are completely muted under blue led. With a whiter spectrum there is a wider contrast of colors visible.

-No water change ICP methods. Works for some if they can dial it in. Not saying it's something that I'll never try, but salt is relatively cheap compared to frequent ICP and trace dosing. Easy for me to balance nutrients while doing regular water changes to replace lost trace elements from salt. Until I am blown away by this method to the point where I feel the older way can't compare, I will stick to what I know.

Overall I commend guys for diving into the newer methods. Without you, we would not be moving forward in the hobby. I do feel like older ways are becoming lost in the current info given though. The newer ways are a bit over complicated and a bit of an infomercial for additives, equipment, and testing companies . I'm fortunate to have my perspective being in the hobby since the 90's, watching it all progress. The newer guys should dig back on some of the major topics to see the common denominators. Old tank of the month articles are a great place to start! Happy Reefing!

Wow great response. I think I agree with every part of this post lol

 

[Sophie"s mom]

Thank you! What kind of live rock did you use? Ocean rock?

A local fish store sells jakarta live rock. It is very good, and readily available

 

[kevgib67]

Beautiful! Thank

Beautiful! Thank you.

I don’t recall seeing a post asking for help with algae for a new tank with only live rock? I may have missed all of them.

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

I don’t recall seeing a post asking for help with algae for a new tank with only live rock? I may have missed all of them.

That’s a very good point.

 

[Garf]

That’s a very good point.

I think that's where the drive for zero N and P came from, when Jobe was a boy.

 

[crazyfishmom]

Hi everyone! I’m doing some research to support my beliefs and experiences about the new ways of reefing. My question is a little bit more for the old timers like me who’ve done things the old way and new way.

I’ve been reefing for over 25 years and seen many changes over those years. One of the biggest changes I’ve seen is the use of dead rock and bottled bacterias to start tanks. In the old days we used ocean rock and that was pretty much it. No dead rock. No adding pods. No adding bacteria. Etc. Today the focus is avoiding pests and working to be careful about any additions to the tank. The “ugly phase” used to be maybe a week or two then everything balanced out. Today it seems like the first year of owning a tank is working to get to that point of balance. And in my opinion, much more expensive. Constant additions of bottled bacterias, chemicals, and pods is very costly.

Over a year ago, I setup a new tank using the newer methods. I did a negative space aquascape using dead Marco rocks. Did a fishless cycle. Then I introduced QT fish and QT CUC, All corals were dipped in peroxide and Coral Rx. All these preventative measures didn’t seem to help as some nasty periods arose that I never experienced on any of my other tanks. Various bacteria incidents such as cyano, various algaes of all different types, and dreaded dinos. Nutrients also seem to fluctuate more than days past. After a year, the tank is close to being where I want it. But it took over a year.

None of the 3 tanks I setup prior to this one had any of these issues. They were all started with established live rock. Specifically ocean rock. I understand the belief today is to avoid ocean rock as it may have various pests.

So my question is for those who’ve done both methods, did you have similar experiences? Was your ocean live rock tank easier to maintain, faster to cycle, need less additives like pods and bacterias, have shorter or no ugly periods, and generally more rewarding? Or do you prefer the new ways over the old ways?

I am a newb to reefing and started my first tank with dry rock. Let’s just say “ugh”.

Started my two most recent tanks with rock from the ocean and I am so so happy I did! Primarily did that because I started reading tons of posts from people like yourself who have been doing this a long time. This tank was fully cycled and stable within a week of adding rock. I also added some live ocean sand. There are a couple of hitchhikers that I’m a bit annoyed with. Managed to catch one of the gorilla crabs. The other (at least that I’ve seen) keeps evading me but I’ll get him yet. I did add some pods to increase biodiversity l but didn’t necessarily feel it was necessary just got a good deal on them.

Never going back to dry rock even though the versatility of what one can do with a dry rock aquascape is desirable. Happy coral and fish right off the bat make it a no brainer for me moving forward.

 

[Paul B]

Thank you! Those are some different methods of collecting rock.

It wasn't different. That was the only way to get rock in the early 70s, dead or alive rock.

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

I am a newb to reefing and started my first tank with dry rock. Let’s just say “ugh”.

Started my two most recent tanks with rock from the ocean and I am so so happy I did! Primarily did that because I started reading tons of posts from people like yourself who have been doing this a long time. This tank was fully cycled and stable within a week of adding rock. I also added some live ocean sand. There are a couple of hitchhikers that I’m a bit annoyed with. Managed to catch one of the gorilla crabs. The other (at least that I’ve seen) keeps evading me but I’ll get him yet. I did add some pods to increase biodiversity l but didn’t necessarily feel it was necessary just got a good deal on them.

