Randy's Tank and Learn Thread

[rtparty]

You mean for moving water around the fish room?

I now have a Jebao dcp 2500 for ro/di to new salt water container and use the backup return Jebao dep 8500 for making 88 gallons of new salt water at once, plus assorted new and old powerheads and other small pumps (for uses such as increased flow in my refugium).

For moving water or even to empty the Brute cans if you need to. It pulls from the very bottom and is super convenient for emptying things

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

For moving water or even to empty the Brute cans if you need to. It pulls from the very bottom and is super convenient for emptying things

Great, thanks!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Plumbing Issues

Looks like the choice I made to use 4” corrugated flexible drainage pipe to get from the top of the house foundation down to the sump was a bad idea.

It has a seam that appears to have cracked a bit at the tight curves, letting some water leak out.

Guess I’ll bite the bullet and glue 2” schedule 40 pvc into place. It’s a tricky place to work and I’ll have to cut the pipe to ever remove it, but at least leaking should not be an issue.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

TBS Rock Delivery and Zooplankton Idea

This might be out of the box thinking, or it might be crazy talk, so let’s have a discussion!

Reefs are a lot more than nitrifying bacteria and corals. While most reef creatures are benthic (associated with the bottom) even the water is far more than just bacteria. Of course folks often discuss phytoplankton that is fairly easy to diy and dose to reef tanks for various reasons.

But what about zooplankton? Those are the many creatures that live in the water and eat things like phyto. Zooplankton can play a big role in the food web and are a good food source for filter feeders such as corals.

Most zooplankton are not just going to pop into existence in a reef tank. We need to add them somehow. There are commercial products, but I do not know much about them and am skeptical.

TBS keeps their rock and sand in real ocean water, so the holding tanks will have zooplankton in it. I expect the incidental water that comes with the rock will have zooplankton.

TBS advises to discard the water that comes with the rock and sand. I’m presuming this is because of the likelihood of ammonia and the potential for hydrogen sulfide. Is that correct, TBS, or am I missing something else?

@LiverockRocks

Assuming that is the reasoning, I’m considering not discarding the water, but keeping it as a source of zooplankton. I’ll be getting quite a lot, I expect. 9 buckets first delivery and maybe half that the second delivery. Perhaps we are talking about 20-30 gallons of water. Just a guess.

I’m confident I can smell if hydrogen sulfide is an issue. I would discard any such water.

Ammonia I can measure. I expect it will be elevated in the shipped water, and also likely in the tank after this first delivery.

Here’s the thought. Keep this shipped water in another tank and/or the buckets it comes in. Keep it aerated, maybe even add some of the small rocks from my existing refugia to maybe nitrify. But after the tank hits a decently low level of ammonia (day1? Day 3? 5? more?) slowly add this water back to the tank system at a rate that does not raise ammonia too much.

The second round of rock delivery a week or so after the first will bring in more sensitive organisms so I need to be more careful, but the tank will also have a more established nitrifying capability by then (that’s the whole premise of the two stage delivery system) and so might well be able to handle more ocean water without a problem, just as folks do who regularly dose ammonia to reef tanks.

Ultimately, I’m thinking of dosing phyto and pods, and this zooplankton addition might help diversify that assembly of organisms.

Of course I could collect local ocean water, and have, but that’s a bit of a bother and the local zooolankton in Massachusetts might be fairly different than from warmer areas.

Is this sensible?
Worth the effort?
Just crazy talk?

Thanks for any comments.

 

[Miami Reef]

That’s a good idea. If you don’t have fish, why does it matter about a small ammonia spike? The bacteria and organisms will quickly consume it anyway, no?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That’s a good idea. If you don’t have fish, why does it matter about a small ammonia spike? The bacteria and organisms will quickly consume it anyway, no?

That’s true, but even the base rock and sand has some higher creatures. I don’t know what their ammonia tolerance is.

 

[mjszos]

Plumbing Issues

Looks like the choice I made to use 4” corrugated flexible drainage pipe to get from the top of the house foundation down to the sump was a bad idea.

It has a seam that appears to have cracked a bit at the tight curves, letting some water leak out.

Guess I’ll bite the bullet and glue 2” schedule 40 pvc into place. It’s a tricky place to work and I’ll have to cut the pipe to ever remove it, but at least leaking should not be an issue.

How about a union with 2x ball valves on either side? This way if you ever need to work on it you can split the plumbing in half, but still have the ability to stop water from moving through it in the event of any problems via the valves.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

How about a union with 2x ball valves on either side? This way if you ever need to work on it you can split the plumbing in half, but still have the ability to stop water from moving through it in the event of any problems via the valves.

Thanks.

My main issues are it’s hard to work between the foundation and floor above, and the fact that any fitting appreciably bigger in diameter than the 2” pipe cannot fit through the hole in the floor.

I can stop the water flow by turning off the return pump, or if I need to stop every drop that might slowly come down the overflows, I can lower the water level in the overflows below the intakes. :)

 

[tripdad]

I collected zooplankton off Galveston with my daughter when she was in school at A&M Galveston. I had zero luck propagating it in the tank. I'm assuming I failed to provide the conditions it needed. Now I stick to ones I know can survive like various pods. I hope you can be succesful as I think it would benefit the hobby if someone could figure it out. I had no "bad" effects, maybe just luck?

