Order of Operations Post Cycle

[Chickadeedeedee]

Hey All,

I am a fresh water guy dipping my toes (or going head first) into salt.

I have just started the cycle 3 days ago. I dosed the tank up to 1 ppm Am with Dr. Tims AmCl solution. I was a bit hesitant to go to high in Am as I am worried about getting too much Nitrate at the end of the cycle. I dont have my plants to suck all of it out of solution and salt is surprisingly expensive for large water changes.

Tank stats:
75 gallon 4 ft long
2x Tidal 75s (kicking myself for not going sump)
3 in sand bed
~60 lbs of Caribsea Liferock (does this actually work??) and ~2 lbs of live rock from a LFS (will get some more live next week)
2x AI 16 HD lights
2x Hygger wavemakers
Osmolator3 ATO

I got a bit bottled bacteria happy and dosed PNS deep cycle, Microbacter7, and Prodibio.

Surprisingly it only took 2 days for nitrites to show up (No nitrate numbers yet as I am using the unreliable API fresh water kit. Will fix that soon)! For comparison, it took 9 days for my 40 gal fresh and 7 for my 10 gallon fresh to show nitrites.

I am making this thread to get an idea of the order of operations going forward.

I am planning to have a predominantly LPS coral tank. I may also look into some macro algae (depending on the Tang situation). I want to keep stocking at a light to medium capacity as I am not a fan of overstocking and want fish to have space.

Once I finish the cycle I was thinking about getting a few hardy corals ($10-$20 frags only to start in case they die) and going hard on clean up inverts. Two LFS I talked to seemed to suggest that I wouldn't even need full cycling to add some life into the tank. Do I need to get the 2 ppm Am in 24h to add life? When should I stock with fish? I was thinking about only adding fish a one or two at a time as I do not currently have quarantining capacity and need to be extremely careful with buying stock. It was suggested also that I might want to start with a bristlemouth tank like a Tomini as they are good workers. Would adding an aggressive fish first cause problems if I want to keep a peaceful tank? Are there more peaceful worker fish.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just one bit of advice for a freshwater guy, nitrite is not any concern is seawater. It might be worth monitoring to see that ammonia is declining, but nitrite need not be zero to move on.

 

[edsbeaker]

Hello and welcome!
Let me try and answer some of your questions.

First, it is recommended to dose 2 ppm of ammonia. You need to create a biofilter strong enough to support the livestock you will be adding. Yes, nitrate will increase, but that is part of the cycle.
Water changes, will be necessary in this hobby, so it’s not the best way to approach this hobby trying to save on salt.

As far as order of livestock, once your cycle is over, EDIT: I would do a large water change. As a newbie, I would suggest that you wait on adding corals for at least a month or two. Experienced reefers can get away with adding them right away because we tend to have a better handle on keeping our parameters stable, something that newer reefers may find harder. It won’t hurt your tank to add them, but you may not have success right from the start. I would suggest forgiving soft corals like zoas, or mushrooms to start with.

After cycling, I would add fish first. There is a problem with your stated plan on adding fish one by one because you aren’t going to quarantine. A fish can enter your tank carrying diseases that may not show up for a few months. Like ich, for example. A fish could not be showing signs of it and all of a sudden, one day be covered with it. Now it’s too late, it’s in your tank and the only way to get it out is to run your tank for 70 days fishless. Unlike freshwater tanks, many medications are poisonous in a reef tank. So adding fish one by one is not going to help protect the newcomers.

If you are determined to not quarantine, your only real option is disease management instead of disease prevention. This works for some, but I prefer to prevent.

I would NOT start with a tomini tang. You will want to start your tank with your least aggressive fish to begin with. Tangs are not in this category!

After the cycle you are going to notice the beginning of ugly nuisance algae’s from diatoms to hair algae. You may also get cyano. This is the sign to add a clean up crew, snails, hermits, etc. These are the inverts that are going to be your work horses until you can add utility fish, like a tomini tang to your tank.