Never going back to dry rock even though the versatility of what one can do with a dry rock aquascape is desirable. Happy coral and fish right off the bat make it a no brainer for me moving forward.

Thank you, appreciate the feedback!!

 

[Dom]

I can recall being turned on to the hobby 50 years ago. The family attached to the other side of my house was in to saltwater fish. He had a 90 gallon tank with a heater and HOB filter.

I don't know what he was doing or how he was doing it, but the tank THRIVED. He even had Anemones, and I don't think there was anything special about lights back then.

 

[Sump Crab]

I would never start a ta k with dry rock. If dry rock was my only option to start a tank I would leave the hobby. I absolutely detest dry rock lol. For me half the enjoyment of the hobby is all the awesome life (yes Hitchhiker's) that comes in from the ocean. I love just about all of them. I only remove things that are predatory such as gorilla crabs, fireworms, and mantis shrimp. I even love vermetid snails! My philosophy: if you have all the "pests" then a single one cannot take over your tank. The plagues of "pests" we see taking over tanks is almost always in a tank that's trying to run "sterile". In those tanks just one "pest" has zero competition and runs rampant.

Some of my vermetid shells are so old they have become part of the rocks lol

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

I would never start a ta k with dry rock. If dry rock was my only option to start a tank I would leave the hobby. I absolutely detest dry rock lol. For me half the enjoyment of the hobby is all the awesome life (yes Hitchhiker's) that comes in from the ocean. I love just about all of them. I only remove things that are predatory such as gorilla crabs, fireworms, and mantis shrimp. I even love vermetid snails! My philosophy: if you have all the "pests" then and single one cannot take over your tank. The plagues of "pests" we see taking over tanks is almost always in a tank that's trying to run "sterile". In those tanks just one "pest" has zero competition and runs rampant.

Some of my vermetid shells are so old they have become part of the rocks lol

Thank you, great info!

 

[blecki]

I started the current tank with 100lbs of dry rock and 75ish lbs of live established rock from my old system. Most of which started out dry 5 to 10 years ago. It takes a little longer but in a few years your dry rock will be indistinquishable from the rock that started live. As long as dry rock is a fraction of the price of real live rock that's what people will use...

But don't waste money on 'live rock' from the LFS. What they are selling is just wet rock. Live rock has garbage on it. It's not just dry rock that happens to be kept in a bin of water with 0 bioload.

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

I started the current tank with 100lbs of dry rock and 75ish lbs of live established rock from my old system. Most of which started out dry 5 to 10 years ago. It takes a little longer but in a few years your dry rock will be indistinquishable from the rock that started live. As long as dry rock is a fraction of the price of real live rock that's what people will use...

But don't waste money on 'live rock' from the LFS. What they are selling is just wet rock. Live rock has garbage on it. It's not just dry rock that happens to be kept in a bin of water with 0 bioload.

Agreed. Ocean rock is what I would use over LFS rock!

 

[blecki]

If it didn't cost so much I would too. Instead I had to wait 10 years. It's pretty easy to tell which rocks are old and which I got last year still, but in another year or so they'll be indistinguishable.

 

[rtparty]

Thank you! Have you dosed bacteria? Or pods? How have your ugly phases been? Short or non-existent?

I start all my tanks with pellet or flake food and MicroBacter7. I never test ammonia or anything. Just give it 2 weeks before adding some fish.

Early on this tank exploded with uglies but after I added my tang gang they cleaned everything up. I dumped in some Algaebarn pods once. I think 2 bottles of the 5280 IIRC. Likely not enough but I had some live rock in there already.

Then it got super ugly for months on end. I blame the sand for this next part. Why? Because all the uglies were in and on the sand only. Very little made it to the rocks. I added a lot more CUC and a sand sifting goby. It cleared up quickly after that. I’m of the opinion that we aren’t using enough CUC these days in a lot of tanks. The whole 1 snail per gallon rule kind of disappeared. It might be overkill but seemed to work better than the newer “rules” of like 1 snail per 10 gallons.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

I never started a tank using new ways but when I started my still running tank in 1971, I SCUBA dove for my rocks in Hawaii and the Caribbean and they wouldn't let you on a plane with all that stinking, smelly wet rock so I bleached it in my hotel room. So it was basically dead.

