Order of Operations Post Cycle

[BeanAnimal]

Even though I do use them, I do see them as a bit of a snake oil. I see them as something that "may" help the cycle, but not something actively harmful.

See my post above. There is no need to keep dumping bottled bacteria into a cycling tank, and in fact, a very real chance of it disrupting the colonization of nitrifiers, by allowing heterotrophs to outcompete them, if not exhaust resources.

Should I stay the course with my current Am plan (dose carefully and monitor closely)? In the stickied tank cycling thread it lists Am cycling as the best option.

Dose ammonia -- one time. Wait for it to head toward zero.. it does not need to be zero. Wait a few days, dose a bit more if you want to double check, and watch it drop. Don't keep doing it or continue adding bottled bacteria. You are not "helping" anything.

 

[Fish Fan]

I think the OP has one issue with his cycle and thats not following the protocol of the products he has chosen to use - which seems to be the problem with many people having cycling 'problems'.

I.e. If Dr. Tims says dose to 2 ppm, then dose to 2 ppm. Adding bottled bacteria (which as already mentioned many contain heterotrophs) is fine. They will also lower ammonia. I recommend Fritz 9000 as I believe that they contain nitrifiers based on the experiments by Dr. Reef.

I agree with you that continued addition of bacteria, etc is not needed - especially if the goal is 'increasing diversity'.

As to the rest of the questions - there is some validity to the idea of adding coral first - as they can also utilize ammonia (not when it's too high of course) - followed by fish. But - the amount of coral needed to do this successfully is likely higher than reasonable.

Very well said!

Thank you for your help here!!

 

[BeanAnimal]

I.e. If Dr. Tims says dose to 2 ppm, then dose to 2 ppm. Adding bottled bacteria (which as already mentioned many contain heterotrophs) is fine. They will also lower ammonia. I recommend Fritz 9000 as I believe that they contain nitrifiers based on the experiments by Dr. Reef.

They do lower ammonia and they are fine -- the problem is that if you keep dumping them and ammonia in, then the nitrifiers never get a chance to expand -- the heterotrophs do all of the work, outcompete the nitrifiers and then die off, leaving a "stalled" cycle. Adding more bottled back an ammonia does not move the process forward, it just repeats it -- using more P and C each time.

Dr. Tim or and other bottled bacteria vendors goal is to sell product. Of course they want you to keep dumping it and ammonia in -- it is marketing aimed at selling products. The problem is the issue described above. Cycling is not hard, but these products don't make it easier if they are used as "directed" or as the prevailing advice appears to recommends.

 

[MnFish1]

They do lower ammonia and they are fine -- the problem is that if you keep dumping them and ammonia in, then the nitrifiers never get a chance to expand -- the heterotrophs do all of the work, outcompete the nitrifiers and then die off, leaving a "stalled" cycle. Adding more bottled back an ammonia does not move the process forward, it just repeats it -- using more P and C each time.

Dr. Tim or and other bottled bacteria vendors goal is to sell product. Of course they want you to keep dumping it and ammonia in -- it is marketing aimed at selling products. The problem is the issue described above. Cycling is not hard, but these products don't make it easier if they are used as "directed" or as the prevailing advice appears to recommends.

Agree completely - I totally disagree with continuing to add bacteria to tanks. If I was going to start a cycle, I would not choose starting with liquid ammonia. But thats another topic

 

[Fish Fan]

Agree completely - I totally disagree with continuing to add bacteria to tanks. If I was going to start a cycle, I would not choose starting with liquid ammonia. But thats another topic

Could you maybe offer a quick idea of why you prefer another ammonia source to bottled ammonium chloride? I'm sincerely asking

 

[Chickadeedeedee]

Thank you all for your detailed help!

Alright there is a ton of good information here, but there is some conflicting so I want to layout a general plan to make sure I am on the right track.

@BeanAnimal, @Fish Fan, @MnFish1 or @edsbeaker are you able to see if there are any major issues with it?

Plan:
1. Stop dosing bottle bacteria, but possibly add a live rock from a LFS
2. Wait till currently added Am fully converts to Nitrate
3. Dose to 1-1.5 ppm Am (I know the concentrations or if I should dose again are in contention)
4. Wait till Am is fully converted. The goal would be 1-2 ppm within 24 hours, but I should be careful to not overdose to reach that
5. Test Nitrate and water change if necessary to get below 20 ppm (10ppm?)
6. Turn on lights. Add some very hearty LPS corals, but do not buy anything expensive or go overboard
7. Monitor for algae, diatoms, and cyano bacteria and add inverts to target specific issues as they arise (no sentient life before ammonia is 0 ppm)
8. Add some pre-quarantined bonded clown fish
9. Closely monitor all parameters and ensure stability for at least a month adding inverts as necessary
10. Add quarantined fish one by one starting with a gobi waiting multiple weeks to months between

 

[Fish Fan]

Thank you all for your detailed help!

