Prime Does Not Remove Ammonia

[MnFish1]

Well to move forward on a good track of intention how about this option as a brainstorm:

instead of a publicly posted experiment where someone intentionally stresses clownfish with ammonia boosting in an uncycled holding system, to chart symptomatology and timing of expression, and then the inspection on whether adding prime stops the symptoms— do the experiment anyway and only share the results among the people here in this thread who want to see it.

some form of private only share, such as a linked private chat.

That will save public excoriation for clownfish harm by folks who don’t mind one iota if they’re killed in a new tank by skip preps velvet or brook, hypocrisy noted lol, and it will be a final slam dunk on the matter as clear as day especially when viewed in context with the prior works by Dan and T.

I publicly advocate the test because it contributes to overall fish retention practice and knowledge where we currently just have to guess.


there must be a thousand ld50 tests on marine animals like Randy listed earlier. It’s no grave harm if some of the top reef experimentalists want to run the same lookup, in person.

we can honorably commit to never reveal who did the test or it can just be pinned on me, as a ghost tester, don’t mind. I want the info for the thousands of cycles we are about to produce in the coming years.

I would gladly release the results of the test and we can keep the tester ID anonymous

if I get a chance to do grave harm to the mouse that keeps digging in my wall every nite at 3 am, that will occur. There’s no way I can feel not bad about trapping the mouse with intent to get the others, and then stressing over two clownfish pushed to limits and honorably trying to remove them before harm after charting expression and regression of behaviors. done just one time for the life of my indirect reefing career, where all future intent is to make fish life in captivity better if possible.

I never intended to use clown-fish. I intended to use guppies acclimated to salt water (i.e the same as a saltwater tank). They would be needed guppies which I was considering trying as part of a food mix.

 

[Dan_P]

Hey Dan its this stuff right here-

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://fritzaquatics.com/products/fritzzyme-turbostart-900-saltwater&ved=2ahUKEwihpZLR-8D1AhX9IkQIHQgBD2QQFnoECAUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0G7eZEOQJiuHUlRzI3eRQ_

I tried this stuff and BioSpira in a flask. These bacteria get to work really fast. More reliable than Prime for removing ammonia . Were you thinking that some of the claims needed pressure testing?

I am currently growing BioSpira biofilms on sand, rock and plastic and then testing their ammonia consuming activity. Could do the same with Fritz Turbo if there is a concern.

Let me know.

 

[LRT]

I tried this stuff and BioSpira in a flask. These bacteria get to work really fast. More reliable than Prime for removing ammonia . Were you thinking that some of the claims needed pressure testing?

I am currently growing BioSpira biofilms on sand, rock and plastic and then testing their ammonia consuming activity. Could do the same with Fritz Turbo if there is a concern.

Let me know.

I've come to same conclusion as you when I've used Turbo in the past in quick start up tanks, it has been helpful to lower ammonia levels pretty fast. Ive confirmed that with api color kit. Ive also noticed that its made my seneye act a little wierd with fluctuation for first cpl days after adding the Turbo. Chalking that up to the whole slide thing. Was curious to see what you found with Turbo using your method of light measurement or if you have done any experiments with Turbo on that level?

 

[GARRIGA]

Without reading every post, will say this about Prime. Been using it for five or more years. Never bothered to test it. Just know from speaking with Seachem that it nutralizes ammonia and nitirtes for 48 hours as far as damaging fish. I've used it enough that I believe in the product. Now use it everytime I'm acclimating new fish so I don't concern myself with cutting acclimation short because I'm worried that lowering CO2 levels are going to rise ammonia to more lethal levels. I'm even consiering it as an alternative to filtration with TTM should that be needed. Granted that's something I'd like to first try with fish that are either on their way out and make good experimental subjects or perhaps inexpensive fish that aren't tolerant to ammonia. Although the latter I'm at a lost because ammonia tolerant fish tend to be cheap and not the other.

 

[MnFish1]

Some people were questioning how Prime does in Freshwater - so I did a little experiment - its in the experiment section. I would hope @Dan_P would add his there as well. (and everyone else who has done one)

Confirming - Prime does not seem to lower ammonia - Seachem Alert

Hypothesis: There will be no difference between Free ammonia levels as measured by a seachem alert badge in the presence of Prime (IN FRESH RODI WATER). Background: Numerous experiments have been done which seem to suggest Prime does not lower ammonia as measured by various tests in...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

Garriaga


thats what I sent Dan in a message a year ago


we gotta read all the pages, the catch is he may be addressing a huge ploy unbeknownst to reefers


unbeknownst due to their constant luck in hardly ever reaching 8.0+ pH as the masses. Their futile hovers collectively at ~7.8 has been saving nearly everyone / alternate stand in mechanism is the reason for the investigation


see if you can find where prime reduced ammonia, then run a side test to see if you can prove it can

 

[Dan_P]

I've come to same conclusion as you when I've used Turbo in the past in quick start up tanks, it has been helpful to lower ammonia levels pretty fast. Ive confirmed that with api color kit. Ive also noticed that its made my seneye act a little wierd with fluctuation for first cpl days after adding the Turbo. Chalking that up to the whole slide thing. Was curious to see what you found with Turbo using your method of light measurement or if you have done any experiments with Turbo on that level?

