Plumbing question - Dual return pumps

[wickedxreef]

Hello Fellow Reefers-

After narrowly avoiding a major disaster by relying on a single return pump, I’ve decided to order two return pumps to build in some redundancy moving forward. My system currently runs on just one return, and I’m still debating whether check valves are worth it. My concern is that if one pump fails, water might backflow through the non-operational pump. That said, I know check valves have a reputation for sticking or failing altogether.

Is it worth installing a check valve in this situation?

My current plumbing plan is to come off each return pump with either a true union or a check valve, then connect to a 45-degree fitting, and finally merge both lines using a wye. I’m definitely open to suggestions if there’s a more reliable or efficient way to plumb a dual-return setup.

TIA

 

[smitten with ocean life]

@UncommonSense ?

 

[UncommonSense]

Hello Fellow Reefers-

After narrowly avoiding a major disaster by relying on a single return pump, I’ve decided to order two return pumps to build in some redundancy moving forward. My system currently runs on just one return, and I’m still debating whether check valves are worth it. My concern is that if one pump fails, water might backflow through the non-operational pump. That said, I know check valves have a reputation for sticking or failing altogether.

Is it worth installing a check valve in this situation?

My current plumbing plan is to come off each return pump with either a true union or a check valve, then connect to a 45-degree fitting, and finally merge both lines using a wye. I’m definitely open to suggestions if there’s a more reliable or efficient way to plumb a dual-return setup.

TIA

Check valves are a smart idea on parallel pump plumbing! — if one pump dies, water from the second pump will be forced back through it!

I like using the disassemble check valves, and just making them part of my routine maintenance in this application!

45elbows and wyes do help a bit with flow, but you’ll be restricted elsewhere moreso! — many people just have their return pumps(s) plumbed to a manifold tee!


Electrically speaking; the most redundant way to have these pumps set up would be to have each plug on a separate GFCI, ideally with each GFCI on a different breaker! — this obviously isn’t a viable option for everyone, just a best-case scenario!

 

[wickedxreef]

Check valves are a smart idea on parallel pump plumbing! — if one pump dies, water from the second pump will be forced back through it!

I like using the disassemble check valves, and just making them part of my routine maintenance in this application!

45elbows and wyes do help a bit with flow, but you’ll be restricted elsewhere moreso! — many people just have their return pumps(s) plumbed to a manifold tee!


Electrically speaking; the most redundant way to have these pumps set up would be to have each plug on a separate GFCI, ideally with each GFCI on a different breaker! — this obviously isn’t a viable option for everyone, just a best-case scenario!

Excellent information! I really appreciate all the sound advice.

I have a couple follow-up questions, is there a particular check valve that you recommend? I’ve read to make sure they’re installed 90 vertical to ensure they can completely close. Also, how often are you cleaning yours?

I so wish I could run redundant power. Next house, that’s def going to be a thought. Even might install a chiller as well. While I don’t have issues with the tank getting warm, might be a safe bet, my friends AC crapped out while he on vacation.

Thank you again for all the advice.

 

[UncommonSense]

Excellent information! I really appreciate all the sound advice.

I have a couple follow-up questions, is there a particular check valve that you recommend? I’ve read to make sure they’re installed 90 vertical to ensure they can completely close. Also, how often are you cleaning yours?

I so wish I could run redundant power. Next house, that’s def going to be a thought. Even might install a chiller as well. While I don’t have issues with the tank getting warm, might be a safe bet, my friends AC crapped out while he on vacation.

Thank you again for all the advice.

These are the most reliable one’s I’ve used that are also easy to maintain!

Wye Check Valve

Why does BRS recommend this? Check valves are always a good idea to have, however when it comes to reliability you get what you pay for. There are other good check valves on the market but we feel that the Georg Fischer Wye check valve is by far the most superior. They have a removable plunger...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

As far as maintenance interval; I usually recommend cleaning them during any return pump shutdown for maintenance; in this case, every 1-2 months (or during every bigger water change)!

 

[Marc G-L]

I've read about a thousand reviews and it appears there is no perfect device out there. "Everything fails" its just a matter of when. I think I've made my choice. 2 smaller output Wifi Sicce pumps connected by reinforced vinyl tubing to a PVC Y, then a "WYE check valve" and more soft tubing to the final schedule 80 pIastic. There are WYE check valves on Amazon that are clear to observe gunking up and they also have a unscrewable side port for cleaning access without having to dismanteling the whole setup. (not cheap but seems more reliable than flapper style check valves)

Anybody do something similar to this? Is it hard to sync two equal DC pumps so they don't overpower one another?

 

[DanP-SD]

I’d keep it much simpler than the above post. I run two pumps on my 260 and have done so on past tanks. If you plumb them so that each has its own return line to the tank, when one fails it will become a secondary drain line but that’s not a big problem. The net effect is the tank get noisier, which is a good alert that something isn’t working right. Check valves may mask that warning sign a bit and, in my experience, are more risk than reward.

In practice, if you start with good pumps and clean them once or twice a year, the risk of failure is quite low.

 

[JayM]

If I was going to run 2 return pumps, they'd be completely isolated from each other. Each pump connected to its own return.

 

[TX_REEF]

I generally recommend ensuring your sump size can handle all overflow that may occur when a pump fails - completely eliminates this concern. Anything mechanical, including check valves, can fail over time.

