Old Ways vs New Ways of Reefing

[Paul B]

You are one great asset to the reefing hobby and help make R2R great. It's always a joy to me.

Thank you Ciclid Dad, I appreciate it.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

no it did ABSOLUTELY nothing for the uglies. they stayed just as bad as they were. the tank got shut down because they were sooo bad for soo long it was easier to start over.
dry rock SUCKS all around. never again.

It was too late at that point.

Achieving succession once populations of undesirable algae is entrenched is possible, but it is a very long process. Those undesirable algae don’t want to give up their market share, and have ways of keeping the other stuff from establishing populations.

But the more desirable algae overall are better at competing once established. But you have to get to the tipping point before that can happen.

The short-cut to getting to the tipping point is to try to wipe out the lower stuff first, and then add a good amount of more desirable stuff. Maybe even do 4-5 days of lights out. That won’t really hurt higher alga, but it can really knock stuff like dinos back and let the other stuff settle in.

 

[AquaLogic]

Hi everyone! I’m doing some research to support my beliefs and experiences about the new ways of reefing. My question is a little bit more for the old timers like me who’ve done things the old way and new way.

I’ve been reefing for over 25 years and seen many changes over those years. One of the biggest changes I’ve seen is the use of dead rock and bottled bacterias to start tanks. In the old days we used ocean rock and that was pretty much it. No dead rock. No adding pods. No adding bacteria. Etc. Today the focus is avoiding pests and working to be careful about any additions to the tank. The “ugly phase” used to be maybe a week or two then everything balanced out. Today it seems like the first year of owning a tank is working to get to that point of balance. And in my opinion, much more expensive. Constant additions of bottled bacterias, chemicals, and pods is very costly.

Over a year ago, I setup a new tank using the newer methods. I did a negative space aquascape using dead Marco rocks. Did a fishless cycle. Then I introduced QT fish and QT CUC, All corals were dipped in peroxide and Coral Rx. All these preventative measures didn’t seem to help as some nasty periods arose that I never experienced on any of my other tanks. Various bacteria incidents such as cyano, various algaes of all different types, and dreaded dinos. Nutrients also seem to fluctuate more than days past. After a year, the tank is close to being where I want it. But it took over a year.

None of the 3 tanks I setup prior to this one had any of these issues. They were all started with established live rock. Specifically ocean rock. I understand the belief today is to avoid ocean rock as it may have various pests.

So my question is for those who’ve done both methods, did you have similar experiences? Was your ocean live rock tank easier to maintain, faster to cycle, need less additives like pods and bacterias, have shorter or no ugly periods, and generally more rewarding? Or do you prefer the new ways over the old ways?

I have done both, and noticed very little difference besides for the time it takes to mature. I think if you're getting major problems with a dry rock start up, there was likely a level of contamination in something somewhere. Dip your dry rock, treat in peroxide or something. There is always the option to cure dry rock in a brute or bin of some sort rather than in your display tank. This is a best of both worlds approach. I personally don't like to deal with the hitch hikers from live rock, but I'm not trying to never stop never stopping in a manic rush to get everything done within two weeks.

I heard somewhere the other day that in Europe the standard cycle time is 4 months. I don't know if it's an American thing or a young person thing (I'm middle aged myself, not one of the old guard and not a young'un) but in our communities there seems to be an attraction to speed. "I added corals within 2 weeks" etc. As if that's an accomplishment and now you've become prime breeding material in your dating pool. I'm not an instant gratification type of person, I like to enjoy the entire process of growing and creating. I personally abhor the idea of trying to shorten the start up time drastically. I don't care for the tiktok youtube culture or setting up a new tank for a month or a year and knocking it down and changing things because I want more views or I just need the dopamine hit of constant manic change. I'm dealing with living creatures. I'm creating a home for them. I don't want to disturb their home just because I'm manic about pumping out reels for the views or to self medicate adhd. That's my grumpy take. It's fun either way so do it however you want to do it. Even if that means rushing. I will say that I see way more posts about tank crashes and, dinos, cyano, algae blooms, black out periods etc. than I saw ten years ago. I see constant threads about die off etc. and I wonder if this comes from the new culture of rushing to have a tank running within a week. I do think you are better off with something like Marco rock if you are using dry, because it was once part of a reef and has that natural porosity. The man made stuff just does not have that, so I'm not into the painted purple junk made our of concrete.

