Orchid Dottyback Breeding Attempt

Wolf89

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I am having trouble with my pods, as in I have no idea what I am seeing in the culture.
I highly recommend investing in a microscope. I just ordered a new one for only $40 off amazon, you don't need an insanely expensive peice of equipment. It is also vital to know the prey density (per mil) in your culture as well as the larval tank.
 
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Wolf89

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I am having trouble with my pods, as in I have no idea what I am seeing in the culture. It looks like an incredibly dense amount of sparkling specks in the water, that do seem to be moving on their own too. Wayy smaller than rotifers as well. I think they may be baby Tisbe Pods, but they never seem to grow up to adults as it has been like this almost a week.
This is the best I could get, on HD you can see slight specks drifting underneath the surface.
Its hard to tell via the video, are they motile? They may be ciliates.
 
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PeterLL

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I highly recommend investing in a microscope. I just ordered a new one for only $40 off amazon, you don't need an insanely expensive peice of equipment. It is also vital to know the prey density (per mil) in your culture as well as the larval tank.
I think I will have to invest in one for this, I'll start shopping around.
Its hard to tell via the video, are they motile? They may be ciliates.
They do seem to move yes, when I shine a light from the side it looks like glittery with them moving slowly. Not heard of ciliates before but it does make sense. Do they reproduce incredibly fast?
 
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PeterLL

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I think I will have to invest in one for this, I'll start shopping around.

They do seem to move yes, when I shine a light from the side it looks like glittery with them moving slowly. Not heard of ciliates before but it does make sense. Do they reproduce incredibly fast?
Where could have ciliates come from?
 
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PeterLL

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I'm reading up more about them, and it seems it is what they are. Is it likely they outcompeted my Tisbe Pods (which I do not see any now)?
Looks like I will have to up the Rotifer production


I may add my Tigriopus Copepods to the 40L copepods culture tub. This way I will have a good stock of them, and then can filter down to just young copepods under 125 microns using a seive, to then feed to the larvae along with the rotifers. Does that sound feesible as a quick alternative?
 
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Wolf89

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Where could have ciliates come from?
Well I would say phytoplankton, but you've been using dead phyto right? Not sure in that case.
I think I will have to invest in one for this, I'll start shopping around.

They do seem to move yes, when I shine a light from the side it looks like glittery with them moving slowly. Not heard of ciliates before but it does make sense. Do they reproduce incredibly fast?
i don't have experience with them, but in the book about them Moe had problems with them as well. So I would assume so.
 
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PeterLL

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This is the one I just ordered, I'll let you know how it goes.
Hi, don't think the link is showing! What is the name of it?

I am having a bit of a crysis copepod wise. I spot the very occasional Tisbe Pod amongst the millions of cilliates. I had to pay over 100usd for the Tisbe pods so I am wondering if there is anything I can do to isolate just the Tisbe's. Right now I have no pods, and have got rotifers going in a 4L jar, 10L bucket, and a 20L bucket.
Tonight is the big night too so wiped the muck bucket down with RO, and added the equipment. I'm really hoping nothing further goes wrong as this batch of eggs already seems to be on the verge of failure lol. I do notice some slight black spots on the eggs so looks like some development has ocurred! I have Isochrysis Gabana arrived on Thursday which I will use to tint the water, but for now it is just live rotifers.
 
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Eggs harvested and placed in the tumbler. Wee black spots are the eyes forming :)
D88EF4CC-8E80-48AF-A9A8-CA90CFA04574.jpeg
 

Skydvr

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Isolating the copepods can be done, but it will be a little tedious. If you have sives small enough to capture the adults and nauplii bit pass the celiates, it will be much easier. You can collect and rinse the copepods very well to isolate, then transfer to a small container to grow out what is collected. It may require doing this multiple times, as well as periodically, to get a relatively clean culture.

The frequency of doing this will depend on the life cycle of the ciliates and copepods. The ciliate lifecycle is likely short enough that washing the culture before they hit the reproductive phase is impractical. You just need to stay ahead enough to be able to grow the copepod culture to the point where you feel you can pull off enough adults to start a fresh culture where they are clean enough to significantly reduce the ciliate population.

For what it’s worth, having ciliates might not be a bad thing as long as you are able to control the population enough to allow the copepods to maintain effective densities. Kathy L. suspects her issue with not being able to reproduce her success with dwarf angles (at least in higher numbers) is related to the ciliate population crashing. She was successful when the cultures were contaminated, but little success since. Though the ciliates were not significantly effecting the copepods and she had other food sources to help compensate for the reduced copepod production.
 
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Martin’s book was a good read, but I’m not sure it was the best resource if you are budget concious. Lots of good info for logging and keeping track and for info on early larval stages, but most of that info is available elsewhere, including some of his other work. More of an example of how not to do it than anything else (at least that it what I took from it).

It is a journal of his process and struggles more than a how to, but he is upfront about that. Buy it used and you should be happy with it. Paying retail and expecting an instruction manual will leave you disappointed.

If you are struggling with the process or it feels too daunting and that you need precise scientific protocols, it will be an awesome resource. He does a really good job of documenting his mistakes and showing that you can still be successful with less than perfect conditions, equipment, and processes.
 
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PeterLL

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Thank You so much for the response! I will definitely start attempting to clean the pods from ciliates and have some sieves on the way.
That's super interesting that ciliates have a benefit to the larval fish, do you have any idea why? Only reasons I could think of off the top of my head is that the fish eat them or the copepods do and get enriched by them.
And that is kind of what I had in mind regarding his book. No doubt its a very interesting read and honestly will probably pick it up at some point, just wasn't sure it would help me too much whos got rotifer's growing on his bedside table and a black bucket in the free corner of his room lol.
 