IMO, Waiting until after you add your clean up crew (CUC), is probably best to start adding small frags of inexpensive easy corals.

Here is a link that may help you with your journey. Good luck. It’s a wild ride, but quite rewarding.

Cycling an Aquarium

Cycling a new aquarium. One of the earliest topics a new aquarium hobbyist needs to learn is how to properly cycle their aquarium. There is a ton of information on this process and many different methods on how to accomplish it. There are many different chemical and biological cycles our tank...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[BeanAnimal]

I would do a large water change. As a newbie, I would suggest that you wait on adding corals for at least a month or two.

In all but edge cases where there are acute problems, there really is no benefit to doing a water change at this point. It is passed on practice based on the practice of passing it on — a waste of time, water and salt.

I am not arguing against water changes, but there is very little in a new system to dilute with the almost universally prescribed post-cycle water change.

 

[edsbeaker]

In all but edge cases where there are acute problems, there really is no benefit to doing a water change at this point. It is passed on practice based on the practice of passing it on — a waste of time, water and salt.

I am not arguing against water changes, but there is very little in a new system to dilute with the almost universally prescribed post-cycle water change.

You are right! I am still trying to embrace this new mentality of higher nitrates and phosphates. The water change definitely comes from my auto pilot brain of the past. It’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks!

 

[Fish Fan]

In all but edge cases where there are acute problems, there really is no benefit to doing a water change at this point. It is passed on practice based on the practice of passing it on — a waste of time, water and salt.

I am not arguing against water changes, but there is very little in a new system to dilute with the almost universally prescribed post-cycle water change.

Bean, I think the reason that a large water change post fish-less cycle is often suggested is that when following the Dr. Tim's "method" you can end up with very high nitrates (>75 ppm) due to using too much of the ammonium chloride. On smaller tanks like ten gallons, I don't think doing a large water change is a bad idea at all, but at 75 gallons you have a great point about wasting saltwater, which is the OP's concern.

I would also agree that high nitrates may not be a problem, and there are other ways to reduce nitrates besides dumping 90% of the water

Thank you for your help here, Bean!

 

[TheReeferer]

I’d add a few pellets of food for cycle every day as opposed to buying cycle specific snake oil in a bottle and measure how much ammonia to add for cycling…. What has the hobby become lol


After cycle I’d add some chromis and off you go!

Once nitrate and phosphate start to rise make sure your export method is working and focus on that ie make sure refuge algae is growing or skimmer is working etc

 

[Fish Fan]

@Chickadeedeedee You're already getting some great advice from some very experienced reefers here, but I'll add that CaribbSea "Life Rock" is not a "real" live rock. It's fine to use, but I just want to be clear as it bothers me that they choose a name that's so misleading. Consider this rock like dry rocks.

I also would encourage you to either purchase pre QT'd fish (and ideally all livestock) or QT'ing fish yourself.

Current Quarantine Protocol

2024 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed, proactive quarantine process can effectively eliminate these...

www.reef2reef.com

Good luck!

 

[Fish Fan]

I’d add a few pellets of food for cycle every day as opposed to buying cycle specific snake oil in a bottle and measure how much ammonia to add for cycling…. What has the hobby become lol


After cycle I’d add some chromis and off you go!

Once nitrate and phosphate start to rise make sure your export method is working and focus on that ie make sure refuge algae is growing or skimmer is working etc

Good reply, thank you for your help here!

I think a lot of people prefer using bottled ammonium chloride because it's easier to get the ammonia concentration up to the recommended ~2.0 ppm, and because it's "clean", you're not starting a tank with rotting food or a rotting piece of shrimp, the later of which can actually start to stink, literally.

That said, I do believe the bacteria need phosphate in addition to an ammonia source, and for that reason adding a bit of fish food may be helpful here.