I very much dislike the goofy blue windex look that is the rage right now. I was a diver when I lived nearer to a coast and I prefer the look of shallow reefs in the mid day sun. Nothing achieves this better than halides, but I really like newer LED like the Kessil A500X. It allows me to have a ramp up and ramp down time rather than just blasting my fish with midday sun out of nowhere. I despise now, and always have, T5 lighting. The ocean doesn't look like that. There are shadows all over a natural reef. I'm not trying to create some unnatural showcase where I have even lighting and can grow SPS in every inch of the tank. Even diffuse lighting is not my goal. To me T5 looks incredible unnatural. Dead light. No shimmer. I will never use T5 again, only LED or MH. you don't need total coverage to grow SPS unless you want to grow SPS everywhere in the tank, which I do not.

I dunno, to each their own, have fun how you want to have fun. Just try to respect the lives of the creatures you are keeping.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

-Not a fan of dead rock startup. Did once, and it was the only tank out of my last 6-7 that wasn't thriving from the start. There's something to be said for the amount of bacteria that exists on the surface area of rock that takes time to form, which is why dead rock tanks take more time to thrive.

-Newer lighting. I'm a big fan, but IMO for SPS you need complete coverage which is extremely cost prohibitive. Prices need to come down. Not enough value IMO. I still have MH and T5 on my main display which provides the best value for results these days for higher light tanks.

-Newer flow pumps, love them all. So nice to have these options because I'm not drilling closed loops

-Newer controllers. The functionality is amazing, failure and tank catastrophe is a real possibility. I don't trust APEX, GHL is a PITA to setup, maybe I'll try hydros. I'll probably still use a ranco for temp no matter what.

-One thing that I despise in the newer ways is the use of overly blue led lighting and orange filters as the norm in viewing corals. I walk into shops at times and can't tell what type of SPS that I'm looking at until the whites are brought up. I get it, it looks cool, but not a realistic representation. Not to mention blue corals are completely muted under blue led. With a whiter spectrum there is a wider contrast of colors visible.

-No water change ICP methods. Works for some if they can dial it in. Not saying it's something that I'll never try, but salt is relatively cheap compared to frequent ICP and trace dosing. Easy for me to balance nutrients while doing regular water changes to replace lost trace elements from salt. Until I am blown away by this method to the point where I feel the older way can't compare, I will stick to what I know.

Overall I commend guys for diving into the newer methods. Without you, we would not be moving forward in the hobby. I do feel like older ways are becoming lost in the current info given though. The newer ways are a bit over complicated and a bit of an infomercial for additives, equipment, and testing companies . I'm fortunate to have my perspective being in the hobby since the 90's, watching it all progress. The newer guys should dig back on some of the major topics to see the common denominators. Old tank of the month articles are a great place to start! Happy Reefing!

Great post.

I’m at the point of ditching LEDs. Have a client where the AI LEDs started losing diodes. Was digging around and unearthed their old Current Outer Orbit fixture, and was delighted to see that all the ballasts still worked.

Fired it up and my heart just filled up. It looked like the sun was shining into the tank . The coral wasn’t glowing, but it looked awesome.

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

I have done both, and noticed very little difference besides for the time it takes to mature. I think if you're getting major problems with a dry rock start up, there was likely a level of contamination in something somewhere. Dip your dry rock, treat in peroxide or something. There is always the option to cure dry rock in a brute or bin of some sort rather than in your display tank. This is a best of both worlds approach. I personally don't like to deal with the hitch hikers from live rock, but I'm not trying to never stop never stopping in a manic rush to get everything done within two weeks.