Alright there is a ton of good information here, but there is some conflicting so I want to layout a general plan to make sure I am on the right track.

@BeanAnimal, @Fish Fan, @MnFish1 or @edsbeaker are you able to see if there are any major issues with it?

Plan:
1. Stop dosing bottle bacteria, but possibly add a live rock from a LFS
2. Wait till currently added Am fully converts to Nitrate
3. Dose to 1-1.5 ppm Am (I know the concentrations or if I should dose again are in contention)
4. Wait till Am is fully converted. The goal would be 1-2 ppm within 24 hours, but I should be careful to not overdose to reach that
5. Test Nitrate and water change if necessary to get below 20 ppm (10ppm?)
6. Turn on lights. Add some very hearty LPS corals, but do not buy anything expensive or go overboard
7. Monitor for algae, diatoms, and cyano bacteria and add inverts to target specific issues as they arise (no sentient life before ammonia is 0 ppm)
8. Add some pre-quarantined bonded clown fish
9. Closely monitor all parameters and ensure stability for at least a month adding inverts as necessary
10. Add quarantined fish one by one starting with a gobi waiting multiple weeks to months between

I'm going to differ to the other knowledgable reefers you tagged above, I'm sure they'll be able to offer you some help here.

I did mean to mention before, that as far as inexpensive corals to try, I have ordered now three times from SaltCritters and I've been really happy with pretty much everything I've received. Their frags are a bit small, but they are priced right starting at about $5.00. They do sales of like 50% to 60% off seemingly every other day lol!

https://saltcritters.com/

Good luck!

 

[BeanAnimal]

1. Stop dosing bottle bacteria, but possibly add a live rock from a LFS

Fine

2. Wait till currently added Am fully converts to Nitrate

Stop worrying about testing for Nitrate or Nitrate -- Processing ammonia is all that matters.

3. Dose to 1-1.5 ppm Am (I know the concentrations or if I should dose again are in contention)
4. Wait till Am is fully converted. The goal would be 1-2 ppm within 24 hours, but I should be careful to not overdose to reach that

Approaching zero - does not have to be zero. So headed that direction is what you are looking for.

5. Test Nitrate and water change if necessary to get below 20 ppm (10ppm?)

Don't worry about Nitrate. If you feel better getting it below 20ppm, fine. But it doesn't matter, as long as it is not 1000 ppm....

6. Turn on lights. Add some very hearty LPS corals, but do not buy anything expensive or go overboard

Start with something hardy - LPS or soft, but not something invasive that you will regret - avoid things like mushrooms, xenia, GSP, zoanthids or kenya tree. Leathers can be rather invasive too.

If you ultimately want an SPS tank, then start with hardy SPS. Some montiporas are eas - both branching and plating. Avoid pocillipora, it is invasive.

7. Monitor for algae, diatoms, and cyano bacteria and add inverts to target specific issues as they arise (no sentient life before ammonia is 0 ppm)

You will almost cetainly end up with cyano and diatoms. 0 PPM is relative.

Free Ammonia Calculator

Aquarium calculator; Estimate the free (un-ionized) ammonia (NH3) concentration, given the total ammonia concentration.

www.hamzasreef.com

Your test kits measure both NH3 and NH4. You only care about NH3 being at toxic levels.

8. Add some pre-quarantined bonded clown fish

You can't go wrong with QT fish or captive bred -- Biota has wonderful fish. Though they are tiny. You will want an acclimation box one way or the other. Hit up @Dr. Reef and see what he can do for you.

9. Closely monitor all parameters and ensure stability for at least a month adding inverts as necessary

You can add inverts as soon as you start to get nuisance algea for them to eat.

10. Add quarantined fish one by one starting with a gobi waiting multiple weeks to months between

Slow never hurts anything. It gives you time to learn and makes mistakes far less costly. I have done this for 3 decades and still don't like adding multiple fish at once.

 

[MnFish1]

Thank you all for your detailed help!

Alright there is a ton of good information here, but there is some conflicting so I want to layout a general plan to make sure I am on the right track.

@BeanAnimal, @Fish Fan, @MnFish1 or @edsbeaker are you able to see if there are any major issues with it?

Plan:
1. Stop dosing bottle bacteria, but possibly add a live rock from a LFS

Depending on what type of live rock (i.e with a lot of life on it, as compared to bare rock - I would not add it until ammonia is 0 if life is present.

2. Wait till currently added Am fully converts to Nitrate

Some of the ammonia will be taken up by things in the tank (i.e bacteria/algae, etc) - so - you can't tell when this happens.

