Prime Does Not Remove Ammonia

[brandon429]

Ok that helps insight thank u for clarifying


let’s vote this as the first entry into the experiments forum

MN’s and Coxeys substrate washing threads deserve in too. They stood out by being not just posts and links of examples but had a method and elements of control and charting. Similarity of findings seems to validate, and what you’ve shown here furthers the August work just the same.

 

[Dan_P]

I'm quite confident that was exactly what Dan did, but I'll let him speak for himself.

This is not hard. Take water with no ammonia, and demonstrate the tests show no ammonia. Then add ammonia and see that the tests show ammonia. Then test the same ammonia plus Prime and see what the test shows.

If the Prime plus ammonia shows little or no ammonia, the Prime reduced ammonia. If it shows the same as without Prime, it did not.

I just did a data dump for the Seachem Alert experiment. That should help answer some questions.

And yes, all sensors are tested to see if they are working. The response time of the sensor is determined by exposing the sensor to an ammonia solution and then the recovery time, when the sensor returns to its no ammonia state. This repeated to see if things go haywire in the second response-recovery cycle. I use an ammonia reference standard so I know how much total ammonia there is in the system. From the pH and temperature of the solution I calculate the concentration of free ammonia.

 

[Dan_P]

Yes - @Dan_P tried that with (I cant remember) - but it required an extremely high pH - and high ammonia level like 8 ppm - which was outside the parameters that the Seneye measures accurately

@taricha used some little saltwater crustacean.

 

[Dan_P]

Correct me if I’m wrong:

Bound ammonia will not show on ammonia sensing film test kits. If the test kit can detect bound ammonia - the ammonia isn’t truly bound.

I’m pretty sure we know that prime does bind ammonia in freshwater. Would a replicated test procedure but with using freshwater add insight of prime working in situations where it claims to?

I think we can prove that prime isn’t working in saltwater if we can clearly see it working in freshwater using the same testing methods.

Interesting thought. Does Prime reduce ammonia in freshwater? I wonder if @taricha looked this?

 

[MnFish1]

@taricha used some little saltwater crustacean.

Yes - it was amphipods - I believe

 

[Rick Mathew]

How Seachem Alert Detected No Ammonia Removal By Prime

Seachem Alert ammonia sensor detects free ammonia. It is semi-permeable membrane embedded with dye molecules that becomes colored when ammonia is present, the color becoming darker with increasing concentration of ammonia. Full color development requires about five minutes. If Prime removes all the ammonia from solution, the Seachem Alert will not change color when exposed to the solution. To ensure objective observations of color change of the sensor, the intensity of the light reflected from the sensor was measured with a spectrometer. The wavelength selected (603 nm) coincides with the absorbance of the dye when it reacts with ammonia. The graph below demonstrates the response of the Seachem Alert to a 0.48 ppm total ammonia solution in Instant Ocean.

The objective I had was to observe many exposures of the Alert sensor to ammonia in Instant Ocean or ammonia in Instant Ocean with five times the recommended dose of Prime. The protocol was to alternatively expose the sensor for a short fixed time to either the ammonia solution or the ammonia plus Prime solution. The Prime was allowed to react two hours with the ammonia before testing. If Prime removed ammonia from solution, the sensor absorbance would not change when exposed to the Prime containing solution but would change when exposed to the ammonia solution. The graph below shows the results from the experiment. Each sensor data point is labeled with the solution the sensor was exposed to. Despite the variation in absorbance data, the response curve to the mixed solution exposure resembles the response curve for the Alert sensor exposed to just ammonia (first plot).

The table below summarizes the results. There is little difference between the first pair of absorbances or the sum of absorbances for the entire series of exposures. The sensor response to the ammonia solution dosed with Prime is nearly identical to that of the ammonia solution.

Moreover, the absorbance at 150 seconds in the Prime experiment was accurately predicted from the 150 second time point of the ammonia only solution experiment in the first plot. This seems pretty conclusive that Prime has no effect on ammonia concentration.

Subsequent tests performed with two other ammonia sensors produced similar results. There is simply no evidence that Prime removes ammonia.

Well done young man...well done!!

