Paletta's 2013 LED Experimental ?

[427HISS]

To be honest, I have not watched all the video's on Mikes 75g, but when I read the posts on the link below, it did raise a question on LED lights. Several people saying it's his using of pavers to anchoring the rock towers and husbandry.

This is also from back in 2013, so know the technology has changed and more & more people have expeirence with these lights and company's performing studies etc.....

I like and respect Mike, and I'm not coming down on him, I just want to understand the LED's today, as I'm not sold on these lights, from any,.....company. It's almost 50/-50 with me with them versus halides. If I could keep my displays in check with temps without using a chiller, I may go back to halides with either T5's or LED's.

Although that was four years ago, how do you feel about Mike's conclusion, not only what happened to his corals but his non-full spectrum LED's ?

What are your thoughts about LED's back then, versus now ?

Has this type of lighting evolved to the point that corals are happy & growing very well, if so, why ?

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blo...-reef-tank-with-mike-paletta-and-sanjay-joshi

 

[427HISS]

Also, is there a part 4 of the video ?

 

[mcarroll]

I will check out some of the vid if I get time today, but the proposition that LED's somehow have inherent problems borders on absurd.

The Check
A simple check is whether you can find any tanks growing corals with LED's.

If LED's were somehow a problem, then you would be unable to find any examples of successful coral tanks.

If someone spends even just a few minutes digging, they can find out that some folks even had no problem growing corals under "plain" :rolleyes: blue+white LED setups – so it's been a while since the issue was really put to bed: LED's present no problems for growing corals.

The Other Side
The other side of that check is that it's also true that anyone can fail with any technology for a wide range of reasons – so blaming the LED's also has a tinge of denial to me. Like blaming your salt mix. ;)

Just 2¢.

 

[mcarroll]

I agree with the bulk of the comments on the AA.com posting. (Where's my "thumbs-down" Emoji?!?)

 

[427HISS]

For the most part, I don't side with Mike, as there's a lot,....of people that have great sucess growing any and all corals under LED's.
But at the same time, many have also had issues under them, and just not small tank hobbiests, but public aquariums, college's to very large, private tanks.

As far as sps's changing colors under LED's, does this also happen with halides ?

Has there been any studies on what color spectrums, soft, LPS and SPS's actually need and don't,......need ?

When it comes to full spectrum LED's, what colors are we supposed to dial in ?
People say look at your corals, they'll tell you, but for most people, how do we really tell ?
I mean more,..... white, blue, red and which hue, how much for each color ?

I don't think most of us say say.

I mean, a friend that manages a LFS has four strips of only blue & white lighting over a 65g tank, and the SPS's are thriving,.....and are beautiful purple, blue, green etc, and have not, changed colors. So I'm wondering if people (including Mike) are confusing themselves saying it has to be the light, but actually it could be trace elements, either with the brand of salt mix or the brand of additives, doesing used, or even if they use tap water. There are so many,...... variables that can effect corals.

I do like that some people like at Vivid Aquariums are testing different types of lighting.
They won't say much, as their waiting for a year to really see results.

I also don't like it when fish swim around the tank, and change color !
One wrasse of ours chages in color,and it's only a 29g. I have a 55g and I'm using Maspect's, and for the most part, the colors are better, but stiil get some color change and some spot lighting along with some disco effect.

Under halide alone or with added blue, you don't see this happening. We see the real,...colors.
I hate it when home tanks and business's put a huge amount of blue spectrum on their corals, especially clams, just to show off or sell, and when we put them in our tanks, the color difference is not the same so we're disapointed. Under halide, there's very little of change.

At this time, I don't think LED's are their yet.......for our eye's, but mostly corals. When corals change from their natural color,we are not supplying them what they need. Will they survive, yes and no, but that's proof to me that the light spectrum and amount of each, is wrong.

I don't think,.... I' ll go back to halide, but I don't beleive the LED technology is here yet.

Lke I said before with full spectrum, how mucb of each hue of color, do corals need, or do we even know ?
What ever color's that halides put out, they've supplied the hue's needed for corals, for many, many years.

At tis time, I can't say that about LED's.

Anyway, sorry Mike, I don't think it's a true evaluation to blame the lighting.

 

[Bpb]

Mike is a legend in the hobby and has achieved success and understanding most of us never will. However...simple fact is ive personally seen with my own eyes, many many many amazing sps dominant tanks also loaded with massive acans and chalices all totally grown out and maintained with AI Sol blues, which Paletta used on his 75 gallon experiment. There are also countless examples online with a simple search. He blamed the LEDs mostly as being short on spectrum and said basically that LEDs were ineffective until the gen3 radion pros were released (his own words), which just isn't true.

I don't personally even use LEDs. But even the early blue and white AI sols were capable of growing just about everything. It's been done. His failure on that tank was unrelated to the lighting, or he simply didn't acclimate everything correctly

 

[mcarroll]

That was a great post with questions and observations that I think are excellent to post.

Let me single out a few points and "pile on". :)

These first two go together:

it's also true that anyone can fail with any technology for a wide range of reasons

many have also had issues under them, and just not small tank hobbiests, but public aquariums, college's to very large, private tanks.

Nobody is above that rule....anyone can fail at any time.

