Options for Combating a Dino Outbreak

[JonasRoman]

Hi,
ok, I have removed the UV from the sump. I have also ordered a new bulb. How do you recommend installing in the display? The UV is quite large. It can't just hand on the side like some. Also, my pump is pretty big. Maybe I need a smaller pump?

Thanks.

This is always a bit awkward
Cant find the pics. I let the uv rest on some furniture beside tank and pump was attached to glass close to bottom.

 

[mcarroll]

Hi,
ok, I have removed the UV from the sump. I have also ordered a new bulb. How do you recommend installing in the display? The UV is quite large. It can't just hand on the side like some. Also, my pump is pretty big. Maybe I need a smaller pump?

Thanks.

It can run basically like a canister filter, so where is sits isn't that important..can even be on the floor.

A smaller pump would help, but it will only be temporary either way....maybe it doesn't matter? If you want to switch, seems like a SYNCRA 3.0 or 3.5 ought to have enough push without being too gigantic.

Are those smaller than what you have?

 

[Patrick Cox]

Thats why it doesnt work. Pump must be a temporary installation in displaytank (you will not catch all dino otherwise), and in your case approx 2000 l/h(tank vol 4 itmes /hour) , and for that the UV must be double from you have now, 55w. Also, as yours is one year, its even less effective.

Hi,
I have a question about this. Why are you saying the pump needs to be in the display? Why is the display better than the sump? Doesn't all water flow through the sump?

Thanks.

 

[JonasRoman]

Hi,
I have a question about this. Why are you saying the pump needs to be in the display? Why is the display better than the sump? Doesn't all water flow through the sump?

Thanks.

Yes but its then also relying on sump flow meaning that if uv pump is tanksizex4/hour but sump flow not, then uv will not in reality process all tank water 4 times an hour.
Also, maybe not sure all dinos evenly spread in water but even if leave sand mostly in vicinity of sandbed.

 

[Patrick Cox]

I am keeping it in my sump. But I installed a new bulb, I increased the flow through the sump, and I dialed the flow through the UV to ~450 GPH. it was closer to 350.

I also added bacteria and started dosing Tropic Marin Plus NP. I have also thoroughly cleaned the sand bed, rocks and sump.

Hopefully all of this will help.

 

[ENDUexe]

I am keeping it in my sump. But I installed a new bulb, I increased the flow through the sump, and I dialed the flow through the UV to ~450 GPH. it was closer to 350.

I also added bacteria and started dosing Tropic Marin Plus NP. I have also thoroughly cleaned the sand bed, rocks and sump.

Hopefully all of this will help.

Sorry in advance for the naivety but what is the reason for dosing bacterial products when running UV which kills everything? Is the idea replenishment of the lost bacteria?

 

[Patrick Cox]

Sorry in advance for the naivety but what is the reason for dosing bacterial products when running UV which kills everything? Is the idea replenishment of the lost bacteria?

I turned the UV off when I dosed the bacteria to give it a chance to get into the rock and the sand. Then I turned the UV back on.

 

[Patrick Cox]

One thing I am noticing today is that the brown seems to accumulate more in the lower flow areas under rock overhangs. Is that expected?

 

[slingfox]

Sorry in advance for the naivety but what is the reason for dosing bacterial products when running UV which kills everything? Is the idea replenishment of the lost bacteria?

The idea behind dosing bacteria products and silicates is to increase the competition from other microbes. Unfortunately the battle against Dino’s often consists of throwing a bunch of solutions into the mix and hoping that doing so changes the tank equilibrium in a way detrimental to the Dino’s.

 

[Dan_P]

Yes, but not necessarily in the way you intend to claim.

Studies also clearly show that dinos outperform competitors (diatoms) in some low nutrient situations. It's a complex dance between various competitors and various types of nutrients.

https://hero.epa.gov/reference/742154/

Competition of three bloom-forming marine phytoplankton (diatom Skeletonema costatum, and dinoflagellates Prorocentrum minimum and Alexandrium tamarense) was studied through a series of multispecies cultures with different nitrate (NaNO3) and phosphate (NaH2PO4) levels and excess silicate to interpret red tide algae succession. S. costatum outgrew the other two dinoflagellates in nitrate and phosphate replete cultures with 10 mu mol/L Na2SiO3. Under nitrate limited (8.82 mu mol/L NaNO3) conditions, the growth of S. costatum was also dominant when phosphate concentrations were from 3.6 to 108 mu mol/L. Cell density of the two dinoflagellates only increased slightly, to less than 400 and 600 cells/mL, respectively. Cell density of S. costatum decreased with time before day 12, and then increased to 4000 cells/mL (1.5 mg/L dry biomass) at NaNO3 concentrations between 88.2 and 882 mu mol/L with limited phosphate (0.36 mu mol/L NaH2PO4) levels. In addition, P minimum grew well with a maximal cell density of 1690-2100 cells/mL (0.5-0.6 mg/L dry biomass). Although S. costatum initially grew fast, its cell density decreased quickly with time later in the growth phase and the two dinoflagellates were dominant under the nitrate-limited and high nitrate conditions with limited phosphate. These results indicated that the diatom was a poor competitor compared to the two dinoflagellates under limited phosphate; however, it grew well under limited nitrate when growth of the dinoflagellates was near detection limits.