I've not used it myself, but I see that Tropic Marin now offers a product that address the need for both ammonia and phosphate when cycling a tank:

Phos-Start | Produktinformationen

www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com

 

[BeanAnimal]

That said, I do believe the bacteria need phosphate in addition to an ammonia source, and for that reason adding a bit of fish food may be helpful here.

Many of these bottled bacteria products contain heterotrophs, not nitrifiers.

The prevailing advice from the talking heads appears to be to keep dumping this crap in whole also repeatedly dumping in ammonium chloride -- over and over -- until the system is able to process the ammonia down to zero and testing shows rising nitrite and nitrate.

The advice (IMHO) is garbage and a result of marketing to sell product (bacteria and ammonium) and furthered by those who think it is the "modern" better way.

What happens? Heterotrophic bloom that consumes ammonia to something not zero. The new aquarist dumps in more heterotrophs and more ammonia and sustains the hetertorophic bloom. Nitrifiers never get a foothold, as they are outcompeted by the voracious appetite of the heterotrophs. Eventually the system becomes carbon or phosphate limited and everything stagnates. No food for nitrifiers and dead heterotrophs. Dumping more in just restarts the broken process.

The flake or other organic material gives the nitrifiers a chance (food), but only if one stops dumping in heterotrophs and ammonium.

There is a recent thread asking if reefing is "harder or easier" now... reefing is reefing and not harder, people and the need to create "new" methods are making it harder for "new" people to get started. The noise and poor information have risen to deafening levels.

Bottom line:
Raise ammonia by some means. Let nature do it's work and watch for it to start dropping. Add fish. No need to keep dumping in crap from a bottle and raising ammonia over and over.

 

[Chickadeedeedee]

Just one bit of advice for a freshwater guy, nitrite is not any concern is seawater. It might be worth monitoring to see that ammonia is declining, but nitrite need not be zero to move on.

Yeah I have read that. It blows my fresh water mind!

I am just monitoring Nitrite to monitor the cycle. It is easier to see nitrites increasing than ammonia decreasing due to the resolution of the crappy API kits I am using.

Why is it that nitrites are not a concern? Is there something with the water chemistry that makes it not an issue?

 

[Chickadeedeedee]

Hello and welcome!
Let me try and answer some of your questions.

First, it is recommended to dose 2 ppm of ammonia. You need to create a biofilter strong enough to support the livestock you will be adding. Yes, nitrate will increase, but that is part of the cycle.
Water changes, will be necessary in this hobby, so it’s not the best way to approach this hobby trying to save on salt.

As far as order of livestock, once your cycle is over, EDIT: I would do a large water change. As a newbie, I would suggest that you wait on adding corals for at least a month or two. Experienced reefers can get away with adding them right away because we tend to have a better handle on keeping our parameters stable, something that newer reefers may find harder. It won’t hurt your tank to add them, but you may not have success right from the start. I would suggest forgiving soft corals like zoas, or mushrooms to start with.

After cycling, I would add fish first. There is a problem with your stated plan on adding fish one by one because you aren’t going to quarantine. A fish can enter your tank carrying diseases that may not show up for a few months. Like ich, for example. A fish could not be showing signs of it and all of a sudden, one day be covered with it. Now it’s too late, it’s in your tank and the only way to get it out is to run your tank for 70 days fishless. Unlike freshwater tanks, many medications are poisonous in a reef tank. So adding fish one by one is not going to help protect the newcomers.

If you are determined to not quarantine, your only real option is disease management instead of disease prevention. This works for some, but I prefer to prevent.

I would NOT start with a tomini tang. You will want to start your tank with your least aggressive fish to begin with. Tangs are not in this category!

After the cycle you are going to notice the beginning of ugly nuisance algae’s from diatoms to hair algae. You may also get cyano. This is the sign to add a clean up crew, snails, hermits, etc. These are the inverts that are going to be your work horses until you can add utility fish, like a tomini tang to your tank.

IMO, Waiting until after you add your clean up crew (CUC), is probably best to start adding small frags of inexpensive easy corals.

Here is a link that may help you with your journey. Good luck. It’s a wild ride, but quite rewarding.

