Poland Union Elementary - Ich Support

[Humblefish]

I would use Coppersafe; I am rapidly losing faith in Cupramine as being better/safer than good ol' chelated copper.

 

[Pola0502ds]

Came up with a few more questions before the big day.

-I had to purchase cupramine, it was all my LFS had. The bottle says to dose 20 drops per 10 gallons, i have a 40 gallon tank, has anyone done the math or paid attention to how many drops are in a teaspoon?

-after the treatment of these fish with ich and they return to the DT, can i clean the tank and all components with bleach and use it as a hospital tank or QT in the future? Or can it only be used for ich? Or nothing at all? I know some of this information has been posted before but i have done so much research my head is spinning.

-As i understand it and correct me if im wrong but the only time copper kills ich is during its free swimming stage? If thats the case and i put all these fish into QT with no visible white spots is it possible i can treat them for 30 days and when they return to the DT, ICH can show its face again? As of a week ago i thought all the fish were gonna die, was not moving around too much, would not eat, could barely see, white spots all over the place. As of right now they look ich free and are all acting like normal happy fish. I dont want this to be all for nothing.

Again, im sure the answers are posted somewhere else but sometimes when you ask the question a different way you can understand the answer better.

Thanks guys.

 

[Humblefish]

-I had to purchase cupramine, it was all my LFS had. The bottle says to dose 20 drops per 10 gallons, i have a 40 gallon tank, has anyone done the math or paid attention to how many drops are in a teaspoon?

There are roughly 100 drops in a teaspoon. So, 20 drops = 1 ml = 1/5 teaspoon. However, I would disregard Seachem's instructions and raise the Cu level slowly instead (over a period of 4-5 days). You will need either a Seachem or Salifert copper test kit to measure Cupramine and ensure it is within therapeutic range (0.35 - 0.5 ppm).

-after the treatment of these fish with ich and they return to the DT, can i clean the tank and all components with bleach and use it as a hospital tank or QT in the future? Or can it only be used for ich? Or nothing at all? I know some of this information has been posted before but i have done so much research my head is spinning.

You can use bleach or even just vinegar. Wipe down the seams to ensure no copper residue is stuck to it. Let everything air dry for 72 hrs, and then you can use it for a QT or invert tank or whatever you like.

-As i understand it and correct me if im wrong but the only time copper kills ich is during its free swimming stage? If thats the case and i put all these fish into QT with no visible white spots is it possible i can treat them for 30 days and when they return to the DT, ICH can show its face again? As of a week ago i thought all the fish were gonna die, was not moving around too much, would not eat, could barely see, white spots all over the place. As of right now they look ich free and are all acting like normal happy fish. I dont want this to be all for nothing.

Copper targets the free swimming stage and there is also some evidence it can kill the protomont (just before it encysts). Since most strains of ich complete their entire life cycle in 30 days or less, 30 days of copper exposure will usually eradicate ich in a QT. However, there are a few strains which can take > 30 days, including one that took 72 days just for all the free swimming theronts to be released from a group of encysted tomonts. These strains are probably rare, but still have been proven to exist. Therefore, it is prudent to either observe post treatment to ensure symptoms do not return, or transfer the fish into a holding tank for extended observation. I prefer to do the latter, without dropping the Cu level beforehand, so any unhatched cysts are left behind in the treatment tank.

You also will need to wait 72 days (actually 76 - long story, click here) before putting these fish back into the DT if you want to be reasonably sure ich has starved to death in there.

 

[Humblefish]

If you wish to attempt a shorter fallow period, I suggest doing the "black molly test" before putting the rest of the fish back in: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fallow-periods-going-fishless.190324/page-2#post-2855190

 

[Alanc425]

I always dose using a syringe instead of drops or teaspoons.

(.381) * (strength of dose) * (gallons being treated) = mL of Cupramine to dose

Example: (.381) * (.5mg/L) * (40 gallons) = 7.62 ml of Cupramine to dose (over a few days)

 

[Pola0502ds]

Thanks guys.. Humble, I was already planning to leave the DT fallow for 12 weeks and the fish will obviously stay in QT during that time.

Just to be clear, putting these fish in QT and treating with copper WILL kill all ich and I have zero chance of ich coming back if I do everything stated above and even if the fish a clear of ich entering the QT tank?

 

[Humblefish]

Just to be clear, putting these fish in QT and treating with copper WILL kill all ich and I have zero chance of ich coming back if I do everything stated above and even if the fish a clear of ich entering the QT tank?

Zero chance doesn't exist, not in anything in this life. The odds are in your favor if you treat with copper for 30 days, but the method with the greatest success rate (for treating ich) is tank transfer method: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

 

[Pola0502ds]

Ok, tomorrow is the big day and came up with one last question. Should i put the intial dose of copper in the tank before the fish or does it not matter?

