PLEASE STOP USING TTM-IT'S BARBARIC

[Scarybo]

You are reading one part of the experiment - I was reading another. The part you quote above refers to how many fish develop immunity after challenge (not all of them did - but 82% did). We were talking about the 'duration of immune response' which is later in the paper. I agree with you - not every fish that gets ich has 'full immunity' but that wasn't the point. The point was - if they have it, is it 'real immunity - not 'resistance' as you put it, and how long does it last.

The second part of the experiment was they took 12 documented IMMUNE fish and challenged them at 1.5, 3 and 6 months. Table 15 in the paper shows the results . The conclusions (for fish that have immunity)

1. Immunity lasts 'at least 6 months' with no further exposure to the parasite - but probably decreases from there without exposure.
2. The group challenged at 1.5 months had a mean of 2.6 trophonts (the median was 0) compared to control of 262 (suggesting there immunity is developing)
3. The group challenged at 3 months had ZERO trophonts after challenge (assumed to be fully protected)
4. The group challenged at 6 months showed a slight decrease in immunity but still enough to fight off infection.

In the experiment quoted above there was full immunity in the 3 month group. (Quoting from the paper.
Very low parasite levels (%PEI S 0.'2%), indicating a high. degree of sustained immune protection, were observed in fish held for up to 3 months, with full protection being recorded in 60% at 1.5 months and 100% at 3 months.

what that means scientifically, to me, is that in THIS experiment, with this variety of fish, somewhere between 1.5 and 3 months the immune system is fully able to protect the fish (in the absence of repeat exposure), and sometime between 3 months and 6 months that full protection starts to drop. Remembering the key fact - they started with immune fish selected for the experiment.

And by the way I already mentioned one time that I wouldn't change quarantine methods, etc etc for new fish. But if I had a tank with fish that suffered an ich outbreak and survived, I am not sure I would take them all out and treat them with medication after the fact. I would look for any that had even 1 spot and treat them perhaps. I wouldn't necessarily add new fish for several months. Fortunately, I have not had the problem of ich in the tank yet.

I understand what you are stating but again I feel you are taking this paper and making assumptions. I agree that fish can develop an immune response to the parasite. That response however isnt permanent. You are taking the observation that they found zero trophonts after the 3 month challenge to mean that a tank would now be ich free. That is a jump I cannot make. The fish in this experiment we "documented immune" . They were kept in a hyposaline condition with no stress. They were exposed to 5000 theronts. That number could be extremely low depending on the strain." The number of tomites produced by each tomont varies with the strain of Cryptocaryon irritans from less than 200 to more than 1,000 (Diggles & Adlard, 1997)" That isnt indicative of a normal reef tank. This is interesting data to read but it is only an experiment on immunity in a very controlled situation. I would not take this data an extrapolate it to how to deal with an ich outbreak in my tank. I would treat the fish and allow the tank a fallow period. Some fish show no spots or symptoms. I do know if one occupant shows symptoms, that all occupants have been exposed. There has been no data that shows in a reef tank immunity means the parasite has no food source and dies off completely.

 

[Jim C]

Is it getting hot in here, or is it just me?

 

[Brew12]

There have been multiple studies done regarding the ability of Cryptocaryon to remain in a system full of immune fish. I have seen varying results from the system being clear in a month all of the way to the system not being clear until the 4 year mark. There is some evidence that the species of fish being studied and the specific strains of Crypto being studied cause significant variation.

 

[Humblefish]

I'm chuckling here because as difficult as some claim quarantining is, trying to figure out fish immunity is even more confusing. People can sometimes make life so hard on themselves just by being stubborn. I'm not poking fun, because I used to be the exact same way.

Folks, just do yourself a favor and QT from Day 1. Even if that means just sticking the fish in a holding tank (no meds) for 30 days. Make the holding tank look like a Mini-Me of your DT if you don't like the bare bottom, rockless QT concept. Just have an empty tank (and all equipment) on standby in the garage in case a fish needs medicating.

Odds are, most people will eventually still get Crypto and/or flukes in their DT by just doing passive observation. But at least you should never get one of the "tank killers" i.e. velvet, brook or a nasty gram negative bacterial infection in your DT if you QT for 30 days. Worst case scenario, the infected fish dies in holding, but at least your "core group" of fish in the DT are protected from whatever killed him.

If you get flukes in the DT, Prazipro is reef safe.

If you get ich, go fallow or then is the time to research all about acquired immunity.

 

[Scarybo]

Is it getting hot in here, or is it just me?

