Poland Union Elementary - Ich Support

[Pola0502ds]

My local elementary school, k-2, had a reef tank put in this year which is still a work in progress but about a month ago the fish had come down with ICH. It has not got any better only worse so I volunteered to set up a QT tank and take care of them. I am choosing to do the Hyposalinity method and have a few questions.

The fish will be in a 40 gallon tank with a few pieces of live rock to start the biological filter, a bunch of PVC, heater, power head, air stone, and a HOB filter. I do not have a ATO. From what I understand I need to drop the salt to 1.009 over 48 hours and keep it there for 30+ days and if for a single day the salt reaches 1.010 my 30 days start all over again. My question is, can I drop the salt level down to 1.007 to give me wiggle room to account for water evaporation while I am at work. I have the ability to add top off water morning lunch and evening but I was thinking If I can go even lower than 1.09 that would eliminate the chance of even reaching 1.010.

Also heard that with such a low salt level the PH becomes hard to manage, I purchase some PH buffering liquid from Seachem but if anyone has any other advice on how to handle this I would appreciate it!

You guys may have heard of this tank, it was talked about on Reef Threads podcast [HASHTAG]#272[/HASHTAG], [HASHTAG]#273[/HASHTAG], & [HASHTAG]#274[/HASHTAG] (I believe). It is amazing what a community can do to get a project like this going and even people all over the country who just happened to hear our story by word of mouth and then wanted to get involved. If you are one of those people who got involved, thank you very much. This tank will touch the lives of many kids.

If you would like to see the live feed of the tank click the link below. You can read about the tank and then there will be another link that takes you to the tank and the password is gobulldogs. As of this posting 9:30am 6/5, the camera is temporarily shut off and will be back up and running this afternoon. Which by that point all the fish will have been removed to the QT but you can still view the tank with the coral and watch it's progress.

Quick stats on the the tank:
120G acrylic Display
40g Sump
Reef Breeders LED Lights
Neptune Apex Gold
Neptune Wave PowerHeads
Reef Octopus Shimmer

 

[Humblefish]

First thing we need to be sure of before doing hypo; is that this is indeed ich, and not velvet, you are dealing with here. Velvet trophonts (and the correlating dots) are much smaller than ich. They range in size from 10-80 micrometers in diameter. They are also perfectly round. Ich trophonts are more oval shaped and range in size from 48 x 27 to 452 x 360 micrometers. Both start off small but then grow in size before dropping off. It has been said that velvet makes a fish look like it has been dusted with a fine powder, whereas ich is more like salt grains. Typically, if you can count the white dots its usually ich. However, if they are too numerous to count there's a good chance you are dealing with velvet. Below are pics of fish with ich (top) and then velvet (below) for comparison purposes.

 

[Pola0502ds]

It looks more like the second picture to me, what i think is ich is not as large as the ich in the 1st pic. We delayed it so i am going to go to the school tomorrow and take a better look.

If it was velvet, it would have been dead by now right? This has been going on for over a month.

 

[Humblefish]

If it was velvet, it would have been dead by now right? This has been going on for over a month.

Yes, in one month's time there should have been some casualties if it was velvet. Below is my write-up on hyposalinity. There is also this article: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I4/hyposalinity/OST.htm

You can drop the SG down to 1.008 (with most fish) but I wouldn't go any lower than that.

Hyposalinity: Treats Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and gill flukes.

How To Treat - Place the fish you wish to treat in a quarantine tank with SG & temperature matching the tank they came from. Over a period of 48 hours, gradually lower the SG down to 1.009. You must use a perfectly calibrated refractometer at all times while doing hypo. Treat for 30 consecutive days, and during that time the SG must always remain at 1.009. If it inches up even slightly, the 30 day clock restarts. For this reason, many people use an auto top off system while performing hyposalinity. Some have even used hypo to successfully rid their display tank of ich, while others have failed. All corals and inverts must be removed beforehand if you wish to try this.

One of the challenges posed by hypo is maintaining a proper pH for the entire duration. While fish aren’t overly sensitive to low pH for short periods of time, anything continuously lower than 7.5 is going to be a problem. So, you will have to constantly test and then buffer the water to raise the pH. This can be accomplished by using supplements (available at most LFS) or you can “bake” your own DIY supplement by using baking soda. Spread baking soda onto a clean baking sheet, and bake at 300F for 1 hour. This process drives off water and carbon dioxide from the baking soda, and the result is an effective pH buffer. You will need to experiment (start with a very small amount) to determine how much is needed to raise your pH to the desired level.

Pros - Chemical free solution to ich, gentle on the fish. Scientific research also showed hyposalinity at 15 ppt for 2 days eliminated juvenile and adult flukes. When maintained for 5 days, egg hatching was prevented.

Cons/Side Effects - Difficult to execute properly, and hypo resistant strains of ich have been proven to exist (study done by Yambot in 2003.)

 

[Humblefish]

@chicago discusses performing hypo in a DT (post #3) in this thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/hyposalinity.247596/

Just something else to consider.

 

[Pola0502ds]

Thanks Mr Humble.

This certainly has been a roller coaster ride. Checked on the fish this morning and all the fish have absolutely no spots and they are swimming around/eating. This has happened over this past month before and we found a pattern. Usually over the weekend the white spots disappear and by tuesday they come back. We think this is do to the fact that the tank is in the library and it gets a lot of traffic from the kids which causes stress. We put a little rule in place a while ago that the kids cannot be right on top of the tank and they have to be a few steps back. However, school just ended this past friday and the tank will be a lot less stressful.

We did make an attempt to remove the fish and get into QT but it's just impossible to remove them with all the rock and coral in place. We are going to see where this week takes us before we commit to removing anything.