I heard somewhere the other day that in Europe the standard cycle time is 4 months. I don't know if it's an American thing or a young person thing (I'm middle aged myself, not one of the old guard and not a young'un) but in our communities there seems to be an attraction to speed. "I added corals within 2 weeks" etc. As if that's an accomplishment and now you've become prime breeding material in your dating pool. I'm not an instant gratification type of person, I like to enjoy the entire process of growing and creating. I personally abhor the idea of trying to shorten the start up time drastically. I don't care for the tiktok youtube culture or setting up a new tank for a month or a year and knocking it down and changing things because I want more views or I just need the dopamine hit of constant manic change. I'm dealing with living creatures. I'm creating a home for them. I don't want to disturb their home just because I'm manic about pumping out reels for the views or to self medicate adhd. That's my grumpy take. It's fun either way so do it however you want to do it. Even if that means rushing. I will say that I see way more posts about tank crashes and, dinos, cyano, algae blooms, black out periods etc. than I saw ten years ago. I see constant threads about die off etc. and I wonder if this comes from the new culture of rushing to have a tank running within a week. I do think you are better off with something like Marco rock if you are using dry, because it was once part of a reef and has that natural porosity. The man made stuff just does not have that, so I'm not into the painted purple junk made our of concrete.

I very much dislike the goofy blue windex look that is the rage right now. I was a diver when I lived nearer to a coast and I prefer the look of shallow reefs in the mid day sun. Nothing achieves this better than halides, but I really like newer LED like the Kessil A500X. It allows me to have a ramp up and ramp down time rather than just blasting my fish with midday sun out of nowhere. I despise now, and always have, T5 lighting. The ocean doesn't look like that. There are shadows all over a natural reef. I'm not trying to create some unnatural showcase where I have even lighting and can grow SPS in every inch of the tank. Even diffuse lighting is not my goal. To me T5 looks incredible unnatural. Dead light. No shimmer. I will never use T5 again, only LED or MH.

I dunno, to each their own, have fun how you want to have fun. Just try to respect the lives of the creatures you are keeping.

Thank you! FYI in the experience I refer to in my original post, i used 100% Marco rock. Also, it’s not about just time. It’s also about constant costs of seeding dead rock. Pods, bacterias, etc.

 

[Miami Reef]

Is there a balance?

I like to start with dry rock for aquascaping and cost, then seed it with a few lbs of live rock. It’s the perfect balance IMO.

I don’t believe in bottled bacteria and pod additions for increasing biodiversity.

 

[MnFish1]

Hi everyone! I’m doing some research to support my beliefs and experiences about the new ways of reefing. My question is a little bit more for the old timers like me who’ve done things the old way and new way.

Some old-timers double your experiences - so perhaps there was a really old way, a kind of old way and the new way

I’ve been reefing for over 25 years and seen many changes over those years. One of the biggest changes I’ve seen is the use of dead rock and bottled bacterias to start tanks. In the old days we used ocean rock and that was pretty much it. No dead rock. No adding pods. No adding bacteria. Etc. Today the focus is avoiding pests and working to be careful about any additions to the tank. The “ugly phase” used to be maybe a week or two then everything balanced out. Today it seems like the first year of owning a tank is working to get to that point of balance. And in my opinion, much more expensive. Constant additions of bottled bacterias, chemicals, and pods is very costly.

In the old days, people bought dead coral - at huge prices - and put that into their tanks. then adding fish - adding an anemone was a huge 'risk' - and corals were not even there. There were 2 types of live rock - one - direct from Florida, another that had been sitting in an LFS tank for weeks to 'get rid of all the pests'

Over a year ago, I setup a new tank using the newer methods. I did a negative space aquascape using dead Marco rocks. Did a fishless cycle. Then I introduced QT fish and QT CUC, All corals were dipped in peroxide and Coral Rx. All these preventative measures didn’t seem to help as some nasty periods arose that I never experienced on any of my other tanks. Various bacteria incidents such as cyano, various algaes of all different types, and dreaded dinos. Nutrients also seem to fluctuate more than days past. After a year, the tank is close to being where I want it. But it took over a year.

I have used dead rock and bottled bacteria with no ugly phase - however I bought large corals to cover the open spaces. Had no issues

None of the 3 tanks I setup prior to this one had any of these issues. They were all started with established live rock. Specifically ocean rock. I understand the belief today is to avoid ocean rock as it may have various pests.

So my question is for those who’ve done both methods, did you have similar experiences? Was your ocean live rock tank easier to maintain, faster to cycle, need less additives like pods and bacterias, have shorter or no ugly periods, and generally more rewarding? Or do you prefer the new ways over the old ways?