As far as sps's changing colors under LED's, does this also happen with halides ?

It's semi-ironic that Sanjay did the most famous study on this – essentially comparing 10,000K and 20,000K growth and coloration. And yes they do change color. Sometimes very dramatically.

Has there been any studies on what color spectrums, soft, LPS and SPS's actually need and don't,......need ?

That's not how it works.

Consider the source and you can see plainly what you should be emulating.

Sunlight is a little ugly in it's native blue/blue-green as it's found at coral-depth so we lighten it up with some daylight.

Once this daylight level reaches a point where you are satisfied you can see the tank well, it's done.

Don't compare with anyone else's tank....even if they've got it right, it's only "right" according to their sensibilities.

Your "right" will do just as well.

When it comes to full spectrum LED's, what colors are we supposed to dial in ?
People say look at your corals, they'll tell you, but for most people, how do we really tell ?
I mean more,..... white, blue, red and which hue, how much for each color ?

You have sort-of hit the nail on the head.

When it comes to "full spectrum" this is the first thing I'd like you to think about:
“Full Spectrum” – The Internet Reefer’s Decoder Ring

Once you're past that, you can start taking in some good info from the rest of the Light section of my research links.

For example:

• Novel Adaptive Photosynthetic Characteristics of Mesophotic Symbiotic Microalgae within the Reef-Building Coral, Stylophora pistillata
• The in situ light microenvironment of corals
• Ocean Optics by Curtis Mobley

 

[MaiReef]

Loved watching them, but IMHO the LEDs were not the problem. Sanjay didn't think so either, for someone with much more knowledge than me.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

full spectrum is a sales term. an ati c+ is full spectrum as is a radium MH.
like hd leds tvs we have only just begun.
the best picture is on a crt btw. and crt will take any picture size.

 

[427HISS]

For example:

• Novel Adaptive Photosynthetic Characteristics of Mesophotic Symbiotic Microalgae within the Reef-Building Coral, Stylophora pistillata
• The in situ light microenvironment of corals
• Ocean Optics by Curtis Mobley

I may look up the writings, but I'm not a intelligent man, some due to a brain injury as a 2 yr. old so I'm sure I won't understand it all, but that's why I come here to learn from a vast amount informantion from various minds and different intellects, so if I don't understand a high intelligent writing, I surf for someone that I do,.....understand. lol.....(in laymens terms)

Like red, we know plants of most types need it, but in the ocean, red is the first to loose in 5' of water. So corals that are exposed outgoing tides, including clams, really need full spectrum and red light, but in out tanks, red can grow nuisance algae.

So how much red should we use ?

In our relitivly shallow home tanks of 1.5' to 2.5', should the red go all the to the bottom ?

Corals on the reefs that we have in our tanks that are 5' in debth that loose the red spectrum, do we want yellow and blue to take over ?

A lot of people don't like the yellow that halides put out, prefering pure white of LED's, but is that wanted/nedded by corals.

Blue is the most usable of all corals, but at what spectrum and how much ?

So those like us want to understand all,.....the requirments that corals need, not just guess and get by.

We have information of all reefs, as to what corals live at what depth, but in our aquariums, we only go down say, 2.5', so most of our corals are placed where we like them, or most SPS' on top, all others middle or on the bottom, but our light is pretty much all the same, top to bottom.

We don't/can't look at even very large aquariums, and see the difference in colors like we do when diving or photographing/video in reefs. The amount of light of course, decreaces the deeper we go, so corals that live in low light, should be placed on the bottom of tanks and little light, but we don't.

So my point is, with being able to adjust our LED systems by a huge amount in spectrum in about every color, what do corals need and what versus what we like.

What percentage of the various colors should we use ?

I'm sure every LED manufacture are different in percentages and spectrums, so what do we do ? Who do we trust ?

Back in the 90's, I used 440watts of VHO's and all my corals looked and grew great. I only had a halide for about 2 months, so that was not long enough for testing.

I heard a reefer say, "I'll do it the way I want, if they die, I'll just get another one".
I just about decked him.

 

[Bpb]

Read the ecotech coral lab white paper. Might not be the MOST scientific, but it's absolutely the first place I would start when determining what channel and color percentages seem to produce the most consistently positive results

 

[Bpb]

Also...the reason more scientific studies haven't been done on what spectrum "sps" need or "lps" need or "softies" need is because those are in no way scientifically accepted classifications, and you'll find "lps" in shallow water just as often as "sps" in deeper waters and softies all around. There is not any recognized rule on polyp size and light requirements. That is a hobbyist created generalization that may carry SOME correlations to care levels but by no means can you write a book or make a rule on it. Heavy light in the 400-500 nanometer range is appropriate for ALL corals, and many found in deeper waters cannot tolerate red as well. Those found in shallower waters have adapted to it, and are often already heavily bleached and brown as a natural color. In nature they also feed heterotrophically ALOT more than they do in our tanks. So that makes a big difference as well. There is no single "natural color" beyond what you find in the wild. Royal blue LEDs are no more unnatural than 6500k metal halides. They're artificially created photons that aren't the sun. Corals are just able to display different colors based on environmental cues. Not a lot unlike most plant life. Doesn't indicate anything cruel or unfair is happening to them