I have trouble using observations about pelagic dinoflagellate growth to explain or hypothesize about what is causing benthic dinoflagellate growth. On top of that, the knowledge about what makes pelagic dinoflagellates fails to explain the spotty growth of benthic dinoflagellate growth. Ditto for the claim that dosing silicate somehow enables diatoms to zero in on the dinoflagellate benthic films and muscle the dinoflagellates off the surface.

 

[mcarroll]

@Dan_P if you follow this tangent from the big dino thread in the Nuiscance Algae forum where is started it makes more sense. Diatoms aren't theorized to be muscling anything. (There is a legit theory, but as far as I know it's never really been validated very strongly.)

Plenty of journal articles draw conclusions or base theories about "phytoplankton" generally when they are analyzing (eg) diatoms and dinoflagellates together for particular reasons.

All dino's are not mutually unique from each other nor from other phytoplankton....there are commonalities.

Seems worth pointing out (again) that I started that dino thread so there would be a safe place to avoid all the pop theories people have (and will continue to have) on dinoflagellates and their control – like "muscling diatoms", et al. A number of smart cookies like you have contributed to the advances that thread has given us vs dino's....but it wasn't a contribution of pet theories, it was contribution of research and reading through many journal articles.

Journals have plenty of theories that are better rationalized, better tested, and better written than anything we're likely to cook up without their benefit/on our own.....and the proof seems to be in the pudding....most other solutions/theories people have come up with are either totally bogus or VERY narrow in application (like maybe only to the tank in question.)

Whereas using only scientific sources yielded a thread that has solved dino's for many, many, many tanks. Which is what I mean by the proof is in the pudding.....scientific theories won, hands down, so far as a "victory" is possible. (I put "stop battling" in the title on purpose....it's not actually a battle vs dinoflagellates.) ;)

 

[JonasRoman]

Scientific or not, I would like to know how many have really succeeded in defeating dinoflagellates with competitive methods. I am not questioning it.
This is similar to human medicine where it is almost never enough to just introduce a good environment in the first stage, though it works as a prophylactic agent.

Could we have a thread here or elsewhere where we have some sort of results summarised regarding how different methods and their success rates perform? It is very hard to see that in forums where the threads are long and hard to get an overview

 

[mcarroll]

Scientific or not, I would like to know how many have really succeeded in defeating dinoflagellates with competitive methods. I am not questioning it.
This is similar to human medicine where it is almost never enough to just introduce a good environment in the first stage, though it works as a prophylactic agent.

Could we have a thread here or elsewhere where we have some sort of results summarised regarding how different methods and their success rates perform? It is very hard to see that in forums where the threads are long and hard to get an overview

That thread I'm referring to is an exception. Everyone follows the advice from the first post almost verbatim. I haven't counted but I believe there are probably thousands of cases in the thread at this point...perhaps even a statistically relevant number if someone wanted to go actuarial on it. You should be able to see clearly which dino's are primarily being targeted before even getting into the individual cases as well.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I have trouble using observations about pelagic dinoflagellate growth to explain or hypothesize about what is causing benthic dinoflagellate growth. On top of that, the knowledge about what makes pelagic dinoflagellates fails to explain the spotty growth of benthic dinoflagellate growth. Ditto for the claim that dosing silicate somehow enables diatoms to zero in on the dinoflagellate benthic films and muscle the dinoflagellates off the surface.

I agree that there are thousands of different species of dinos with different properties and it’s not necessarily useful to use the properties of one to comment about others.

I’m not sure I understand the diatom comment. Adding silicate can definitely boost diatoms in at least some reef tanks.,I proved that it does in my old tank. Whether that will cause useful competition with dinos can only be determined by trial and error, but again, it appears to be successful in at least some scenarios based on user experiences. Whether that competition is for space or a needed element, of course, cannot be clarified that way.

 

[Patrick Cox]

Well, I am having trouble raising my nutrients....

I have been dosing Plus NP for about 5 days. And before that I was dosing Brightwell products. I removed all media from my sump. I removed the algae scrubber. I turned off my skimmer. I have not removed the roller mat.

Phosphate has remained low and tested 0 today for the first time.

Nitrate has stayed around 3-5. Tested 3.4 today.

How can I raise my nutrients?

Thanks.

 

[Patrick Cox]

Since PO4 was zero, I added some NeoPhos. I also turned my skimmer back on to get some gas exchange. Thanks for any other suggestions.

 

[Dan_P]

I agree that there are thousands of different species of dinos with different properties and it’s not necessarily useful to use the properties of one to comment about others.