Naw. I just love to debate. It makes me learn. I can always disagree without being disagreeable. Unless you ask my wife. Then I'm just being a stubborn....(censored)

 

[MnFish1]

I understand what you are stating but again I feel you are taking this paper and making assumptions. I agree that fish can develop an immune response to the parasite. That response however isnt permanent. You are taking the observation that they found zero trophonts after the 3 month challenge to mean that a tank would now be ich free. That is a jump I cannot make. The fish in this experiment we "documented immune" . They were kept in a hyposaline condition with no stress. They were exposed to 5000 theronts. That number could be extremely low depending on the strain." The number of tomites produced by each tomont varies with the strain of Cryptocaryon irritans from less than 200 to more than 1,000 (Diggles & Adlard, 1997)" That isnt indicative of a normal reef tank. This is interesting data to read but it is only an experiment on immunity in a very controlled situation. I would not take this data an extrapolate it to how to deal with an ich outbreak in my tank. I would treat the fish and allow the tank a fallow period. Some fish show no spots or symptoms. I do know if one occupant shows symptoms, that all occupants have been exposed. There has been no data that shows in a reef tank immunity means the parasite has no food source and dies off completely.

I said - I wouldn't change my quarantine methods based on the paper. To me it was merely an interesting discussion. I also would suggest - that the hypothesis I put forward is likely to be true if the results of this study are accurate. Because, the more hits the fish gets of the parasite, the longer the immunity lasts - and the stronger the immunity becomes. Meaning that each successive wave should be less - and eventually the ich will be gone just on a statistical basis - and then the immunity will wain.

And you're right - it is 'only an experiment in a very controlled situation' - but you were the person asking for science, not opinion. Experiments are done in very controlled situations.

Lastly (and it is an interesting discussion), I did NOT say that because there were 0 trophonts after the 3 month challenge that there was no ich in the tank. What I said is at some point between 1.5 months and 3 months immunity becomes 'full' and the fish do not shed trophonts. Somewhere between 3 months and 6 months that immunity starts to drop. Since the measurements were only done at 1.5, 3, 6 month timeframes its hard to say exactly how long 'full immunit' lasts, ie it doesn't start at 3 months and end 1 day before 6 months. But it is theoretically possible that it would be long enough to be considered a fallow tank. This is especially true given the fact that the immune group had 99% less shedding of trophonts at 1.5 months, 100% less at 3 months and 95% less than the control group at 6 months.

 

[Scarybo]

I'm chuckling here because as difficult as some claim quarantining is, trying to figure out fish immunity is even more confusing. People can sometimes make life so hard on themselves just by being stubborn. I'm not poking fun, because I used to be the exact same way.

Folks, just do yourself a favor and QT from Day 1. Even if that means just sticking the fish in a holding tank (no meds) for 30 days. Make the holding tank look like a Mini-Me of your DT if you don't like the bare bottom, rockless QT concept. Just have an empty tank (and all equipment) on standby in the garage in case a fish needs medicating.

Odds are, most people will eventually still get Crypto and/or flukes in their DT by just doing passive observation. But at least you should never get one of the "tank killers" i.e. velvet, brook or a nasty gram negative bacterial infection in your DT if you QT for 30 days. Worst case scenario, the infected fish dies in holding, but at least your "core group" of fish in the DT are protected from whatever killed him.

If you get flukes in the DT, Prazipro is reef safe.

If you get ich, go fallow or then is the time to research all about acquired immunity.

I've learned the benefits of QT the hard way. Ich was easy. Brook and Velvet were ugly. When my daughter cried because I lost her favorite fish, I decided to never try adding fish without QT. It will eventually catch up . Always in my experience.

 

[MnFish1]

I'm chuckling here because as difficult as some claim quarantining is, trying to figure out fish immunity is even more confusing. People can sometimes make life so hard on themselves just by being stubborn. I'm not poking fun, because I used to be the exact same way.

Folks, just do yourself a favor and QT from Day 1. Even if that means just sticking the fish in a holding tank (no meds) for 30 days. Make the holding tank look like a Mini-Me of your DT if you don't like the bare bottom, rockless QT concept. Just have an empty tank (and all equipment) on standby in the garage in case a fish needs medicating.

Odds are, most people will eventually still get Crypto and/or flukes in their DT by just doing passive observation. But at least you should never get one of the "tank killers" i.e. velvet, brook or a nasty gram negative bacterial infection in your DT if you QT for 30 days. Worst case scenario, the infected fish dies in holding, but at least your "core group" of fish in the DT are protected from whatever killed him.

If you get flukes in the DT, Prazipro is reef safe.

If you get ich, go fallow or then is the time to research all about acquired immunity.

Well - I got my ideas from your post from 2016 @Humblefish - so this discussion is your fault

 

[Humblefish]

Well - I got my ideas from your post from 2016 @Humblefish - so this discussion is your fault

Our OP seems to have disappeared on us.

 

[Scarybo]

I said - I wouldn't change my quarantine methods based on the paper. To me it was merely an interesting discussion. I also would suggest - that the hypothesis I put forward is likely to be true if the results of this study are accurate. Because, the more hits the fish gets of the parasite, the longer the immunity lasts - and the stronger the immunity becomes. Meaning that each successive wave should be less - and eventually the ich will be gone just on a statistical basis - and then the immunity will wain.