I used the salicyate method to track what the bottled bacteria were doing to ammonia level but recently thinking about “wouldn’t it be cool just to monitor an ammonia sensor instead”. In time I might have something to report.

Interesting observation about fluctuations with Seneye. Can you give me more detail about what you saw?

 

[brandon429]

I honestly feel this way: recall back in our minds every thread title regarding pH some has read. Especially ones here

were the majority above 8.0 asking for help in attaining the last two tenths

or were the 80% majority below 8.0 wanting higher pH

theyre being saved by an alternate mechanism possibly, by default from the way we tend to run reef tanks



and then maybe it’s a bunch of mis reports? Happens all day long for ammonia, who knows where the public trends in pH

 

[LRT]

I used the salicyate method to track what the bottled bacteria were doing to ammonia level but recently thinking about “wouldn’t it be cool just to monitor an ammonia sensor instead”. In time I might have something to report.

Interesting observation about fluctuations with Seneye. Can you give me more detail about what you saw?

The 2 times I used Turbo with Seneye I added Turbo directly to sump with seneye already in sump and not long after I noticed my ph and temp start swinging and really hard to keep calibration even after re calibration.
I think I have read in other threads it may possibly have something to do with sulfur in the turbo. Perhaps I should have waited a day to put seneye in sump after the Turbo had time to settle in idk.
But yessir all im waiting for now is this ammonia sensor you speak of! Brilliant.

 

[MnFish1]

I honestly feel this way: recall back in our minds every thread title regarding pH some has read. Especially ones here

were the majority above 8.0 asking for help in attaining the last two tenths

or were the 80% majority below 8.0 wanting higher pH

theyre being saved by an alternate mechanism possibly, by default from the way we tend to run reef tanks



and then maybe it’s a bunch of mis reports? Happens all day long for ammonia, who knows where the public trends in pH

I think this is correct. lets take the API and seachem ammonia tests as an example. Everyone panics when the ammonia shows 0.25 ppm (total). The safe range for Seachem alert is <0. 05 ppm. Even at pH 8.6 - the 'free ammonia' is below this level. On the other hand at pH 7.8, a Total ammonia of 1.5 ppm is still below the seachem alert level. Lets face it though - ammonia should be 0 - and safe and alert, etc are relative terms - and different species have different ammonia tolerances.

 

[MnFish1]

Great work Dan. It would be awesome to see this same experiment done with Fritz Turbo!

I believe Dr Reef did an experiment with the Seneye and bottled bacteria. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacteria-in-bottle-busting-myth-seneye-style.456820/

 

[LRT]

I believe Dr Reef did an experiment with the Seneye and bottled bacteria. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacteria-in-bottle-busting-myth-seneye-style.456820/

I haven't read through his thread but am curious to see now if Dr Reef has reported anything about Turbo affecting seneye slide.
To be fair and 100% honest. Both times I used Turbo as described i literally dumped a whole bottle of Turbo in sump in fairly close quarters to Seneye. Feeling like if I would have just allowed Turbo to circulate for few hours I may not have had any issues.

My interest here was more along the lines of totally taking the slide aspect out of the equation with Dan's measurement of light and tracking how fast Turbo actually does remove or detoxify ammonia. I think Dan's measurement would be best to measure that with little to no interference.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think this is correct. lets take the API and seachem ammonia tests as an example. Everyone panics when the ammonia shows 0.25 ppm (total). The safe range for Seachem alert is <0. 05 ppm. Even at pH 8.6 - the 'free ammonia' is below this level. On the other hand at pH 7.8, a Total ammonia of 1.5 ppm is still below the seachem alert level. Lets face it though - ammonia should be 0 - and safe and alert, etc are relative terms - and different species have different ammonia tolerances.

While I wouldn't "panic", I do suggest folks take corrective action at those levels. I give my suggestions and reasoning here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

Ammonia Concentration Guidelines
Because ammonia's toxic effects appear at levels significantly below those that are acutely lethal (0.09 to 3.35 ppm NH3-N or 1.3 to 50 ppm total NH4-N at pH 8.2), and because some organisms in a reef aquarium may be more sensitive than the few organisms that have been carefully studied, it is prudent to err on the side of caution when deciding what concentrations of ammonia to allow in a reef aquarium or related system.

