Randy's Tank and Learn Thread

[tripdad]

And of course everything we read is true.....so that's one amazing pump, lol.

 

[rishma]

I have some experience with different turnover rates to the sump, including changes on a single tank so I could see the difference.

With very low rates like <1x per hour, the tank accumulated more waste, filtration was less effective. I could not really keep uneaten food, detritus, etc suspended long enough to move it to the sump. A film developed on water surface in the tank and sump. Also, at very low turnover the water level looked weird, too low, flowing into the overflow box. It was probably all fine, but I didn’t like it, and eventually went up in pump size.

I don’t have a magic number. I like to get as low as practical because it’s quieter and uses less energy, Recent tanks have been 3x-5x

 

[areefer01]

I have some experience with different turnover rates to the sump, including changes on a single tank so I could see the difference.

With very low rates like <1x per hour, the tank accumulated more waste, filtration was less effective. I could not really keep uneaten food, detritus, etc suspended long enough to move it to the sump. A film developed on water surface in the tank and sump. Also, at very low turnover the water level looked weird, too low, flowing into the overflow box. It was probably all fine, but I didn’t like it, and eventually went up in pump size.

I don’t have a magic number. I like to get as low as practical because it’s quieter and uses less energy, Recent tanks have been 3x-5x

There are various opinions on too fast or too slow sump turn over rates and some methods recommend a set amount. The way I view it is that there is a balance for our systems and the skimmer and/or refugium and/or both dictate the rates. Both need time to do their job efficiently. In this case it sounds like RHF has multiple silos doing specific things so each will need time.

Hard to say and it really depends on what system and belief you fall in.

 

[rishma]

There are various opinions on too fast or too slow sump turn over rates

Agree. I don’t have much of an opinion on it, just some experience and observation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have some experience with different turnover rates to the sump, including changes on a single tank so I could see the difference.

With very low rates like <1x per hour, the tank accumulated more waste, filtration was less effective. I could not really keep uneaten food, detritus, etc suspended long enough to move it to the sump. A film developed on water surface in the tank and sump. Also, at very low turnover the water level looked weird, too low, flowing into the overflow box. It was probably all fine, but I didn’t like it, and eventually went up in pump size.

I don’t have a magic number. I like to get as low as practical because it’s quieter and uses less energy, Recent tanks have been 3x-5x

Thanks. I can see the detritus issue if flow in the tank is not high enough to keep it suspended long enough to pass over the overflow, and that time needed needed will lengthen if the turnover is lower. :)

 

[Reefer1978]

Thanks. I can see the detritus issue if flow in the tank is not high enough to keep it suspended long enough to pass over the overflow, and that time needed needed will lengthen if the turnover is lower. :)

You can deal with detritus by dosing Phyto. And with your lower turnover rate, Phyto will be mostly in the tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Cooling System

Was working on the cooling system the past couple of days. I won't need cooling for a while (months, I hope), but I needed to get it working before I added water to that Brute can,

Here's the setup that I have used in the past:

1. Temperature controller for cooling is needed. I previously used a fairly expensive lab one from a company called Dynasense. The only ones they currently sell are more than a thousand dollars, which is out of the question. I plan to use an inkbird wi fi model that can control both heating and cooling.

2. When cooling is needed, the controller sends 110V to a solenoid connected to the cold tap water supply. (U.S. Solid 3/4" Brass Electric Solenoid Valve 110V AC Normally Closed Non-potable Water, air, Diesel). It is normally closed solenoid that only opens when it gets power, and only stays open if power continues to flow. I mistakenly got 3/4" female pipe thread connections while the supply is 1/2", so I needed some bushing adapters to connect it. Amazon, $27.

3. I wanted to be able to close it off from the water supply when there's no reason for cooling, and to slow down the flow when I am using it, so I got a valve to put between it and the water supply. $12 from amazon. Same 3/4" mistake and so needed more more bushings, but this is the one:

4. I connected some 1/4" ID plastic tubing to the solenoid and then over to the tank. This line was actually still in place from the old days, running along the ceiling of the basement. It is insulated with the usual foam pipe tubes to prevent condensation on it when operating in summer. Note: do not trust plastic tubing connections that are 20+ years old. More on that later. lol

5. At the sump, the tubing transitions to a large coil of 1/4" OD polyethylene (PEX) tubing, 328 feet long. $32 from Amazon. Used a brass coupling and hose clamps between the 1/4" ID and the 1/4" OD. Here's the guts of the system. Most of that coil is in the bottom and sides of the second Brute can in the chain. The other thing in that can is the skimmer near the top (helps provide good flow around the coils), and a cut down, upside down laundry basket to position the skimmer at just the right depth, leaving space under and around it for the coils. Zip ties help keep the coil from getting hopelessly tangled, or worse, kinked. A kink would be a big problem, blocking flow. Laundry basket from Ace.