 

[Humblefish]

It sounds like you are dealing with ich, as the trophonts will drop off after 3-7 days and then you won't see ich on the fish again for awhile. I highly recommend reading this (especially the part under Understanding Ich) so you will understand more about the foe you are facing: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.191226/

 

[Pola0502ds]

Thanks for all the help Humble. Went to the school again and what a great change. The large hippo is clear and back to her normal self. Time will tell if its really gone or not.

 

[Pola0502ds]

I just read the above link and make sure i am understanding this correctly.

Say in a month all the fish are ich free and healthy, i would still need to remove all the fish from the tank and QT them for 76 days to make sure that any new fish i add to the system wont get ich (after I QT them after the inital purchase).Otherwise, even though the current fish don't have ich, ich can live in a tank up to 4 years and any new additions will get ich??

 

[Alanc425]

If its ick- it unfortunately doesn't just go away after a few days without treatment. The tang was stressed as you were saying, its immune system was weakened and the infection was more heavy covering its body. The ick could still be present in its gills with no spots on the body.

Sounds like it's in the tomont/theront stage. Keep an eye for it reappearing in the next few days and still plan for treatment. Keep in mind you would have to treat all the fish(not just the tang) and let the tank fallow for 12 weeks to guarantee a successful treatment.

I've had great success with cupramine and it is less stressful on fish than other coppers if you decide to go a chemical route. Good margin of error, easy to use.

 

[Pola0502ds]

Thanks alan. I have the QT setup and ready. It will either be Hypo or Cupramine.

 

[Humblefish]

Good (and very accurate) advice from @Alanc425. Please continue to post answers in the fish disease forum.

 

[Pola0502ds]

If i let the tank go fallow for 12 weeks and there is coral and inverts in it, should i still feed like i normally should? Or cut back a lot?


During this 12 weeks that the fish are in treatment, once the ich is gone should i still leave the fish in the cupramine or should i transfer the fish to a clean tank (or somehow remove the copper)?

 

[Pola0502ds]

Is there an existing thread on how to use cupramine with other advice and tips? This forum is awesome but i find that the search feature is the only thing lacking.

We had a meeting last night and determined that the best thing to do is what we have been talking about. Treat all fish with copper and let the DT go fallow. Its whats best moving forward especially considering where the tank is it. Its in a school not in my living room so time is something we dont always have to keep dealing with ich.

 

[Humblefish]

If i let the tank go fallow for 12 weeks and there is coral and inverts in it, should i still feed like i normally should? Or cut back a lot?

You'll want to spot feed any LPS/inverts; and/or throw a few pellets in every couple of days to maintain bacteria levels.

During this 12 weeks that the fish are in treatment, once the ich is gone should i still leave the fish in the cupramine or should i transfer the fish to a clean tank (or somehow remove the copper)?

Most people treat with copper for 30 days, and then do water changes/run carbon to remove it. And then just observe to see if symptoms return, as 30 days in copper isn't always effective. I personally prefer to treat for just 2 weeks (to limit exposure time to the harsh chemical), but then transfer all the fish to a non-medicated holding tank for observation. This strategy leaves the tomont (encysted) stage of ich/velvet behind in the original treatment tank. If you can do it this way, (a) DO NOT lower the Cu level (i.e. the shield) prior to transferring all the fish (b) DO NOT reuse anything from the treatment tank; must be all new water/equipment in the observation tank (c) Treatment tank & observation tank MUST be at least 10 feet away from one another, to avoid the possibility of aerosol transmission.

 

[Humblefish]

Is there an existing thread on how to use cupramine with other advice and tips? This forum is awesome but i find that the search feature is the only thing lacking.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-treatment.193343/

 

[Alanc425]

^pretty much everything . I'm not sure how many fish we're transferring or if you're going to be at the school everyday, but I'd recommend a seachem ammonia alert badge too, this way someone could notify you if ammonia in QT gets too high.

The only thing I would look out for, going from your first post, is if you're going to have the live rock in QT for the biofilter, it will absorb copper so you will have to be more vigilant in testing and maintaining the copper level.

And don't mix any other medicines/chemicals with cupramine.....no prime, water conditioners, amquel- other ammonia reducers....it will kill the fish.

 

[Pola0502ds]

Thanks for all the support guys.

Alan, regarding the live rock, I said that at time because up until that point I was going to do the hyposalinity method.

Well, Saturday morning is the big day to tear the aquascape apart and get the fish into QT. I will keep you guys updated.

 

[Pola0502ds]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-treatment.193343/

Looking at this thread it seems to me that there is a debate over what is better to use, coppersafe or cupramine. Looks like coppersafe is easier on the fish but...?

Also, it was mentioned that wrasse have a hard time with copper. I will list the fish going into treatment and you guys can let me know if I should be concerned, anything to look after, or offer any advice.

(2) six line wrasse
(1) clown fish
(1) blue hippo tang
(1) Yellow tang

Regarding the Hippo Tang, I have heard these fish are a ICH magnet and that has been proven to be the case for me. Once the DT tank is fallow for 12 weeks and all the fish have ICH removed, will there ever be a possibility that ich would ever return to the Hippo? The only way that could happen is if we introduce a fish into the DT that was not QT.

 

[Alanc425]

Regarding the Hippo Tang, I have heard these fish are a ICH magnet and that has been proven to be the case for me. Once the DT tank is fallow for 12 weeks and all the fish have ICH removed, will there ever be a possibility that ich would ever return to the Hippo? The only way that could happen is if we introduce a fish into the DT that was not QT.

Correct, tangs are just more susceptible to ich which is why you see it on them more often. If you run fallow and successful treatment in the QT, it wont come back unless you add it in with a sick fish.