 

[archipelago]

Don't worry about check valve failure - the comments are not applicable to your purpose. Yes, they all 'fail' but:

a) failure in this regard constitutes leak-by via a fouled gasket/flap
b) is only impactful if you are trying to prevent backflush from your display to your sump.

A properly positioned return outlet will prevent this - and should be standard.

In the spirit of what you are trying to achieve; even a significant amount leak-by will still divert water to the display and keep life support systems connected.

For your purpose: a flap-style, Spears brand true union check valve will be the most reliable. The y-styes are great for ease-of-maintenance, but they are more likely to fail to a point where the flow-prevention mechanism doesn't work at all - as it relies on a small weight (which is easily impacted by solid debris).

Aside from electrical isolation as others have mentioned, you can remove an additional failure point (x 2) by utilizing a quality AC return pump. Eheim, Fluval, and Tunze will all serve you well. I have had Sicce and Magdrive fail in previous setups.

 

[mcarroll]

After narrowly avoiding a major disaster by relying on a single return pump,

You made me wonder which brand/model?

Was there anything interesting about what caused the fail?

Is it worth installing a check valve in this situation?

Yes, but nothing's perfect.

In practice, if you start with good pumps and clean them once or twice a year, the risk of failure is quite low.

This.

you can remove an additional failure point (x 2) by utilizing a quality AC return pump. Eheim, Fluval, and Tunze will all serve you well. I have had Sicce and Magdrive fail in previous setups.

This more than anything.

 

[wickedxreef]

You made me wonder which brand/model?

Was there anything interesting about what caused the fail?


Yes, but nothing's perfect.


This.


This more than anything.

I had a vectra m2 fail. After reading other reviews, it seems to be a common issue getting just over a year and then they fail on you. Basically I was getting a red flashing light. I tried all the steps and nothing. Completely tore it down and it still wouldn’t work. I went with red dragon pumps which hopefully will be more reliable and get me more than a few years. Luckily this time, if one fails, I have another.

 

[mcarroll]

I had a vectra m2 fail. After reading other reviews, it seems to be a common issue getting just over a year and then they fail on you. Basically I was getting a red flashing light. I tried all the steps and nothing. Completely tore it down and it still wouldn’t work. I went with red dragon pumps which hopefully will be more reliable and get me more than a few years. Luckily this time, if one fails, I have another.

IMO for a return pump I stay away from less-known brands....which doesn't necessarily correlate with cost.

Any brand can fail, but new brands can be predicted to fail more...it's in the nature of new products.

Because failures still happen, it's also useful to stick with brands that have the best warranties....gives you reassurance of not wasting your money, but also says something about what the company thinks of their own reliability.

I think classic Eheim "Universal Pumps" continue to be the most reliable of all time (and still carry a 3 year warranty)....just not the most sizes available and the cost is a lot. Because of this, if they have the right size for your app and the cost isn't a problem, this is still the #1 return pump choice by a fair margin IMO. But the string of seconds is still enviable, and I use some of these a lot more often and have better warranties, 5 years in some cases: Sicce/QuietOne, Mag, Eheim (modern pumps).

Red Dragon is newer, but does have a 2 year warranty at least! Water Blaster would be another high end option, but with a 5 year warranty, but also newer.

I think keeping a spare return pump on hand is a pretty good hedge on the risk of failure no matter which pump you end up using. Having it plumbed and online might be better, but having a spare at all is the main thing IMO. I've never had a return pump fail during LFS hours....not once. ;)

 

[mcarroll]

I had a vectra m2 fail. After reading other reviews, it seems to be a common issue getting just over a year and then they fail on you. Basically I was getting a red flashing light. I tried all the steps and nothing. Completely tore it down and it still wouldn’t work. I went with red dragon pumps which hopefully will be more reliable and get me more than a few years. Luckily this time, if one fails, I have another.

IMO for a return pump I stay away from less-known brands....which doesn't necessarily correlate with cost.

Any brand can fail, but new brands can be predicted to fail more...it's in the nature of new products.

Because failures still happen, it's also useful to stick with brands that have the best warranties....gives you reassurance of not wasting your money, but also says something about what the company thinks of their own reliability.

I think classic Eheim "Universal Pumps" continue to be the most reliable of all time (and still carry a 3 year warranty)....just not the most sizes available and the cost is a lot. Because of this, if they have the right size for your app and the cost isn't a problem, this is still the #1 return pump choice by a fair margin IMO. But the string of seconds is still enviable, and I use some of these a lot more often and have better warranties, 5 years in some cases: Sicce/QuietOne, Mag, Eheim (modern pumps).

Red Dragon is newer, but does have a 2 year warranty at least! Water Blaster would be another high end option, but with a 5 year warranty, but also newer.

I think keeping a spare return pump on hand is a pretty good hedge on the risk of failure no matter which pump you end up using. Having it plumbed and online might be better, but having a spare at all is the main thing IMO. I've never had a return pump fail during LFS hours....not once. ;) I will also say that the lions share of failures were powering them off for a maintenance and they just don't turn back on.....so I'm there, but if I don't have a spare...

 

[Largeangels]

Personally I try and do 2 separate pumps with separate plumbing and like UncommonSense stated I keep them on separate circuits. I try and keep the flow pumps in the aqauariums on two separate circuits as well.

 

[mcarroll]

Weird R2R behavior lately.

Another double post AND it ate my most recent edit before saving.....and the edit timer has passed so I can't edit.....