 

[Pola0502ds]

I just read up on the tank to tank transfer method and after reading some of the comments it looks like a lot of people use this method on all their new fish regardless if they show signs of ich or not? Is that true? Or are all these people doing it when they buy fish only because it had already come down with ich?

 

[melypr1985]

Ok, tomorrow is the big day and came up with one last question. Should i put the intial dose of copper in the tank before the fish or does it not matter?

Dont start dosing with the copper until the fish are in the tank. You'll want to bring the level of copper up slowly over the course of a week or so to make it easier on the fish.

I just read up on the tank to tank transfer method and after reading some of the comments it looks like a lot of people use this method on all their new fish regardless if they show signs of ich or not? Is that true? Or are all these people doing it when they buy fish only because it had already come down with ich?

These people - including me- use this method to treat for ick whether these fish show signs of ick or not. This is because ick doesn't always have obvious outward signs, and for me at least, it's not worth the risk of introducing it back into my tank after all the hard work I went through to get it out.

 

[Pola0502ds]

Dont start dosing with the copper until the fish are in the tank. You'll want to bring the level of copper up slowly over the course of a week or so to make it easier on the fish.



These people - including me- use this method to treat for ick whether these fish show signs of ick or not. This is because ick doesn't always have obvious outward signs, and for me at least, it's not worth the risk of introducing it back into my tank after all the hard work I went through to get it out.

Absolutely. After this round is done and new fish start to come in thats what i am going to do. I never want to go through this again! The TTM is nice because you can treat the fish with or without signs of a disease and still have no chemicals come in contact with it.

 

[Pola0502ds]

Have the rock conpletely out of the tank. If you have a small six line wrasse and rock that has lots of openings, it maked for a great time! Let me tell you!

 

[Pola0502ds]

are you able to treat new fish with copper just to be safe if they show no signs of infection? Just like the TTM? Or stay away from copper and only use it when absolutely needed?

 

[melypr1985]

are you able to treat new fish with copper just to be safe if they show no signs of infection? Just like the TTM? Or stay away from copper and only use it when absolutely needed?

You are able to do that, but it is a poison so a lot of people are moving away from using unless it's needed. All the fish at the LFS I work at go into a copper system

 

[Pola0502ds]

Alright. I have the fish drip acclimating right now.

I guess i will have to consider buying 2 ten gallon tanks for the TTM. I have a 120, so knowing that and what type of fish i can keep, are 10 gallon tanks large enough for any of the fish i could possible purchase?

Also, i saw a picture of someones TTM setup and they had both tanks side by side. I thought both tanks should be far apart because ich and other types of pests can transfer through the air.

 

[melypr1985]

Alright. I have the fish drip acclimating right now.

I guess i will have to consider buying 2 ten gallon tanks for the TTM. I have a 120, so knowing that and what type of fish i can keep, are 10 gallon tanks large enough for any of the fish i could possible purchase?

Also, i saw a picture of someones TTM setup and they had both tanks side by side. I thought both tanks should be far apart because ich and other types of pests can transfer through the air.

It depends on the size of fish you are buying. If your getting show sized fish, then a 20 long would suit better. Mostly 10's work fine though.

They are next to each other just for the pictures. In reality one of those set ups will be outside drying at any given time and only one will be up in the house.

 

[Humblefish]

I prefer to use TTM when QT'ing fish for my personal collection, regardless of whether they are showing signs of disease or not. I dose Prazipro (to deworm) at the onset of transfers 2 & 4, so after just 13 days what I have achieved is a fish I am reasonably sure is ich & flukes free (the two hidden diseases). I observe for at least two more weeks to look for brook, velvet, bacterial infections, etc. All of which have obvious visible symptoms.

 

[Pola0502ds]

Alright guys, everyone is in QT. you can see the hippo and yellow, the others are hidding. I am going to dose tomorrow, unless you think i should now, because of the stress they went through today. Figured they dont need more added stress right now. Everything but the pvc will be pulled from the tank when dosed and i have the lights shut off for now to reduce stress.


Now regarding the display tank is there anything that needs cleaned or i should not consider using because its considered contaminated? Or it wont matter at this point because the tank is going fallow and should be ich free when done?

 

[Humblefish]

Alright guys, everyone is in QT. you can see the hippo and yellow, the others are hidding. I am going to dose tomorrow, unless you think i should now, because of the stress they went through today. Figured they dont need more added stress right now. Everything but the pvc will be pulled from the tank when dosed and i have the lights shut off for now to reduce stress.

I would attempt to feed them this evening; and if everyone eats, add a little copper to the water before going to bed.

Now regarding the display tank is there anything that needs cleaned or i should not consider using because its considered contaminated? Or it wont matter at this point because the tank is going fallow and should be ich free when done?

I would not use anything from the DT. Let everything sit fallow for 76 days to starve out whatever ich remains in there.

 

[Pola0502ds]

Everyone ate just fine, going to dose some copper now.