My opinion - dead rock becomes live rock in a couple months. Live rock looses a lot of its benefit in 3 months meaning - no difference overall. i..e.bacteria is bacteria

 

[MnFish1]

Thank you! FYI in the experience I refer to in my original post, i used 100% Marco rock. Also, it’s not about just time. It’s also about constant costs of seeding dead rock. Pods, bacterias, etc.

I have never seeded Pods. And still see no reason to do so

 

[AquaLogic]

Thank you! FYI in the experience I refer to in my original post, i used 100% Marco rock. Also, it’s not about just time. It’s also about constant costs of seeding dead rock. Pods, bacterias, etc.

That's true, but live rock costs more to begin with, especially if you want to have it shipped. You can definitely be successful either way, but I really prefer to avoid hitchhikers. I got a ton of aptaisia once from live rock and I've been leery to use it ever since. I'm planning a new tank right now and I'm going to throw a bunch of Marco rock in a tub and cycle it with bacteria. I may try seeding it by buying a nice small chunk of live rock locally and just scraping off coraline into the bin.

You can also heat treat your Marco rock to kill anything on it, and then give it a good wash first. There are a lot of way to clean dead rock. I don't like using bleach or chemicals personally, but some people do.

 

[MnFish1]

That's true, but live rock costs more to begin with, especially if you want to have it shipped. You can definitely be successful either way, but I really prefer to avoid hitchhikers. I got a ton of aptaisia once from live rock and I've been leery to use it ever since. I'm planning a new tank right now and I'm going to throw a bunch of Marco rock in a tub and cycle it with bacteria. I may try seeding it by buying a nice small chunk of live rock locally and just scraping off coraline into the bin.

You can also heat treat your Marco rock to kill anything on it, and then give it a good wash first. There are a lot of way to clean dead rock. I don't like using bleach or chemicals personally, but some people do.

It makes no sense to 'treat', 'kill' your Marco rock apologies to pblogic - but this is ridiculous advice IMHO

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

That's true, but live rock costs more to begin with, especially if you want to have it shipped. You can definitely be successful either way, but I really prefer to avoid hitchhikers. I got a ton of aptaisia once from live rock and I've been leery to use it ever since. I'm planning a new tank right now and I'm going to throw a bunch of Marco rock in a tub and cycle it with bacteria. I may try seeding it by buying a nice small chunk of live rock locally and just scraping off coraline into the bin.

You can also heat treat your Marco rock to kill anything on it, and then give it a good wash first. There are a lot of way to clean dead rock. I don't like using bleach or chemicals personally, but some people do.

Agreed. FYI, Marco rock many people use are dead, never been used rocks. They don’t have life to kill.

 

[AquaLogic]

It makes no sense to 'treat', 'kill' your Marco rock apologies to pblogic - but this is ridiculous advice IMHO

There's absolutely nothing ridiculous about it, it can become contaminated during many steps of it's harvesting process. It's pulled out of the ground, packaged, shipped all over the place, It's not a sterile product unless Marco rocks is sterilizing it before shipping, but that doesn't mean it's going to reach you sterile, and could be contaminated even from bacteria in the air. Or from the shipping and packing process. It probably doesn't need anything more than a good water cleaning, but being that it's porous, getting it as sterile as possible is a good way to avoid any possible contamination. I'll admit it's an extreme precaution, but the chances of it being uncontaminated are not 100%.

 

[MnFish1]

There's absolutely nothing ridiculous about it, it can become contaminated during many steps of it's harvesting process. It's pulled out of the ground, packaged, shipped all over the place, It's not a sterile product unless Marco rocks is sterilizing it before shipping, but that doesn't mean it's going to reach you sterile, and could be contaminated even from bacteria in the air. Or from the shipping and packing process. It probably doesn't need anything more than a good water cleaning, but being that it's porous, getting it as sterile as possible is a good way to avoid any possible contamination. I'll admit it's an extreme precaution, but the chances of it being uncontaminated are not 100%.

I assume its not sterile - however - I also disagree with those who suggest - putting garden dirt - or any other kind of dirt/mulm/secret formula JMHO

 

[d2mini]

Old school all the way.
I'll still get some weird issues occaisionally, like lately, after starting the tank a year ago with all live rock and sand from TBS, I'm battling some hair algae. I usually don't have that problem but this time I do. I've had dinos before too. It's not JUST how the tank is started, but I do agree it sets you up with a more stable system from the start and it's faster. I don't have the patience to start with dry rock. You can also do all you want in the beginning to avoid pests, but all it takes is one frag that makes it through your dip with a pest. No one is 100% safe.