 

[mjszos]

Thanks.

My main issues are it’s hard to work between the foundation and floor above, and the fact that any fitting appreciably bigger in diameter than the 2” pipe cannot fit through the hole in the floor.

I can stop the water flow by turning off the return pump, or if I need to stop every drop that might slowly come down the overflows, I can lower the water level in the overflows below the intakes. :)

Ah yeah this makes sense. I was envisioning basically a piece of plumbing that could be removed between the floors which would prevent you from having to cut anything, but if 2" is your limit then you'll run into either flow constraints or unions that will compound the problem.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I collected zooplankton off Galveston with my daughter when she was in school at A&M Galveston. I had zero luck propagating it in the tank. I'm assuming I failed to provide the conditions it needed. Now I stick to ones I know can survive like various pods. I hope you can be succesful as I think it would benefit the hobby if someone could figure it out. I had no "bad" effects, maybe just luck?

How large of organisms were you collecting? I’m thinking of very small/microscopic ones.

 

[rtparty]

Yes to ocean water. I can’t see there being enough ammonia to bother with. I don’t know anything about hydrogen sulfide and you’d be my source if I had a question about it so refer to yourself for that answer

What about flex PVC instead of schedule 40?

 

[LiverockRocks Verified Sponsor]

TBS Rock Delivery and Zooplankton Idea

This might be out of the box thinking, or it might be crazy talk, so let’s have a discussion!

Reefs are a lot more than nitrifying bacteria and corals. While most reef creatures are benthic (associated with the bottom) even the water is far more than just bacteria. Of course folks often discuss phytoplankton that is fairly easy to diy and dose to reef tanks for various reasons.

But what about zooplankton? Those are the many creatures that live in the water and eat things like phyto. Zooplankton can play a big role in the food web and are a good food source for filter feeders such as corals.

Most zooplankton are not just going to pop into existence in a reef tank. We need to add them somehow. There are commercial products, but I do not know much about them and am skeptical.

TBS keeps their rock and sand in real ocean water, so the holding tanks will have zooplankton in it. I expect the incidental water that comes with the rock will have zooplankton.

TBS advises to discard the water that comes with the rock and sand. I’m presuming this is because of the likelihood of ammonia and the potential for hydrogen sulfide. Is that correct, TBS, or am I missing something else?

@LiverockRocks

Assuming that is the reasoning, I’m considering not discarding the water, but keeping it as a source of zooplankton. I’ll be getting quite a lot, I expect. 9 buckets first delivery and maybe half that the second delivery. Perhaps we are talking about 20-30 gallons of water. Just a guess.

I’m confident I can smell if hydrogen sulfide is an issue. I would discard any such water.

Ammonia I can measure. I expect it will be elevated in the shipped water, and also likely in the tank after this first delivery.

Here’s the thought. Keep this shipped water in another tank and/or the buckets it comes in. Keep it aerated, maybe even add some of the small rocks from my existing refugia to maybe nitrify. But after the tank hits a decently low level of ammonia (day1? Day 3? 5? more?) slowly add this water back to the tank system at a rate that does not raise ammonia too much.

The second round of rock delivery a week or so after the first will bring in more sensitive organisms so I need to be more careful, but the tank will also have a more established nitrifying capability by then (that’s the whole premise of the two stage delivery system) and so might well be able to handle more ocean water without a problem, just as folks do who regularly dose ammonia to reef tanks.

Ultimately, I’m thinking of dosing phyto and pods, and this zooplankton addition might help diversify that assembly of organisms.

Of course I could collect local ocean water, and have, but that’s a bit of a bother and the local zooolankton in Massachusetts might be fairly different than from warmer areas.

Is this sensible?
Worth the effort?
Just crazy talk?

Thanks for any comments.

Ooooo...I like the thought of this.

Yes, the holding system runs on 100% natural sea water collected above the farm. It is consistently supplied fresh water each harvest and it has no trouble keeping delicate lifeforms alive long term. There are no filters, no UV and no skimmer on this system. It is topped off with RODI. *note, we monitor Red Tide activity and do not harvest when it is present in our area.

It is a good practice, in general, to discard shipping water. Experience, common sense, factoring variables, visual cues and smell, all play into your scenario of using this water as a means of introducing zooplankton.

• Hydrogen sulfide, imo, is not a concern given the health of the sand and travel time. Jocelyn is extremely picky about sand harvesting and its care while we hold it.
• Ammonia is not a concern either. TBS began shipping rock submerged long ago for the sole purpose of keeping micro and macro-organisms alive during transportation. Why go to all the work harvesting, careful handling, careful holding only to kill off beneficial hikers by taking them off life support during travel. Our products are treated as you would an expensive coral or sought after fish. Healthy rock shipped with life support will have little to no die off. In the rare event of delayed travel during hot temperatures or extremely delayed travel, then of course there is a potential for trouble depending on what lifeforms are on the rock.