 

[brandon429]

MN I have a fish substitute idea, a very costly one to consider

the lysmata shrimp


not cheap, but if pressed in a reef court of law I’d state they’re the weakest most non tolerant organisms that move around that we keep


problem is no middle ground, don’t get to see opercular stress/ flashing


when insulted they just keel over, very good toxicity maximum indicators and very poor on the lead up indication

Id still choose a common clownfish mass bred one

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How Seachem Alert Detected No Ammonia Removal By Prime

Seachem Alert ammonia sensor detects free ammonia. It is semi-permeable membrane embedded with dye molecules that becomes colored when ammonia is present, the color becoming darker with increasing concentration of ammonia. Full color development requires about five minutes. If Prime removes all the ammonia from solution, the Seachem Alert will not change color when exposed to the solution. To ensure objective observations of color change of the sensor, the intensity of the light reflected from the sensor was measured with a spectrometer. The wavelength selected (603 nm) coincides with the absorbance of the dye when it reacts with ammonia. The graph below demonstrates the response of the Seachem Alert to a 0.48 ppm total ammonia solution in Instant Ocean.

The objective I had was to observe many exposures of the Alert sensor to ammonia in Instant Ocean or ammonia in Instant Ocean with five times the recommended dose of Prime. The protocol was to alternatively expose the sensor for a short fixed time to either the ammonia solution or the ammonia plus Prime solution. The Prime was allowed to react two hours with the ammonia before testing. If Prime removed ammonia from solution, the sensor absorbance would not change when exposed to the Prime containing solution but would change when exposed to the ammonia solution. The graph below shows the results from the experiment. Each sensor data point is labeled with the solution the sensor was exposed to. Despite the variation in absorbance data, the response curve to the mixed solution exposure resembles the response curve for the Alert sensor exposed to just ammonia (first plot).

The table below summarizes the results. There is little difference between the first pair of absorbances or the sum of absorbances for the entire series of exposures. The sensor response to the ammonia solution dosed with Prime is nearly identical to that of the ammonia solution.

Moreover, the absorbance at 150 seconds in the Prime experiment was accurately predicted from the 150 second time point of the ammonia only solution experiment in the first plot. This seems pretty conclusive that Prime has no effect on ammonia concentration.

Subsequent tests performed with two other ammonia sensors produced similar results. There is simply no evidence that Prime removes ammonia.

Looks like a very nice experiment to me. Thanks for doing it.

 

[MnFish1]

Looks like a very nice experiment to me. Thanks for doing it.

Do you think you might be taking the experimenters bias and ignoring it>. i.e. - Who knows (there was not documentation that I saw) - that suggested - that the NM spectrophotmeter used was the 'right one'. You ignored the common sense critique seems to me

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do you think you might be taking the experimenters bias and ignoring it>. i.e. - Who knows (there was not documentation that I saw) - that suggested - that the NM spectrophotmeter used was the 'right one'. You ignored the common sense critique seems to me

I was just expressing my opinion that it was a good experiment. I'm certainly open to hearing what was wrong with it, but so far I've not heard any valid criticism.

I agree that it doesn't prove to toxicity issue (for example, maybe Seachem has the mechanism wrong even if they have the tox effect correct), but it does show that Prime does not lower free ammonia in this sort of situation. Bear in mind that Seachem's reasoning that it reduces nitrate toxicity is based purely on reports from users (who are, IMO, fairly unlikely to have had nitrate high enough to see a rapid toxicity with or without Prime). It is not based on any tests they ran or any plausible mechanism. They say it is surprising. But that did not stop them from claiming it all over the place. So the hurdle for Seachem to make a claim is rather low.

Maybe it works better with higher starting ammonia or a different pH or something else. Maybe it lowers ammonia in some other sort of situation, but Dan's experiment was not out of line with a time when someone might reasonably use Prime to deal with ammonia.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

MN I have a fish substitute idea, a very costly one to consider

the lysmata shrimp


not cheap, but if pressed in a reef court of law I’d state they’re the weakest most non tolerant organisms that move around that we keep


problem is no middle ground, don’t get to see opercular stress/ flashing


when insulted they just keel over, very good toxicity maximum indicators and very poor on the lead up indication

Id still choose a common clownfish mass bred one

There's a published list of common marine organisms used in ammonia tox tests (read it a few days ago but don't have it handy).

Mysis are among them, but it takes high ammonia. The 48 h LC50 for 2 day old mysis is about 1 mg/L unionized (that is, free ) NH3. Ghost shrimp are even higher.