My suggestion is to take some sort of corrective action if the total ammonia rises above 0.1 ppm. This suggestion is also made by Stephen Spotte in his authoritative text, Captive Seawater Fishes.6 Values in excess of 0.25 ppm total ammonia may require immediate treatment, preferably involving removal of all delicate (ammonia sensitive) organisms from the water containing the ammonia. Some of the possible actions to take are detailed in the following sections listed below.

 

[MnFish1]

While I wouldn't "panic", I do suggest folks take corrective action at those levels. I give my suggestions and reasoning here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

Ammonia Concentration Guidelines
Because ammonia's toxic effects appear at levels significantly below those that are acutely lethal (0.09 to 3.35 ppm NH3-N or 1.3 to 50 ppm total NH4-N at pH 8.2), and because some organisms in a reef aquarium may be more sensitive than the few organisms that have been carefully studied, it is prudent to err on the side of caution when deciding what concentrations of ammonia to allow in a reef aquarium or related system.

My suggestion is to take some sort of corrective action if the total ammonia rises above 0.1 ppm. This suggestion is also made by Stephen Spotte in his authoritative text, Captive Seawater Fishes.6 Values in excess of 0.25 ppm total ammonia may require immediate treatment, preferably involving removal of all delicate (ammonia sensitive) organisms from the water containing the ammonia. Some of the possible actions to take are detailed in the following sections listed below.

Yes we agree. 0 is the goal

 

[MnFish1]

Yes we agree. 0 is the goal

BTW - the main issue was the purported false 0.25 ammonia level - as compared to a 'real' .25 ammonia level

 

[MnFish1]

While I wouldn't "panic", I do suggest folks take corrective action at those levels. I give my suggestions and reasoning here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

Ammonia Concentration Guidelines
Because ammonia's toxic effects appear at levels significantly below those that are acutely lethal (0.09 to 3.35 ppm NH3-N or 1.3 to 50 ppm total NH4-N at pH 8.2), and because some organisms in a reef aquarium may be more sensitive than the few organisms that have been carefully studied, it is prudent to err on the side of caution when deciding what concentrations of ammonia to allow in a reef aquarium or related system.

My suggestion is to take some sort of corrective action if the total ammonia rises above 0.1 ppm. This suggestion is also made by Stephen Spotte in his authoritative text, Captive Seawater Fishes.6 Values in excess of 0.25 ppm total ammonia may require immediate treatment, preferably involving removal of all delicate (ammonia sensitive) organisms from the water containing the ammonia. Some of the possible actions to take are detailed in the following sections listed below.

BTW - I totally agree

 

[SMSREEF]

Dr. Reefs bottle bac thread was wrecked for ten pages by MN in exactly this manner, from the sidelines, its constantly unfortunate.


I prefer when his constant belittling of other peoples work comes in the form of his own test, from his own thread, his own findings, on a given matter.

see below for examples on how to wreck someone else’s efforts for fifteen pages:

Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

Did the online calc indicate to use one mil in the tank for your gallonage

www.reef2reef.com

Destructing a perfectly documented unassisted marine cycle.


What’s happening here and for the next ten pages exactly matched the first Prime thread, on repeat.

that’s a huge thread so maybe quote the post you may have issue with.

I think everyone only has the best interest of the hobby and our fish as the goal. Everyone on this thread included

 

[brandon429]

sure agreed. the back and forth gets rough at times. MN just posted the first review in the experiments forum good job man.

now the scope on what Prime does is expanding, good job.


page 97 onward though is the first documented example in reefing for an unassisted marine cycle, I found the gem and was guarding it from hungry ravages

idea: someone do a confirmational experiment, make my millennia

 

[Dan_P]

I haven't read through his thread but am curious to see now if Dr Reef has reported anything about Turbo affecting seneye slide.
To be fair and 100% honest. Both times I used Turbo as described i literally dumped a whole bottle of Turbo in sump in fairly close quarters to Seneye. Feeling like if I would have just allowed Turbo to circulate for few hours I may not have had any issues.

My interest here was more along the lines of totally taking the slide aspect out of the equation with Dan's measurement of light and tracking how fast Turbo actually does remove or detoxify ammonia. I think Dan's measurement would be best to measure that with little to no interference.

I don’t know what is in Turbo Start that might affect the sensor films, but will keep this in mind. Maybe pH fluctuated with all that bacteria media added to the sump. That would mess with the ammonia sensor.

 

[MnFish1]

that’s a huge thread so maybe quote the post you may have issue with.

I think everyone only has the best interest of the hobby and our fish as the goal. Everyone on this thread included

Thanks