6. The other end of the PEX goes out through a small hole in the basement window frame just above this Brute can, and out to the yard. I use it to keep a little pond filled and to water plants all summer. The backyard slopes down some from the house, so all I need to do is have enough PEX showing (now about 10') to enter an open garden hose end, and then I can just move the hose around the yard to where it is needed most at the time. Since I would be using water for these purposes anyway, it's a win-win.

7. The reason I needed to get a trial run on this system now is that without water in the coils, I was concerned the whole coil/laundry basket setup would float and be hard to deal with when water is in the can.

8. Trial run, water comes out the outside end. Big success. No hidden kinks or clogs. But then I hear something in the furnace room. Fail. An old connection between two sections of 1/4" ID tubing has cracked and water is spraying out. After shutting things down, I managed to get to fixed. Subsequent running of the system seemed fine. I'll do more trial runs as I get close to needing cooling, but for now the coils are filled and unkinked and things seem good.

9. In operation, the goal will be to close down the valve so that the water exiting the system is fairly close to tank temp, meaning I'm not using any more water flow than needed. That also ensures that the potential for overcooling due to a solenoid failure is low, and hopefully would not be more than the heaters could keep up with. It never happened on the old tank, and worked perfectly. Another failsafe is that the tank could not possibly get colder than the tap water. In much of the summer, when cooling is needed, it's not killer cold.

I know that such a system would not work in some places where the tap water is too warm, but here it does meet the need.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You can deal with detritus by dosing Phyto.

How does dosing phyto reduce detritus?

I do plan to dose phyto later when there are filter feeders present.

 

[TeraHz]

Cooling System


2. When cooling is needed, the controller sends 110V to a solenoid connected to the cold tap water supply. (U.S. Solid 3/4" Brass Electric Solenoid Valve 110V AC Normally Closed Non-potable Water, air, Diesel). It is normally closed solenoid that only opens when it gets power, and only stays open if power continues to flow. I mistakenly got 3/4" female pipe thread connections while the supply is 1/2", so I needed some bushing adapters to connect it. Amazon, $27.

3. I wanted to be able to close it off from the water supply when there's no reason for cooling, and to slow down the flow when I am using it, so I got a valve to put between it and the water supply. $12 from amazon. Same 3/4" mistake and so needed more more bushings, but this is the one:

Is brass OK in a reef tank? I thought we should be sticking to Stainless Steel or Plastic.

 

[Mark Hyman]

The IO I just bought from Amazon was $67 for 200 gallon box, with free 2 day delivery. The 50 gallon bag is $21 and can be delivered free same day.

Same vendor, Red Sea 55 gallon blue bucket is $47 for 55 gallon bucket, and takes longer to arrive (5 days).

Hi Randy- great to see this thread, I've appreciated your chem advice while getting back into the hobby after a long hiatus.

You've probably considered this, but IO and most other salts (other than Brightwell) calculate their gallons/container at a lower salinity than you'll probably run. For example, IO uses 1.022 sg. When I factored that in and did the math on the best prices I could easily obtain, IO "160" buckets (actually mixes to ~140 gal) have still always been the cheapest, with the "200" box (actually ~175 gal) close behind. Most other salts run about 30-40% higher, with TM Pro usually leading the pack at about 75% higher. In case it's ever an issue, I've found that Chewy and PetSmart usually price match Amazon on IO, and PetSmart can be ordered for same day local store pickup in a pinch.

 

[rishma]

Thanks. I can see the detritus issue if flow in the tank is not high enough to keep it suspended long enough to pass over the overflow, and that time needed needed will lengthen if the turnover is lower. :)

I found that even fairly significant flow didn’t keep particles in turbulent suspension for say…an hour :)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is brass OK in a reef tank? I thought we should be sticking to Stainless Steel or Plastic.

It is not acceptable in the salt water. I used it for a tubing to tubing connecter on tap water that never mixes with tank water, and the coupling is before the tubing enters the salt water. :)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I found that even fairly significant flow didn’t keep particles in turbulent suspension for say…an hour :)

OK, thanks. :)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi Randy- great to see this thread, I've appreciated your chem advice while getting back into the hobby after a long hiatus.

You've probably considered this, but IO and most other salts (other than Brightwell) calculate their gallons/container at a lower salinity than you'll probably run. For example, IO uses 1.022 sg. When I factored that in and did the math on the best prices I could easily obtain, IO "160" buckets (actually mixes to ~140 gal) have still always been the cheapest, with the "200" box (actually ~175 gal) close behind. Most other salts run about 30-40% higher, with TM Pro usually leading the pack at about 75% higher. In case it's ever an issue, I've found that Chewy and PetSmart usually price match Amazon on IO, and PetSmart can be ordered for same day local store pickup in a pinch.

Thanks. :)

Yes, I get that salinity is a complication is cost estimates. In my situation, the IO 200 box is nearly identical to the buckets and then I'm not wasting all that plastic on the buckets, of which I have no use. Trying to be environmentally conscious.