And you're right - it is 'only an experiment in a very controlled situation' - but you were the person asking for science, not opinion. Experiments are done in very controlled situations.

Lastly (and it is an interesting discussion), I did NOT say that because there were 0 trophonts after the 3 month challenge that there was no ich in the tank. What I said is at some point between 1.5 months and 3 months immunity becomes 'full' and the fish do not shed trophonts. Somewhere between 3 months and 6 months that immunity starts to drop. Since the measurements were only done at 1.5, 3, 6 month timeframes its hard to say exactly how long 'full immunit' lasts, ie it doesn't start at 3 months and end 1 day before 6 months. But it is theoretically possible that it would be long enough to be considered a fallow tank. This is especially true given the fact that the immune group had 99% less shedding of trophonts at 1.5 months, 100% less at 3 months and 95% less than the control group at 6 months.

Just to refresh. You did state you wouldnt change you QT procedure, but you made a statement about if ich infected your tank you would observe if immunity develops. I dont agree with that statement. I feel it is safer for the inhabitants to allow the tank to go fallow.

Basically until I see a study with data that shows a tank with immunity allows the parasite to die off, I'm treating and recommending fallow period. There are too many variables and noting in that study stated that "theoretically possible that it would be long enough to be considered a fallow tank. That is a recipe for heartache. Just my opinion and I am wrong on a daily basis.

 

[MnFish1]

Our OP seems to have disappeared on us.

LOL we are a bit off topic lol...

 

[iemsparticus]

Just to refresh. You did state you wouldnt change you QT procedure, but you made a statement about if ich infected your tank you would observe if immunity develops. I dont agree with that statement. I feel it is safer for the inhabitants to allow the tank to go fallow.

Basically until I see a study with data that shows a tank with immunity allows the parasite to die off, I'm treating and recommending fallow period. There are too many variables and noting in that study stated that "theoretically possible that it would be long enough to be considered a fallow tank. That is a recipe for heartache. Just my opinion and I am wrong on a daily basis.

If immunity is what y'all are after, @Paul B is your man!

 

[MnFish1]

Just to refresh. You did state you wouldnt change you QT procedure, but you made a statement about if ich infected your tank you would observe if immunity develops. I dont agree with that statement. I feel it is safer for the inhabitants to allow the tank to go fallow.

Basically until I see a study with data that shows a tank with immunity allows the parasite to die off, I'm treating and recommending fallow period. There are too many variables and noting in that study stated that "theoretically possible that it would be long enough to be considered a fallow tank. That is a recipe for heartache. Just my opinion and I am wrong on a daily basis.

BTW - in reality - as you said - the chance that I will have a tank in which most of the fish develop immunity to ich is small. If I did have a tank with Ich- I would treat depending on the severity in a standard manner. I was talking mostly theoretically here lol. And once again it was a post of Humblefish's from I think 2016 about immunity that suggested this scenario might be possible (or that people at least thought it might)

 

[Humblefish]

If immunity is what y'all are after, @Paul B is your man!

Oh no, my nemesis has just been invited into this thread!

 

[iemsparticus]

Oh no, my nemesis has just been invited into this thread!

TBH, if I lived near the ocean, had access to live black worms, and didn't work 80-90 hours a week, I would be very interested in started a second tank and trying out Paul's method... that sort of homeopathic approach has an appeal to me. As it is, I happily QT all of my fish, and am confident that I am doing all that I can to prevent disease outbreak.

In other words, until I retire, and move closer to the ocean, @Humblefish is still my guy.

 

[Pistol Peet]

At the risk of starting a war, please see thread title.

TTM is, in my not so humble opinion, one of the worst things to hit the hobby in my 20+ years doing it. Why do people love it? In my opinion, it comes down to two things:

1) I call it the **** (online vendor) effect. Back in the day, they invented 14 day guarantees. That shifts the financial burden of QTing from customer to supplier. In short, people don't so much care, or at least don't feel the $ pinch, of QT losses. Trading QT losses for safer display makes economic sense with guarantee. But it's barbaric. We have an obligation to do what we can to assure the survival of the fish we purchase.
2) People love to brag/post about their prowess in the hobby. Hey look, we have this new QT protocol and my fish came through it great. And thus it spreads. People are MUCH MUCH less likely to post-man I"m an idiot. I tried this new method and killed a bunch of fish. Don't make the same mistake I did.