3. Dose to 1-1.5 ppm Am (I know the concentrations or if I should dose again are in contention)

Which protocol are you using - what do they suggest - thats what I would do

4. Wait till Am is fully converted. The goal would be 1-2 ppm within 24 hours, but I should be careful to not overdose to reach that

Correct - the drop method with Dr. Tims may not be accurate if drop sizes are different

5. Test Nitrate and water change if necessary to get below 20 ppm (10ppm?)

You can do this

6. Turn on lights. Add some very hearty LPS corals, but do not buy anything expensive or go overboard

You can do this as well

7. Monitor for algae, diatoms, and cyano bacteria and add inverts to target specific issues as they arise (no sentient life before ammonia is 0 ppm)

Yes

8. Add some pre-quarantined bonded clown fish

Or another easy fish - like damsels, etc. You do not need to add clowns necessarily.

9. Closely monitor all parameters and ensure stability for at least a month adding inverts as necessary

I would tend to add inverts (CUC) earlier.

10. Add quarantined fish one by one starting with a gobi waiting multiple weeks to months between

I do not think you need to wait weeks to months. I would just make sure the fish you initially add - and if you decide to add corals - that they are doing well. If thats 2 weeks - add another fish. If you're having problems back off.

 

[MnFish1]

Could you maybe offer a quick idea of why you prefer another ammonia source to bottled ammonium chloride? I'm sincerely asking

1. The dose of ammonia may be incorrect using the bottled ammonia. It would be best if one could measure/use the correct ammonia dosage. In my experience with this, the ammonia is quite a bit higher than expected.
2. There are multiple products out there (including - I believe a Dr. Tim's product) that has a protocol for adding fish on the first day. - I think this is easier, and as good.
3. Bottled ammonia is fine - but - if you read the number of threads that are using it - but not following the protocol - it becomes an issue of ease of cycling.

 

[Fish Fan]

1. The dose of ammonia may be incorrect using the bottled ammonia. It would be best if one could measure/use the correct ammonia. In my experience with this, the ammonia is quite a bit higher than expected.
2. There are multiple products out there (including - I believe a Dr. Tim's product) that has a protocol for adding fish on the first day. - I think this is easier, and as good.
3. Bottled ammonia is fine - but - if you read the number of threads that are using it - but not following the protocol - it becomes an issue of ease of cycling.

Thank you for elaborating, that's very helpful!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why is it that nitrites are not a concern? Is there something with the water chemistry that makes it not an issue?

Exactly. The 19,000 ppm of chloride is competing for the same transporter to get into the animals, such as a fish. Think of it like people getting on a train. Everyone gets on where there are 8 people in the station. But with 20,000 people in that same station, the chance that one pickpocket in the crowd gets onto the train is quite low.

 

[foamboy]

Don’t forget to add copepods.

 

[Fish Fan]

Don’t forget to add copepods.

Thanks for joining the conversation

 

[JohnNYC8]

Thankyou for the super detailed reply.

I will be careful with coral soon after the cycle then. I may go with a few easy ones like you suggested that I am ok if I lose them and wait a few months before fully stocking the tank.

I will look into pre-quarantined fish and try to start building up some quarantine infrastructure of my own. Thank you for confirming my suspicions with the tang. Will wait till I get some peaceful fish established first before adding them.
Could I run an initial stocking list by you. Again I want to start a bit understocked:
2x Clowns
1x Watchman Gobbi
1x Dart Fish
1x Bengali Cardinal
1x Royal Gramma (was told that these guys dont play too nice by a LFS so I am on the fence)
1x Lawnmower Blenny
Later on:
1x Some type of bristlemouth tang
1x 6 line Wrasse

Are there any CUC inverts that I should plan to add sooner rather than later or should I just add fully based on need.

I’d add copepods to get their population going. You only have to add them once to get the population started. There are some great pod and phyto sellers on the forum here. A jar of galaxy pods from Algae Barn will add 5 types in one shot. They’re the little unsung heroes of the CUC.

 

[Fish Fan]

I’d add copepods to get their population going. You only have to add them once to get the population started. There are some great pod and phyto sellers on the forum here. A jar of galaxy pods from Algae Barn will add 5 types in one shot. They’re the little unsung heroes of the CUC.

Many would suggest that 'pods will come on their own, and that there's no need to buy them, but certainly you can add some if you would prefer to do it that way; dealer's choice

 

[BeanAnimal]

Also many of the species you buy don’t reproduce well in our systems. For most tanks, there is no need to purchase, as copepods that do reproduce will come in on coral, rock, algae, etc.

Some people purchase them to supplement fish that heavily feed on them. @Reef By Steele is a sponsor and family owned business. He sells pods and phyto. Hit him up if you have questions.

 

[Chickadeedeedee]

Thanks everyone for your help! I will keep trucking along with my cycle and hopefully add some life in a few weeks. Will make sure to take it nice and slow. I am seeing my first nitrates just creeping into the tank so the cycle is going great!

 

[Fish Fan]

Thanks everyone for your help! I will keep trucking along with my cycle and hopefully add some life in a few weeks. Will make sure to take it nice and slow. I am seeing my first nitrates just creeping into the tank so the cycle is going great!

Please post back if you're still having trouble, you have some really great reefers watching your thread, and I don't mean me