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PeterLL

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An update!
I have noticed fry!!
I have come across a slight dilemma. The fry were of course trapped in the egg tumbler. I was debating whether I remove them, involving a bright torch, and lots of shaking about, which may be too much for the newly hatched fish, or I leave them be, but that would mean a, relatively, strong flow they are trapped in all night long. The design of the tumbler doesn't allow escape really as they are trapped between bits of plastic with tiny holes for water flow, and a constant upward flow of water.
I decided to remove them (of which I could only spot 4-5) and reassmbled to hopefully get more hatch overnight.
I think I will try to further encourage the mail to move to a tube, as it would cute out this super finicky step involving the tumbler.
 
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PeterLL

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Note: To see it best go to the youtube website and turn to 1080/60. Done by clicking on the title of the video (which is the date)

Lots and Lots of fry.
Woke up to them everywhere so it seems they can hatch and escape the tumbler without any of my help!
A lot have hatched too, more than I expected. Feeding rotifers 4 times a day. When I shine a torch into the tank it seems that I can see tonnes of rotifers floating in the bucket anyway.
 
Budmans

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Note: To see it best go to the youtube website and turn to 1080/60. Done by clicking on the title of the video (which is the date)

Lots and Lots of fry.
Woke up to them everywhere so it seems they can hatch and escape the tumbler without any of my help!
A lot have hatched too, more than I expected. Feeding rotifers 4 times a day. When I shine a torch into the tank it seems that I can see tonnes of rotifers floating in the bucket anyway.
Congratulations! Im very excited for you, and you seem to have all your ducks in a row and i hope the fry make it okay!
 
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PeterLL

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Thank you both!
@Wolf89. I have a couple questions.
Why is a small sponge filter not recommended? To follow on, why is adding some ATM Colony or similar bacteria not seen recommended to help manage ammonia?
Secondly, Polyfilter, it seems like a bit of a godsend - mopping up almost anything that could be potentially damaging to the fish's growth like ammonia, metals, nitrates etc. How come this hasnt been seen used?
Finally, how about something like chaeto in the bottom? A bit of nutrient uptake and also provides a bit of a refuge for the fry, yet never see stuff like this either.
These are just some questions that have come to mind while watching them
 

Wolf89

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Why is a small sponge filter not recommended?
A filter sponge works by creating a suction toward the sponge and new born larvae arent strong enough to get past the suction. Once they grow it may be possible.
why is adding some ATM Colony or similar bacteria not seen recommended to help manage ammonia?
I would assume because of the limited surface area. Bacteria doesn't live in the water, but on surfaces. In larval tanks you have very little surface area. But if you try to add surface area, you could run into the non beneficial bacteria which can ruin a whole batch. It's a delicate balance. Water changes and powder/liquid ammonia reducers seem to be the way to go. The company I intern at uses a sump, skimmer, UV, and chaeto on their larval system! Live phyto also consumes ammonia.
Secondly, Polyfilter, it seems like a bit of a godsend - mopping up almost anything that could be potentially damaging to the fish's growth like ammonia, metals, nitrates etc. How come this hasnt been seen used?
Probably too much of a detritus trap. But I'd be interested in seeing some experiments with it.
Finally, how about something like chaeto in the bottom?
Good idea, they use it where i intern, but that is in the sump. But I'm sure it could be beneficial either way. I'd be concerned with giving it enough light, as larval need dim lighting for the first little while.
 
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PeterLL

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A filter sponge works by creating a suction toward the sponge and new born larvae arent strong enough to get past the suction. Once they grow it may be possible.
That's interesting, I was thinking that coupled with maybe rotifers getting caught up in the sponge and dying as opposed to being eaten. I will admit I have been running a sponge filter but with the flow greatly restricted and they don't seem to have an issue but I guess it's more once they get trapped near the sponge they can't free themselves. I think I will probably remove it tomorrow and reintroduce once they are larger.
I would assume because of the limited surface area. Bacteria doesn't live in the water, but on surfaces. In larval tanks you have very little surface area. But if you try to add surface area, you could run into the non beneficial bacteria which can ruin a whole batch. It's a delicate balance. Water changes and powder/liquid ammonia reducers seem to be the way to go. The company I intern at uses a sump, skimmer, UV, and chaeto on their larval system! Live phyto also consumes ammonia.
How do you mean a non-beneficial bacteria destroying the batch? If I added some inert filter media and some ATM Colony in area where super gentle flow goes over it what would the risks there be? I can get the message to KISS and to not mess around with too many living things.
Probably too much of a detritus trap. But I'd be interested in seeing some experiments with it.
Good idea, they use it where i intern, but that is in the sump. But I'm sure it could be beneficial either way. I'd be concerned with giving it enough light, as larval need dim lighting for the first little while.
Think I might have a go with these last two points then! Thank you, appreciate the replies and info! Once again very thankful for all your help on this its great to have your experiene!!
 

Wolf89

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How do you mean a non-beneficial bacteria destroying the batch? If I added some inert filter media and some ATM Colony in area where super gentle flow goes over it what would the risks there be? I can get the message to KISS and to not mess around with too many living things.
Well I don't know a ton about this particular subeject. But in the book, Moe had big problems with some type of bacteria killing his larvae. And we (the lab I intern at) use UV specifically to reduce bacterial populations and we severely limit surface area. It is a problem that seems to be preventable with little work. Moe used lots of antibiotics. But I suppose it's worth a shot, but I'd try to get the process down before experimenting too much.
 

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