 

[PotatoPig]

Thank you! FYI in the experience I refer to in my original post, i used 100% Marco rock. Also, it’s not about just time. It’s also about constant costs of seeding dead rock. Pods, bacterias, etc.

These should be one time and modest expenses.

IMO - if you’re starting with dry rock you add some sort of bacteria one time to get a microbiome in there that’ll stop your fish from poisoning themselves in the first few days, and then your bottle bac days are done.

After that everything wet you add will bring in its own set of bacteria that’ll colonize fairly quickly.

In terms of pods - IMO (and opinions vary…) there’s no point in constantly adding pods. The species that thrive in these tanks will promptly colonize after one dose (if you elect to go this route) and the species that don’t thrive get wiped out no matter how much you add them. If I were to redo my tank I’d probably still add a bottle of Tisbe (one time) but skip things like Tigger pods. The rest come in on crabs and so on.

Anyway - barring some really niche use cases bottle bac is a one time expense and pods are a fairly optional one time expense.

This doesn’t stop people from continually forking out for them though…

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

Another question for the old timers around here:

Do any of you remembering having to battle dinos before the days of GFO? I sure don’t. They might flare up for a few days here and there, but nothing persistent.

I remember my first real dino battle. Did all the standard algae remediation stuff, but it wouldn’t budge. Would test the water, and it always had low PO4 (which was always the goal back then). Finally did a week-long black-out. The dinos were gone, but the PO4 barely crept up.

That’s when the light came on for me. Cut the skimmer for awhile and took out the GFO. They came back a little right after, but slowly faded out.

Now dinos are 40% of the threads on this forum.

 

[AquaLogic]

Another question for the old timers around here:

Do any of you remembering having to battle dinos before the days of GFO? I sure don’t. They might flare up for a few days here and there, but nothing persistent.

I remember my first real dino battle. Did all the standard algae remediation stuff, but it wouldn’t budge. Would test the water, and it always had low PO4 (which was always the goal back then). Finally did a week-long black-out. The dinos were gone, but the PO4 barely crept up.

That’s when the light came on for me. Cut the skimmer for awhile and took out the GFO. They came back a little right after, but slowly faded out.

Now dinos are 40% of the threads on this forum.

I think GFO causes more trouble than it's worth sometimes. I would rather control phosphates with water changes, unless you're talking a really huge system.

 

[RealReefHobbyist]

I can’t thank everyone individually so I will post it here, thank you to all who’ve participated in the discussion so far! This has been extremely informative.

 

[Mikeltee]

There are some misconceptions to your statements. First of all, pods and algae scrubbers can keep the uglies at a minimum until the coraline sets in. You only add bacteria once. You can even just add a live rock and get all of that beneficial bacteria on your $2/# dry rock. I am doing it both ways right now. One tank is 100% bottled bacteria and the other is 4# live rock with 50# dry rock and no bottled bacteria. I put coral in the tank day . I'm about 3 weeks into the 40g tank which has the piece of liverock and I just got some SPS. I fully intent to dispell the myths of waiting a year using dry rock. My two tanks are in my build thread if you care to follow along on the progress. You can head over to the skip cycle thread as well and see plenty of people running mostly dry rock without bottled bacteria are successful on day one.

Pods are simple to culture. Here is $40 in pods. Probably worth about $1000 now with minimal effort and a few weeks of patience...

 

[Mikeltee]

Perhaps best of both worlds. Seems impossible to create negative space gluing live rock between scraping enough life off to have a hold fast along with time limit that rock can be out of water before it becomes dead rock

I’m thinking of just adding live rubble as a means of inoculating the main display with the bacterial diversity bottled solutions don’t have. Can be hidden or tucked away or completely outside the display. Literally break apart some real rock and perhaps transport what you can or frag that rock to transport sponges and other nice to have along with better inspection of what it might have not wanted. Hard for a mantis to hide when you just put chisel to their existing hide.

Build your scape and add one piece of live rock. Once your scape is going well after a few months remove it. That's what I'm doing in my small tester tank. Don't add any bottled bacteria. You want the goodies from the LR to spread.