Cycling an Aquarium

Cycling a new aquarium. One of the earliest topics a new aquarium hobbyist needs to learn is how to properly cycle their aquarium. There is a ton of information on this process and many different methods on how to accomplish it. There are many different chemical and biological cycles our tank...

www.reef2reef.com

Thankyou for the super detailed reply.

I will be careful with coral soon after the cycle then. I may go with a few easy ones like you suggested that I am ok if I lose them and wait a few months before fully stocking the tank.

I will look into pre-quarantined fish and try to start building up some quarantine infrastructure of my own. Thank you for confirming my suspicions with the tang. Will wait till I get some peaceful fish established first before adding them.
Could I run an initial stocking list by you. Again I want to start a bit understocked:
2x Clowns
1x Watchman Gobbi
1x Dart Fish
1x Bengali Cardinal
1x Royal Gramma (was told that these guys dont play too nice by a LFS so I am on the fence)
1x Lawnmower Blenny
Later on:
1x Some type of bristlemouth tang
1x 6 line Wrasse

Are there any CUC inverts that I should plan to add sooner rather than later or should I just add fully based on need.

 

[Chickadeedeedee]

@Chickadeedeedee You're already getting some great advice from some very experienced reefers here, but I'll add that CaribbSea "Life Rock" is not a "real" live rock. It's fine to use, but I just want to be clear as it bothers me that they choose a name that's so misleading. Consider this rock like dry rocks.

I also would encourage you to either purchase pre QT'd fish (and ideally all livestock) or QT'ing fish yourself.

Current Quarantine Protocol

2024 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed, proactive quarantine process can effectively eliminate these...

www.reef2reef.com

Good luck!

Yeah I kinda assumed that Life Rock was a scam haha. I do like the color though so its got that going.

Also, will go the pre-QT route to start, but will look at getting some QT infrastructure.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Thankyou for the super detailed reply.

I will be careful with coral soon after the cycle then. I may go with a few easy ones like you suggested that I am ok if I lose them and wait a few months before fully stocking the tank.

I will look into pre-quarantined fish and try to start building up some quarantine infrastructure of my own. Thank you for confirming my suspicions with the tang. Will wait till I get some peaceful fish established first before adding them.
Could I run an initial stocking list by you. Again I want to start a bit understocked:
2x Clowns
1x Watchman Gobbi
1x Dart Fish
1x Bengali Cardinal
1x Royal Gramma (was told that these guys dont play too nice by a LFS so I am on the fence)
1x Lawnmower Blenny
Later on:
1x Some type of bristlemouth tang
1x 6 line Wrasse

Are there any CUC inverts that I should plan to add sooner rather than later or should I just add fully based on need.

All fish can be jumpers. Dartfish and the six line wrasse are certain jumpers.

The cardinal is almost certain to have disease, they live very short lives in captivity and they prefer deep, dark and shady spots. Popular, but poor choice for most people.

The lawnmower will starve in a new tank.

Not to be disagreeable here, but a new reef aquarist should not be adding that many fish at once.

Add the clowns and see how it goes. Then some weeks or a month or two later, the gobi and see how it goes.

Buy from @Dr. Reef or captive raised from @Biota_Marine or an ORA vendor.

Take it slow and learn as you go. Spend money once, not 11 times.

 

[edsbeaker]

Thankyou for the super detailed reply.

I will be careful with coral soon after the cycle then. I may go with a few easy ones like you suggested that I am ok if I lose them and wait a few months before fully stocking the tank.

I will look into pre-quarantined fish and try to start building up some quarantine infrastructure of my own. Thank you for confirming my suspicions with the tang. Will wait till I get some peaceful fish established first before adding them.
Could I run an initial stocking list by you. Again I want to start a bit understocked:
2x Clowns
1x Watchman Gobbi
1x Dart Fish
1x Bengali Cardinal
1x Royal Gramma (was told that these guys dont play too nice by a LFS so I am on the fence)
1x Lawnmower Blenny
Later on:
1x Some type of bristlemouth tang
1x 6 line Wrasse

Are there any CUC inverts that I should plan to add sooner rather than later or should I just add fully based on need

Your stocking list looks really good! Just add a couple at a time. You want to let your filtering capacity to build up, and it will as each small group of one or two fish are added. It helps to keep your parameters more stable.

