Ph Issues... Performed Randy's Aeration Test....

[XNavyDiver]

Man, i feel your pain like no tomorrow. i've legit done all i can to chase that dang number myself. tried everything from new probes, different brands, different brands of calibration fluid, micro bubble, fresh air line from outside going into the DUAL co2 scrubber, tablespoon of RO water in the co2 canisters, different brands of media... everything. still 7.75 lights off 8.0 at peak... BUT ITS STEADY, CONSISTENT... so i've let go of it and let the tank do its thing. all of my other parameters are on point, SPS dom tank and the colors are full and vibrant, and my fish are happy, healthy, and beautiful. so as long as you bring it within "range", even if its at the low end. ride it out. let your tank stabilize and tell you where its happy.

That is the sump and dosing system of a full on OCD control freak, and I love it. I applaud your organizational skilz. Well done sir!

 

[hart24601]

I would second using chaeto if you have the room. I have done scrubbers and outside lines and it worked well for me. However on this new system I am running a kessil h380 and am having a hard time getting my pH down. I have a thread about it, I wanted to go skimmerless but just couldn't due to high pH.

Of course you have to have nutrients for the chaeto to grow and a very strong light, but there are others out there cheaper than the kessil - just make sure it's pushing some serious power!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks Randy... So in essence Using fresh air from outside, scrubbing it to remove Co2 from air, would be even better then the aeration test with putting airstone into cup of tank water outside???

Yes. Inside air might have 600 ppm CO2 (could be 400-1000+), outside will be around 400 ppm, and scrubbed air will be something less than what is going into to, so less than 400 ppm.

 

[ericegg01]

The test will tell you if you have a CO2 issue, if the test "failed" inside water low PH versus outside water on-par then it's a pretty good indicator you have CO2 problem. This is first thing you should do if you suspect you have this problem. IMHO.

Running a line outside with scrubber is ideal since the moisture from outside air will help prolong the soda lime consuming the CO2 (if I understand it correctly). Different systems will get different results but after using the soda lime my PH problems went away. I have to agree with Randy by saying it's not about how much air you're drawing in.

 

[Js.Aqua.Project]

After reading through can I ask a very simple and sometimes overlooked (series of) question(s)?

I noticed that you are using your Apex probe to get your readings, when was the last time it was calibrated? Did you use the "Automatic" or manual? (I find manual to be slightly more tedious but it does seem to achieve a better/consistent reading). Have you cross checked your probe against a test like a Red Sea pH test?

 

[bubbaque]

My ph use to be 7.7 with a hose attached from my skimmer to outside air. I installed a co2 scrubber and my ph went up to 7.8 with lights out to max of 8 when lights are on. I noticed I had a ton of water movement on the top of my water surface, which I believe was allowing co2 in my home to saturate the water from high co2 levels in my home. I lowered my power heads in the tank to have little surface agitation. Now my ph on the low side is 8 and at the end of light cycle is 8.2.

If your pulling outside air to a high co2 home, lower your surface agitation and see if it helps you like it did for me.

 

[DarthSimon]

And that's exactly what Randy was saying! There's a competition going on!!

Great point, will try this tonight and see. It's funny because going back I thought too increase o2 by means of higher surface agitation, never thinking the above. Now that we know I have high Co2 makes perfect sense. Scrubber and new skimmer is on the way. May try Scrubber with my current skimmer and see how my numbers pan out.

 

[DarthSimon]

After reading through can I ask a very simple and sometimes overlooked (series of) question(s)?

I noticed that you are using your Apex probe to get your readings, when was the last time it was calibrated? Did you use the "Automatic" or manual? (I find manual to be slightly more tedious but it does seem to achieve a better/consistent reading). Have you cross checked your probe against a test like a Red Sea pH test?

Missed this post. Yes I've calibrated probe a few times. It's spot on... I only do manual calibration.
After calibration I switch back and forth to 7.0 and 10.0 solutions. They both read dead on 7 and 10. Within +-.01

 

[bubbaque]

It took a day or so with less surface agitation for the numbers to steady out, so give it some time.

 

[nbagnardi]

That is the sump and dosing system of a full on OCD control freak, and I love it. I applaud your organizational skilz. Well done sir!

hahaha thank you sir!

 

[jason2459]

I would not assume more air pull is going to solve the issue.

IME air draw alone is only part of the picture and seems to be not a major one at that.

From my skimmer review thread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/mtc-mvx-skimmer-review.252436/page-9#post-3671848

The mazzei injector is used to mix air and water under pressure together which it does so very well. A beckett the same principle but uses a different style of injector as seen in the link I provided above and does take some more maintenance to keep clean. A mazzei injector is much more basic then a beckett. The under pressure part for both a mazzei and a beckett I believe makes them better at aeration then a standard needle wheel skimmer that will just chop the air up as it is passed into the water flow with no pressure. The needle wheel skimmer will pull more air but IME does not do as good a job at injecting that air into the water.


My trial with the Mag 18 and the mazzei 684 and 784 proved that to me. I was pulling out just as much and more skimmate with the Mag 18 that only pulled about 12-14 scfh of air compared to my Aquamaxx EM300 that was pulling in ~38scfh.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/mtc-mvx-skimmer-review.252436/page-4


Also, with the Mag 18 at 12-14scfh I was I maintaining my pH just as effectively as the Aquamaxx EM300 at that 38scfh. Pretty astounding to me and was a shock when I started this whole adventure with the MVX skimmer. Now that I'm pulling well over 20scfh with my mazzei I barely have to pull any air through my CO2 scrubber and I'm producing 6x as much skimmate then I was at 38scfh with the Aquamaxx.