Toxicity of ammonia to three marine fish and three marine invertebrates - PubMed

Laboratory toxicity tests were performed to obtain more data on the toxicity of ammonia to saltwater organisms. The standards for in-stream ammonia limits in marine environments presently are based on toxicity tests involving both freshwater and saltwater organisms. Acute tests (48 and 96 h)...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[brandon429]

reading now and linking that to a mine canary thread on the matter to add any snippets we can get.

 

[Malcontent]

More critter candidates.

 

[MnFish1]

I was just expressing my opinion that it was a good experiment. I'm certainly open to hearing what was wrong with it, but so far I've not heard any valid criticism.

I agree that it doesn't prove to toxicity issue (for example, maybe Seachem has the mechanism wrong even if they have the tox effect correct), but it does show that Prime does not lower free ammonia in this sort of situation. Bear in mind that Seachem's reasoning that it reduces nitrate toxicity is based purely on reports from users (who are, IMO, fairly unlikely to have had nitrate high enough to see a rapid toxicity with or without Prime). It is not based on any tests they ran or any plausible mechanism. They say it is surprising. But that did not stop them from claiming it all over the place. So the hurdle for Seachem to make a claim is rather low.

Maybe it works better with higher starting ammonia or a different pH or something else. Maybe it lowers ammonia in some other sort of situation, but Dan's experiment was not out of line with a time when someone might reasonably use Prime to deal with ammonia.

BTW - My comment came across harsher than I meant. I just don't have any clue with the spectrophotometer means? I mean it might mean a lot - but - its at an extremely low level where ammonia is being measured. The seachem alert is not (according to seachem) - designed to do this - I do not know about the other methods used. I'm going to test their 'multitest' as soon as it arrives - (supposed to be today) - to see if indeed that test actually shows a decrease in ammonia. If not - all good - I have no positive seachem agenda.

 

[MnFish1]

BTW - My comment came across harsher than I meant. I just don't have any clue with the spectrophotometer means? I mean it might mean a lot - but - its at an extremely low level where ammonia is being measured. The seachem alert is not (according to seachem) - designed to do this - I do not know about the other methods used. I'm going to test their 'multitest' as soon as it arrives - (supposed to be today) - to see if indeed that test actually shows a decrease in ammonia. If not - all good - I have no positive seachem agenda.

PS my opinion - the test is at the far low level of detection. I do not think it can say one way or the other. The seachem alert safe level is about the level that was measured in the experiment. Even a very slight difference would detoxify ammonia.

This gets to a more interesting question - that I thought about since someone mentioned it a couple months ago. More on this later

 

[MnFish1]

MN I have a fish substitute idea, a very costly one to consider

the lysmata shrimp


not cheap, but if pressed in a reef court of law I’d state they’re the weakest most non tolerant organisms that move around that we keep


problem is no middle ground, don’t get to see opercular stress/ flashing


when insulted they just keel over, very good toxicity maximum indicators and very poor on the lead up indication

Id still choose a common clownfish mass bred one

Fine - but - how do you know they are the most ammonia intolerant?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

BTW - My comment came across harsher than I meant. I just don't have any clue with the spectrophotometer means? I mean it might mean a lot - but - its at an extremely low level where ammonia is being measured. The seachem alert is not (according to seachem) - designed to do this - I do not know about the other methods used. I'm going to test their 'multitest' as soon as it arrives - (supposed to be today) - to see if indeed that test actually shows a decrease in ammonia. If not - all good - I have no positive seachem agenda.

Seachem claims it is designed to change from yellow to green at 0.02 ppm free ammonia, which is within the range Dan tested. If Seachem claimed otherwise to you on the phone, perhaps they need to read their own web site.

Seachem - Ammonia Alert

www.seachem.com

"As little as 0.02 mg/L of free ammonia will produce a greenish hue on the detector surface. This corresponds to a total ammonia (both ionized and free ammonia) of 0.25 mg/L in marine water at pH 8.3. In freshwater at pH 7.0, this corresponds to 3.6 mg/L total ammonia.