Regarding the Royal Gramma. They are very protective of there cave when a fish comes close. I have never had one that has attacked another fish, but I suppose it happens. IMO, I wouldn’t omit having one in your tank if you like them. I think the concern could be a bit exaggerated, and a 75 gallon gives your other fish plenty of room to stay clear of it.

The lawnmower Blenny loves algae, so you may want to make sure your live rock has some to graze on before getting one.

I would not put any CUC in the tank until some of the ugly nuisance algae’s have started to appear. They will starve without it. There are a lot of choices. I tend to get Nerites, Ceriths, Trochus, and Nassarius. Here is a link to a store that sells CUC. I’m linking it because it gives great information on what types of algae’s or detritus they help to clear up.

I would also start small with the CUC and add more as needed.

Hope this helps!
Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[Chickadeedeedee]

Your stocking list looks really good! Just add a couple at a time. You want to let your filtering capacity to build up, and it will as each small group of one or two fish are added. It helps to keep your parameters more stable.

Regarding the Royal Gramma. They are very protective of there cave when a fish comes close. I have never had one that has attacked another fish, but I suppose it happens. IMO, I wouldn’t omit having one in your tank if you like them. I think the concern could be a bit exaggerated, and a 75 gallon gives your other fish plenty of room to stay clear of it.

The lawnmower Blenny loves algae, so you may want to make sure your live rock has some to graze on before getting one.

I would not put any CUC in the tank until some of the ugly nuisance algae’s have started to appear. They will starve without it. There are a lot of choices. I tend to get Nerites, Ceriths, Trochus, and Nassarius. Here is a link to a store that sells CUC. I’m linking it because it gives great information on what types of algae’s or detritus they help to clear up.

I would also start small with the CUC and add more as needed.

Hope this helps!
Let me know if you have any other questions.

I will take yours and @BeanAnimal advice and add slow. I will start with clowns and then a gobi later on (I do want to do a gobi pistol shrimp combo one day).
Will look into those inverts! I may stay away from nerites though as I have found them to be egg factories. In my 20 long betta tank my nerites have laid eggs I every surface including the mystery snail. I am just waiting for the day I find an egg on the betta haha

 

[edsbeaker]

I will take yours and @BeanAnimal advice and add slow. I will start with clowns and then a gobi later on (I do want to do a gobi pistol shrimp combo one day).
Will look into those inverts! I may stay away from nerites though as I have found them to be egg factories. In my 20 long betta tank my nerites have laid eggs I every surface including the mystery snail. I am just waiting for the day I find an egg on the betta haha

I forgot to add the link!!!!

Tank Cleaners

Our saltwater tank cleaners are competitively priced, but more importantly they get the job done and we know their behavior and what they eat. Utilizing the right combination of species will yield the best results.

www.reefcleaners.org

 

[Fish Fan]

Many of these bottled bacteria products contain heterotrophs, not nitrifiers.

The prevailing advice from the talking heads appears to be to keep dumping this crap in whole also repeatedly dumping in ammonium chloride -- over and over -- until the system is able to process the ammonia down to zero and testing shows rising nitrite and nitrate.

The advice (IMHO) is garbage and a result of marketing to sell product (bacteria and ammonium) and furthered by those who think it is the "modern" better way.

What happens? Heterotrophic bloom that consumes ammonia to something not zero. The new aquarist dumps in more heterotrophs and more ammonia and sustains the hetertorophic bloom. Nitrifiers never get a foothold, as they are outcompeted by the voracious appetite of the heterotrophs. Eventually the system becomes carbon or phosphate limited and everything stagnates. No food for nitrifiers and dead heterotrophs. Dumping more in just restarts the broken process.