Sand is shipped with little water and that water will be very silty. I think the live rock shipping water, especially base rock, would be perfect for your experiment. Why not give it a try?

*disclaimer, we do not recommend adding shipping water to an aquarium. Best practice is to discard it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Ooooo...I like the thought of this.

Yes, the holding system runs on 100% natural sea water collected above the farm. It is consistently supplied fresh water each harvest and it has no trouble keeping delicate lifeforms alive long term. There are no filters, no UV and no skimmer on this system. It is topped off with RODI. *note, we monitor Red Tide activity and do not harvest when it is present in our area.

It is a good practice, in general, to discard shipping water. Experience, common sense, factoring variables, visual cues and smell, all play into your scenario of using this water as a means of introducing zooplankton.

• Hydrogen sulfide, imo, is not a concern given the health of the sand and travel time. Jocelyn is extremely picky about sand harvesting and its care while we hold it.
• Ammonia is not a concern either. TBS began shipping rock submerged long ago for the sole purpose of keeping micro and macro-organisms alive during transportation. Why go to all the work harvesting, careful handling, careful holding only to kill off beneficial hikers by taking them off life support during travel. Our products are treated as you would an expensive coral or sought after fish. Healthy rock shipped with life support will have little to no die off. In the rare event of delayed travel during hot temperatures or extremely delayed travel, then of course there is a potential for trouble depending on what lifeforms are on the rock.

Sand is shipped with little water and that water will be very silty. I think the live rock shipping water, especially base rock, would be perfect for your experiment. Why not give it a try?

*disclaimer, we do not recommend adding shipping water to an aquarium. Best practice is to discard it.

Great, thanks for the info!

 

[tripdad]

How large of organisms were you collecting? I’m thinking of very small/microscopic ones.

Microscope was needed to see most of them. You could tell water clarity was off with naked eye but not what things were. And I just have an old science class scope so maybe a 50x lens, not near it right now to check. We used a home made collector similar to that she was using on the schools research boat. We just collected from chest high water, not from a boat out in the Gulf like the pros do. There was plenty of life in the bottles, I just could not sustain it at home. I had no idea what to feed it, I used a commercial phyto. Might have been too big of cell size? I'm not a scientist so I kinda just try stuff from my own ideas. Some research papers are just over my head.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Microscope was needed to see most of them. You could tell water clarity was off with naked eye but not what things were. And I just have an old science class scope so maybe a 50x lens, not near it right now to check. We used a home made collector similar to that she was using on the schools research boat. We just collected from chest high water, not from a boat out in the Gulf like the pros do. There was plenty of life in the bottles, I just could not sustain it at home. I had no idea what to feed it, I used a commercial phyto. Might have been too big of cell size? I'm not a scientist so I kinda just try stuff from my own ideas. Some research papers are just over my head.

Ok, thanks.

I’ll be treating this as an experiment, and hope for the best, but I would not be surprised if the long term results are similar to what you observed.

 

[Tom.E]

Ok, thanks.

I’ll be treating this as an experiment, and hope for the best, but I would not be surprised if the long term results are similar to what you observed.

If your looking for protozoans and rotifers, scoop up some wet sand between the high/low tide mark and some sand in knee deep water. A small plastic tupperware bowl shouldn't get you in any trouble.

The only issue I've had with starting a new tank with NSW is lots of diatoms.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

If your looking for protozoans and rotifers, scoop up some wet sand between the high/low tide mark and some sand in knee deep water. A small plastic tupperware bowl shouldn't get you in any trouble.

The only issue I've had with starting a new tank with NSW is lots of diatoms.

Thanks. I typically have dosed silicate so diatoms don’t concern me. :)

 

[KrisReef]

Exhaust Octopus

One of the important aspects of fish room design is ensuring humidity does not get high enough to cause mold. Of course, one can do that with dehumidifiers, but that can take a large amount of electricity.

The option I use also ensures fresh air is circulating through the room and the skimmer.

The two pictures below show an exhaust fan (6” in line, but in retrospect, 4” might have been better. It is inexpensive from Amazon and uses DC flow control. It exhausts out a typical dryer vent ((using a 6” to 4” adapter),

In the open end, I inserted some packing foam cut to fit, with 4 holes through it for 1” ID pond tubing. Any tubing will work. Duct tape holds the foam in place.

The other end of each piece of tubing enters a matching hole in each of the 4 Brute can tops.

Thus, all water is enclosed and yet stays fresh and also prevents condensation on refugium bulbs, etc.

The flow need not be high at all. Just enough to keep the air in each can high in O2 and low in CO2 (especially the skimmer can (more on skimming later). Note that I left the inverted cardboard box off the skimmer can top to see it. It is back in place now.

This is an interesting idea!
(Quadropus?) :upside-down-face:

 

[KrisReef]

Delta Cargo Total Fail

Looks like I spoke too soon. Both TBS and I talked to them today and were assured it would be on the afternoon flight.

Now tracking says tomorrow, and the cargo rep says, “sorry, the system was rejecting it” so it did not go.

Are you kidding me? What does that even mean? Why did no one even contact us?

TSA Strikes again?