Free ammonia is much more toxic than ionized ammonia. As free ammonia, the ALERT color corresponds to about 0.05 mg/L, ALARM to about 0.2 mg/L, and TOXIC to about 0.5 mg/L. Administering a w"

A change from yellow to green is certainly visible to the human eye and is hsown on their web page. The spectrophotometer just allows quantitation of this change, and prevents the investigator bias of which is more yellow or less green or whatever.

One could presumably pick quite a number of different wavelengths to monitor this transition with a spectrophotometer. Dan used 603 nm, and he says he selected it as the peak of the absorbance of the product, making that the traditionally preferred wavelength to use for this purpose:
"The wavelength selected (603 nm) coincides with the absorbance of the dye when it reacts with ammonia. "

 

[MnFish1]

Seachem claims it is designed to change from yellow to green at 0.02 ppm free ammonia, which is within the range Dan tested. If Seachem claimed otherwise to you on the phone, perhaps they need to read their own web site.

Seachem - Ammonia Alert

www.seachem.com

"As little as 0.02 mg/L of free ammonia will produce a greenish hue on the detector surface. This corresponds to a total ammonia (both ionized and free ammonia) of 0.25 mg/L in marine water at pH 8.3. In freshwater at pH 7.0, this corresponds to 3.6 mg/L total ammonia.

Free ammonia is much more toxic than ionized ammonia. As free ammonia, the ALERT color corresponds to about 0.05 mg/L, ALARM to about 0.2 mg/L, and TOXIC to about 0.5 mg/L. Administering a w"

A change from yellow to green is certainly visible to the human eye and is hsown on their web page. The spectrophotometer just allows quantitation of this change, and prevents the investigator bias of which is more yellow or less green or whatever.

One could presumably pick quite a number of different wavelengths to monitor this transition with a spectrophotometer. Dan used 603 nm, and he says he selected it as the peak of the absorbance of the product, making that the traditionally preferred wavelength to use for this purpose:
"The wavelength selected (603 nm) coincides with the absorbance of the dye when it reacts with ammonia. "

Agreed. It needs more study. If you look at the numbers - at least to my 'look'. I have some questions. I'm not at all sure about the NM settings used - and I'm certainly not an expert at spectrophotometry.

As said - my plan is - to (using the recs on the tests) - test - whether the multitask actually shows an ammonia drop if it does not - it will certainly be reported

 

[MnFish1]

Agreed. It needs more study. If you look at the numbers - at least to my 'look'. I have some questions. I'm not at all sure about the NM settings used - and I'm certainly not an expert at spectrophotometry.

As said - my plan is - to (using the recs on the tests) - test - whether the multitask actually shows an ammonia drop if it does not - it will certainly be reported

My interpretation - is it could easily be 'noise'. I dont see a mean / SD of the values, and again not being critical of Dan personally - just trying to avoid the usual comments. There are no statical tests to show one thing or the other - but only an opinion (which may very well be correct

 

[Brian_68]

Seachem claims it is designed to change from yellow to green at 0.02 ppm free ammonia, which is within the range Dan tested. If Seachem claimed otherwise to you on the phone, perhaps they need to read their own web site.

Seachem - Ammonia Alert

www.seachem.com

"As little as 0.02 mg/L of free ammonia will produce a greenish hue on the detector surface. This corresponds to a total ammonia (both ionized and free ammonia) of 0.25 mg/L in marine water at pH 8.3. In freshwater at pH 7.0, this corresponds to 3.6 mg/L total ammonia.

Free ammonia is much more toxic than ionized ammonia. As free ammonia, the ALERT color corresponds to about 0.05 mg/L, ALARM to about 0.2 mg/L, and TOXIC to about 0.5 mg/L. Administering a w"

A change from yellow to green is certainly visible to the human eye and is hsown on their web page. The spectrophotometer just allows quantitation of this change, and prevents the investigator bias of which is more yellow or less green or whatever.

One could presumably pick quite a number of different wavelengths to monitor this transition with a spectrophotometer. Dan used 603 nm, and he says he selected it as the peak of the absorbance of the product, making that the traditionally preferred wavelength to use for this purpose:
"The wavelength selected (603 nm) coincides with the absorbance of the dye when it reacts with ammonia. "

So could the badge not be changing color after prime was added since prime converted the ammonia to it's non-toxic ionized form that seems to still be detected by the badge? How do we know the badge indication is still free ammonia after the addition of prime? Perhaps I missed that.