The flake or other organic material gives the nitrifiers a chance (food), but only if one stops dumping in heterotrophs and ammonium.

There is a recent thread asking if reefing is "harder or easier" now... reefing is reefing and not harder, people and the need to create "new" methods are making it harder for "new" people to get started. The noise and poor information have risen to deafening levels.

Bottom line:
Raise ammonia by some means. Let nature do it's work and watch for it to start dropping. Add fish. No need to keep dumping in crap from a bottle and raising ammonia over and over.

I agree 100% about the continued use of bacteria in a bottle products is unnecessary, as well as a healthy amount of misinformation and marketing hype is at play here. The continued dumping of the ammonium chloride is indeed the reason so many here at R2R end up with sky-high nitrates, and often times the "easy" advice is just to do a water change.

I'm not in disagreement with you here at all, I'm just pointing out what I see from so many new R2R members when cycling their tanks.

Thank you for your help and reply, Bean!

 

[Chickadeedeedee]

I agree 100% about the continued use of bacteria in a bottle products is unnecessary, as well as a healthy amount of misinformation and marketing hype is at play here. The continued dumping of the ammonium chloride is indeed the reason so many here at R2R end up with sky-high nitrates, and often times the "easy" advice is just to do a water change.

I'm not in disagreement with you here at all, I'm just pointing out what I see from so many new R2R members when cycling their tanks.

Thank you for your help and reply, Bean!

Even though I do use them, I do see them as a bit of a snake oil. I see them as something that "may" help the cycle, but not something actively harmful.

Should I stay the course with my current Am plan (dose carefully and monitor closely)? In the stickied tank cycling thread it lists Am cycling as the best option.

How do I feed the bacteria?
...
Dosing pure ammonia – This is the only method I will ever use in the future. You can measure exactly how much you need to add to achieve a specific level of ammonia. You can measure just how quickly your bacteria consume it to judge the health of your bacteria population

Further on it recommends the more aggressive dosing strategy for tanks under 90 gallons.

I will either use pure ammonia or ammonium chloride to raise the total ammonia to 2ppm. I will test for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates daily until ammonia is near 0ppm. I will then dose it back up to 2ppm while continuing daily tests. I will repeat this process in a smaller tank until ammonia goes from 2ppm to 0ppm within 24 hours. In tanks that are 90g+ that will be stocked slowly I will only dose to 1ppm ammonia after the initial dose and consider it cycled when it drops from 1ppm to 0ppm in 24 hours. This is to limit nitrates in larger tanks. Keep in mind that a 120g system that drops 1ppm in a day can support more fish than a 40g tank that drops 2ppm in a day.

 

[MnFish1]

I agree 100% about the continued use of bacteria in a bottle products is unnecessary, as well as a healthy amount of misinformation and marketing hype is at play here. The continued dumping of the ammonium chloride is indeed the reason so many here at R2R end up with sky-high nitrates, and often times the "easy" advice is just to do a water change.

I'm not in disagreement with you here at all, I'm just pointing out what I see from so many new R2R members when cycling their tanks.

Thank you for your help and reply, Bean!

I think the OP has one issue with his cycle and thats not following the protocol of the products he has chosen to use - which seems to be the problem with many people having cycling 'problems'.

I.e. If Dr. Tims says dose to 2 ppm, then dose to 2 ppm. Adding bottled bacteria (which as already mentioned many contain heterotrophs) is fine. They will also lower ammonia. I recommend Fritz 9000 as I believe that they contain nitrifiers based on the experiments by Dr. Reef.

I agree with you that continued addition of bacteria, etc is not needed - especially if the goal is 'increasing diversity'.

As to the rest of the questions - there is some validity to the idea of adding coral first - as they can also utilize ammonia (not when it's too high of course) - followed by fish. But - the amount of coral needed to do this successfully is likely higher than reasonable.