So, air draw alone does not paint the whole picture I don't think. Dwell time is very important and how it's injected along with a balance of neck size. I really don't believe that the shape of the body at all effects anything or any kind of bubble plate or anything else that added to the inside of a skimmer. Just air, properly mixing, small enough bubbles, enough time in water, a clear neck to work it's way up, and stuff to attach to a bubble is all that's needed. Get those things right and you have one heck of a skimmer.

 

[Js.Aqua.Project]

Missed this post. Yes I've calibrated probe a few times. It's spot on... I only do manual calibration.
After calibration I switch back and forth to 7.0 and 10.0 solutions. They both read dead on 7 and 10. Within +-.01

It is no problem. I think people would be surprised how many of our local reefers that were freaking out over pH levels from a probe and the probe just needed to be calibrated.

 

[DarthSimon]

It took a day or so with less surface agitation for the numbers to steady out, so give it some time.

Yep will do....

 

[nbagnardi]

It took a day or so with less surface agitation for the numbers to steady out, so give it some time.

Would you say this is too much surface agitation?

 

[nbagnardi]

Would you say this is too much surface agitation?

Disregard @bubbaque cant load the video from my cell. I'll do it later when I get home to laptop

 

[PSXerholic]

Hey Guys,
So I have a 3 month old Red Sea Reefer 250, with Mixed reef and fish.... Have mostly LPS, Softies, and a 2 Small Pieces of SPS. My corals seem to be happy and healthy. Tank Parms are as follows:

PH 7.7(3am) to 7.9(6pm End Photo Period)
Kh 10-11
Calcium 440-450
Nitrate 0-.01
Phosphate .03
Magnesium 1350.

I feel my Ph should be higher. I have never had a tank in the past with 7.7
Using Full Blown Apex System with DOS. Running 2 Part Bionic Dosing all Day 25ml of each
Seems to be my dosing number keep above Kh and Calcium Stable with current coral load.

So performed Aeration test from Randy's ReefKeeper Page. Took cup of tank water 7.8 outside house and ran air stone for 60 minutes. Brought back in house and dipped my Ph probe in cup. Got 8.1 reading. I then took another cup of tank water and and did same test inside house, inside my cabinet close to where sump is. After hour Ph went from 7.86 to 7.88 with Infused (Airstone) under the tank house air.

So according to test, tank aeration has no benifit. Co2 issue present....
Problem is I ran an a fresh airline from outside house directly into my Skimmer. Icecap 120. According to my Apex, pre airline my lows during dark periods at night were about 7.65 . Highs during photo period 7.7. Post airline is lows 7.75 to and highs are 7.9 to 7.94. So a .1 Difference??

Am I doing something wrong? Is it possible the skimmer isn't strong enough?
Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Steve

Steve,
I see you ruled out already a lot of stuff!
So get me an idea what you do at the minute?

You do scrubbing already, correct?
And you have used a bit of Soda ash but that does seem not to help longer then for a few hours, right?

There is another problem with your tank likely, I have fixed on a few tanks including my own one, that was a successful solution to tanks with Low PH where scrubbing and Soda Ash, high Alk and all that did not effectively worked !!!!
Would love to see if your tank is another one of those.

Let me know

-Andre

 

[litenyaup]

Man, i feel your pain like no tomorrow. i've legit done all i can to chase that dang number myself. tried everything from new probes, different brands, different brands of calibration fluid, micro bubble, fresh air line from outside going into the DUAL co2 scrubber, tablespoon of RO water in the co2 canisters, different brands of media... everything. still 7.75 lights off 8.0 at peak... BUT ITS STEADY, CONSISTENT... so i've let go of it and let the tank do its thing. all of my other parameters are on point, SPS dom tank and the colors are full and vibrant, and my fish are happy, healthy, and beautiful. so as long as you bring it within "range", even if its at the low end. ride it out. let your tank stabilize and tell you where its happy.

Clean build.....what return pump are you running?

 

[nbagnardi]

Clean build.....what return pump are you running?

It's an Ecotech Vectra, M1. Just waiting on the release of the Neptune COR and the stats on it and I'll probably swap it out.

 

[DarthSimon]

Hey Guys,
So I installed a much more powerful protein skimmer tonight, Reef Octopus Regal 150sss. As well as Co2 Scrubber inline with incoming fresh air from outside.
I started the install around 6pm, and ended fully around 8pm. My Ph pre Install at was around 7.93 ; 2 hours later my apex is telling me I am at 8.03. I guess I won't know if its the skimmer or scrubber doing the raising, but something is working well.... Well see what happens over night...

Thoughts, concerns, prayers? lol

 

[nbagnardi]

Hey Guys,
So I installed a much more powerful protein skimmer tonight, Reef Octopus Regal 150sss. As well as Co2 Scrubber inline with incoming fresh air from outside.
I started the install around 6pm, and ended fully around 8pm. My Ph pre Install at was around 7.93 ; 2 hours later my apex is telling me I am at 8.03. I guess I won't know if its the skimmer or scrubber doing the raising, but something is working well.... Well see what happens over night...

Thoughts, concerns, prayers? lol

Keep an eye on your key 3, ALK, CAL, MAG... a higher ph will definitely increase the tanks usage of each.