But I collected NSW near the Brooklyn Bridge. (Maybe not the best water)


I collected live rock (and live asphalt) at boat ramps in the Long Island Sound.

I still try to use NSW as much as I can and I still collect amphipods in the Sound and throw in those rocks mainly for the bacteria. I also dump in mud from a muddy beach when I can.



I never bought a Pod or bacteria in a bottle (whatever that is) because I don't believe in it.
The world is full of bacteria and I feel it is like buying a bottle of air.

No chemicals either.

I also used to add garden soil for bacteria but I didn't invent that. It was Robert Straughn, the Father of salt water fish keeping.

In the last 45 or so years I have had no problems, no diseases and most of my fish are spawning, even the 33 year olds. I also don't have to medicate or quarantine because of the bacteria in the rock and live or fresh food I feed.

Of course I did inadvertently collect hitch hikers but none that caused harm and I kind of liked most of them.

I keep many mandarins, ruby red dragonettes and pipefish and they are all spawning and seemingly only dying of old age.

If I had to start a new tank with all dead rock, bottled bacteria and add pods. I would not be in this hobby. Not even for a day.

I assume Pods are expensive and you would need a ton of them for a few mandarins.



Pods are on every live piece of rock or coral you can buy providing you don't dip it which is something I would never do.

Morning Paul, I have to say I enjoy learning about your tank and experience . You are one great asset to the reefing hobby and help make R2R great. It's always a joy to me.

 

[mfinn]

I started reefing back in the early 80's when under gravel filters and wet/dry filters were the norm.
Towards the middle and the end of the 80's I started seeing rock structures in some tanks and at the 2 stores I had access to.
I don't remember where the rock came from, but it was plentiful.
Move on into the 90's and there seemed like there were many different sources of live rock for multiple locations in the south Pacific.
In the early days of Live Aquaria, they had 5-6 different types of live rock. It wasn't exactly cheap but had great package deals.
Now when you look at the options these days, as far as I can tell there are 2 sources of real ocean rock.
Caribbean and Australian.
Seams to me you have to be fairly well off ( bringing in the big bucks) to afford a large reef tank full of the Australian rock.
That leaves the Caribbean rock.
IMO the shape is terrible. Mostly round boulder type rock.
Back in the day you couldn't give that stuff away.
Now add in the budget minded reefer starting out these days.
Old dead rock can be bought for as little as $1 per lb.
Mined dead rock for $3-$4 per lb.
Caribbean live rock comes in at $6-$9 per lb.
That Australian I see occasionally comes in at about $25 per lb.

I started up a tank 10 years ago with dry store bought mined rock. I hand picked 200lbs out of 3 different stores, used the bottled bacteria.
Even after 2 years I hated the look.
Corals grew, fish thrived, but IMO it just looked not right.
Looked around for good live rock that I liked and couldn't find anything.
I ended up settling for "Real Reef" rock. It's a brand of dry man made rock that's somewhat pre-cycled rock.
Did the bottled bacteria as well on this batch.

 

[PeterErc]

So, I am a dry rock fan.I do use NSW so that may be the difference, I don’t know. I don’t usually have all “ugly” phase so many do, usually.

This last go around things were different and I can see why.

Short of the long is I tore apart a neglected tank. Had 90% of the rock in a bleach bath. Saw some dry rock for sale locally that was a good deal and went for it. Dude said he broke the tank down and bleached the rock. It was nasty covered in algae, aptasia etc.

I used it, dosed lanthanum and bottomed out PO4. Raised NO3, PO4, and tried all the tricks to beat Dino’s. Crud from dry rock resurfaced. Rock was done for.

I was being lazy and tried to hurry up the process.

All dry rock is not the same, treat it accordingly


Removed rock, bleach, acid, bleach, peroxide bath. Added a UV for first time. Rock is fine this go around.

So, it was a couple things that contributed to the ugly phase. *** dup water chemistry and dirty rock.

Clean rock and good water chemistry would have helped as proven.

With all that I still have vermitid snails and aptasia , and hopefully never see that blue encrusting sponge again.

I am not against using LR, I am against paying for it.

Okay, so using the best possible live rock. Putting in a reef system. Covering that best LR in coralline, and coral skeleton, what happens to it. A calcium carbonate rock? I get the bottom is still “open”.

How many new reefers would have a prolonged “ugly” stage using the best live rock not knowing how to keep a system stable.

 

[Katrina71]

Now I'm curious, do any of you dose anything?