I’m not sure I understand the diatom comment. Adding silicate can definitely boost diatoms in at least some reef tanks.,I proved that it does in my old tank. Whether that will cause useful competition with dinos can only be determined by trial and error, but again, it appears to be successful in at least some scenarios based on user experiences. Whether that competition is for space or a needed element, of course, cannot be clarified that way

You possess a unique ability to simplify and clarify the subject of silicate dosing.

 

[EnterName]

I agree that there are thousands of different species of dinos with different properties and it’s not necessarily useful to use the properties of one to comment about others.

I’m not sure I understand the diatom comment. Adding silicate can definitely boost diatoms in at least some reef tanks.,I proved that it does in my old tank. Whether that will cause useful competition with dinos can only be determined by trial and error, but again, it appears to be successful in at least some scenarios based on user experiences. Whether that competition is for space or a needed element, of course, cannot be clarified that way

You possess a unique ability to simplify and clarify the subject of silicate dosing.

Since you pointed out the potential role of periphyton during dinoflagellate blooms, I have always thought of silicate dosing as one way to affect periphyton. When you look at the diatoms present in reef tanks, many are epiphytic or "benthic", so it makes sense that they affect the biofilm in some way. The observations on silicate dosing fit the periphyton theory quite well so far, imo. That doesn't prove anything, but it makes me confident that investigating this topic further could be promising.

I could imagine it extents towards other nuisances as well. Randy has really nice coralline growth, while others can't get it to grow at all. His power heads get overgrown by coralline, mine just get covered in diatoms and then later some Ulva/Ulvaria. Some new coral frag holders got covered in coralline extremely fast in my tank while the back wall is still mostly free of it. The material alone seems to have quite an impact on what grows and what doesn't.

 

[Dan_P]

@Dan_P if you follow this tangent from the big dino thread in the Nuiscance Algae forum where is started it makes more sense. Diatoms aren't theorized to be muscling anything. (There is a legit theory, but as far as I know it's never really been validated very strongly.)

Plenty of journal articles draw conclusions or base theories about "phytoplankton" generally when they are analyzing (eg) diatoms and dinoflagellates together for particular reasons.

All dino's are not mutually unique from each other nor from other phytoplankton....there are commonalities.

Seems worth pointing out (again) that I started that dino thread so there would be a safe place to avoid all the pop theories people have (and will continue to have) on dinoflagellates and their control – like "muscling diatoms", et al. A number of smart cookies like you have contributed to the advances that thread has given us vs dino's....but it wasn't a contribution of pet theories, it was contribution of research and reading through many journal articles.

Journals have plenty of theories that are better rationalized, better tested, and better written than anything we're likely to cook up without their benefit/on our own.....and the proof seems to be in the pudding....most other solutions/theories people have come up with are either totally bogus or VERY narrow in application (like maybe only to the tank in question.)

Whereas using only scientific sources yielded a thread that has solved dino's for many, many, many tanks. Which is what I mean by the proof is in the pudding.....scientific theories won, hands down, so far as a "victory" is possible. (I put "stop battling" in the title on purpose....it's not actually a battle vs dinoflagellates.) ;)

I am not sure what your point is.

 

[Dan_P]

Since you pointed out the potential role of periphyton during dinoflagellate blooms, I have always thought of silicate dosing as one way to affect periphyton. When you look at the diatoms present in reef tanks, many are epiphytic or "benthic", so it makes sense that they affect the biofilm in some way. The observations on silicate dosing fit the periphyton theory quite well so far, imo. That doesn't prove anything, but it makes me confident that investigating this topic further could be promising.

I could imagine it extents towards other nuisances as well. Randy has really nice coralline growth, while others can't get it to grow at all. His power heads get overgrown by coralline, mine just get covered in diatoms and then later some Ulva/Ulvaria. Some new coral frag holders got covered in coralline extremely fast in my tank while the back wall is still mostly free of it. The material alone seems to have quite an impact on what grows and what doesn't.

Good points, and yes, investigating the influence of silicate (nitrate, phosphate, bottled bacteria, etc.) dosing on periphyton communities would be fascinating.

We need to keep in mind that the science behind the notions of what causes dinoflagellate blooms and dinoflagellate-diatom competition is likely based mostly or solely on pelagic studies. This is a very different environment from the benthic environment and could possibly make water chemistry mostly irrelevant. The dosing of silica to enable diatom proliferation is easy to demonstrate but whether this influences the periphyton to make it less desirable to dinoflagellate growth is a hobby idea that seems to be only supported by anecdotal data, post hoc fallacy and confirmation biased literature searches.

The observations around Coraline growth is a good example of why it is difficult to make sense about what and why things are happening in a periphyton. I have indexed all of Randy’s photos showing rock surfaces for the first year and a half of its existence. I hope to be able to learn and say something about his periphyton’s development. :-)