Why do I think TTM is horrible:

1) Fish when shipped, or even moved from store to home, are by definition highly stressed. You're now taking this stressed fish and putting it in a way too small, totally uncycled, often unfiltered tank. It violates every tenet the hobby was built on.
2) Letting a new fish repeatedly go through a tank cycle, and fighting against it with water changes and TT is super stressful on already stressed fish. Sure, some fish survive it, but way too many don't.
3) repeatedly catching and moving new arrivals from tank to tank also highly stressful
4) I understand the biology of TTM and in theory it is very effective in treating ich. Since all parasites have different life cycles, it is ONLY effective against ich, and ignores all other issues. Why focus QT attention on a single problem, when there are lots of potential issues, all of which will be made worse by having super stressed out fish.
5) Ich is the easiest issue to deal with in QT. If you see it, a quick course of cupramine is 100% effective, MUCH MUCH cheaper and easier, and much much much much much less stressful on fish than TTM.

I absolutely 100% do not see any sense in TTM

Better to have a proper QT tank, observe new arrivals and treat as necessary.

Michael

I completely disagree ive had several fish die as a result of cupramin copper as it is a poisen not only to the ich and velvet but the fish also. Ive done tons of ttm with never losing a single fish for me the proof is in the pudding lets use poisonous chemicals or fresh transfer water and tanks... hmmm 1 definitely sounds worse.

 

[nkarisny]

At the risk of starting a war, please see thread title.

TTM is, in my not so humble opinion, one of the worst things to hit the hobby in my 20+ years doing it. Why do people love it? In my opinion, it comes down to two things:

1) I call it the **** (online vendor) effect. Back in the day, they invented 14 day guarantees. That shifts the financial burden of QTing from customer to supplier. In short, people don't so much care, or at least don't feel the $ pinch, of QT losses. Trading QT losses for safer display makes economic sense with guarantee. But it's barbaric. We have an obligation to do what we can to assure the survival of the fish we purchase.
2) People love to brag/post about their prowess in the hobby. Hey look, we have this new QT protocol and my fish came through it great. And thus it spreads. People are MUCH MUCH less likely to post-man I"m an idiot. I tried this new method and killed a bunch of fish. Don't make the same mistake I did.

Why do I think TTM is horrible:

1) Fish when shipped, or even moved from store to home, are by definition highly stressed. You're now taking this stressed fish and putting it in a way too small, totally uncycled, often unfiltered tank. It violates every tenet the hobby was built on.
2) Letting a new fish repeatedly go through a tank cycle, and fighting against it with water changes and TT is super stressful on already stressed fish. Sure, some fish survive it, but way too many don't.
3) repeatedly catching and moving new arrivals from tank to tank also highly stressful
4) I understand the biology of TTM and in theory it is very effective in treating ich. Since all parasites have different life cycles, it is ONLY effective against ich, and ignores all other issues. Why focus QT attention on a single problem, when there are lots of potential issues, all of which will be made worse by having super stressed out fish.
5) Ich is the easiest issue to deal with in QT. If you see it, a quick course of cupramine is 100% effective, MUCH MUCH cheaper and easier, and much much much much much less stressful on fish than TTM.

I absolutely 100% do not see any sense in TTM

Better to have a proper QT tank, observe new arrivals and treat as necessary.

Michael

u say this but if main tank is infected and killing fish u have to take fish out and put in tubs. not everyone has cycled spare tank . transfer is way better on the fish in the long run then possible giving it cancer from your copper use !!

 

[nkarisny]

I completely disagree ive had several fish die as a result of cupramin copper as it is a poisen not only to the ich and velvet but the fish also. Ive done tons of ttm with never losing a single fish for me the proof is in the pudding lets use poisonous chemicals or fresh transfer water and tanks... hmmm 1 definitely sounds worse.

i have lost fish either way but copper a lot more deaths. an when the fish has been scratching from the ich and has open wounds it is not at all wise to put that fish in copper . it will just burn the fish !!

 

[Dolphins18]

I agree with the OP.
TTM and copper are both very inhumane in my opinion.
Neither should be encouraged as an ich treatment. Vitamins and proper water quality often fixes ich.

 

[nkarisny]

i just remember temperature is the most important thing to remember in transfer method !! fish can have salinity go u and down , water quality can be some what dirty and be cleaned . but if you move fish from one tube to the next get the temp right!!!! very important . i also use filters w polyfiller the whole time . keep aggressive fish away from the other fish . the cheapest and easiest way to do transfer method wo cycled tank is tubs . they cost $10 a piece easy to clean w hot water and lay out in sun. the cheapest filters (the hang on the back) cost $19 . everyone can afford this ! i have 20 fish so i use three tubs at a time and switch out. never leave fish in over feed water . i clean out daily with net . make sure to leave net in boiling hot water after each use and dont forget to get handle in the hot water . lay out in sun for next day .vinegar is great to clean tubs out but dont use on the filters or net . these items are used more frequently so i dont want to much vinegar if any getting into tubs that fish are in . i also use air strips w three different air pumps . i never re use air tubing. tubing is so cheap buy new tubing !! hope this helps!