I also like the 50 bags in the box since I can typically use 2 bags (or nearly 2) to make 2 Brute cans of water at a time, without measuring anything.

Since I'm mixing the new salt water in clean cans and using it fast without settling, I'm getting the usual cloudiness. I'm experimenting with adding muriatic acid to reduce the alk and dissolve the particles. I've advised folks on this for years, but never did it myself. :)

 

[TeraHz]

It is not acceptable in the salt water. I used it for a tubing to tubing connecter on tap water that never mixes with tank water, and the coupling is before the tubing enters the salt water. :)

Oh, I get it. You're using tap water to cool the tank via tubing that goes through the tank water. Thanks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Oh, I get it. You're using tap water to cool the tank via tubing that goes through the tank water. Thanks.

Yes. :)

 

[twentyleagues]

The cooling set up is a "cool" idea (pun intended). I did something similar with heat on my reef years ago. Obviously I had to have a little different equipment used 1/2" pex around 200' in a 100g stock tank fed from my water heater through a ranco pump/controller (heat pump) back to the water heater. Did a good job with only a little bit of temp drift. Was more "efficient" in cost for operation as it was cheaper for natural gas than electricity.

 

[Reefer1978]

How does dosing phyto reduce detritus?

I do plan to dose phyto later when there are filter feeders present.

They seem to consume it. I had a nice 3/8 thick layer of detritus in my sump after a year of running the tank fish only. I started heavy dosing Tetraselmis Phyto, within 3 months sump was clean, I could see glass again.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Air and Humidity Handling in Fish Room

Excessive humidity is a serious risk for mold and rust, and fish rooms with skimmers and open topped sumps and refugia are a big contributor to humidity.

This section details how I handled it in the past and am currently setting it up again.

1. The fish room has the 4 Brute can sump/refugia setup, 3 Brute cans for RO/DI DI, 2 for new salt water, and the skimmer. All big possible sources of water. The room is in the basement, below the tank. The RO/DI and new salt water are in closed Brute cans and do not need anything further to prevent humidity release.

2. There are currently 2 dehumidifiers in the basement, but none in the fish room (and none currently planned for it).

3. The fish room has a basement window to the back yard, with 3 glass panes. Two panes were replaced by wood during the first tank days, and are still there with holes in it for ventilation equipment (removed equipment but plugged holes).

4. In the current plan, one of the holes (4") will be occupied by a 6" exhaust fan from Amazon ($29) with a reducing adapter from 6" to 4". On the outside is an old plastic guard to keep pests out that was there previously.

5. I plan to cut a 6" circular piece of wood to plug the interior end of that fan, and through it will cut 4 holes for cheap 1" conduit hose so that all of the exhaust air is sucked through the hoses. $15 from amazon.

6. The other end of each of the 4 hoses will go through a 1" hole cut into the top of each of the 4 Brute cans in the sump refugium setups. That will pull air out of the Brute cans, keeping it fresh and oxygenated and normal basement CO2 levels even in a closed can, while sending all of the humidity outside.

7. The only tricky one is the skimmer can. The skimmer sticks up a couple of inches through a largish round hole cut into the top of that can (easy access for skimmer cup cleaning without removing the Brute lid, and needed to be that high to set the water depth outside the skimmer). I'll show pictures of it when the skimmer gets set up and working, but the plan is to just put an inverted cardboard box over the top of it, and the hose that runs through a different hole into the Brute will be sucking air in through the gaps around the box bottom. That keeps the skimmer using fresh air and exhausts the humidity. At least that's the plan. We will have to see how well that all works as I've never tried to put a skimmer into such a situation.

8. One of the other 4" holes in the window wood section also has an old plastic grid guard on the outside, and I plan to add window screen to the inside. That will allow fresh air to be entering the room. The humidity in the room should not get higher than the outside air. In Massachusetts, the air entering will be adequately dry most of the year.

9. In winter, the air entering the room may bring the room down too much in temp. The fish room is heated by the bare hot water heating system pipes passing along the ceiling on their way upstairs (I removed the old insulation years ago), but it may still get too cold. There are electric baseboard heaters from a previous owner who had a teenager living in the fish room, but we have never used them and I don't want to. I think in shoulder seasons I might plug the fresh air opening (then drawing air from elsewhere around the basement in this leaky 115 year old house and out the exhaust system) and during the coldest months when the house is very dry already, I may disconnect the exhaust fan from the hole to outside and just let it run and exhaust inside.

It's not fully set up yet, but I'll show pictures when it is.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

They seem to consume it. I had a nice 3/8 thick layer of detritus in my sump after a year of running the tank fish only. I started heavy dosing Tetraselmis Phyto, within 3 months sump was clean, I could see glass again.

OK, thanks. I don't understand how phyto can consume detritus, but I understand the idea, and plan to implement it for other reasons anyway. :)