Rant... I hate the direction the hobby has gone

When a fix can cost dozen to hundreds of dollars to implement and thousands of dollars and the emotions for dear pets if it goes wrong, "just try it and see" isn't very feasible. Not everyone has spare tanks and the time to do their own experiments.

And in the high end realm, every experiment even if it doesn't kill anything can ruin months of your work by making corals brown.
That’s a good perspective, thank you for that. I think somewhere between decision paralysis and trying anything is a good approach. I’ve just noticed people asking for help, then shooting down every suggestion that gets made. It seems in that case they made up their mind already but want approval. Or nothing gets done at all because of being too nervous to try something new.
 
Sadly, there is no reason to, except for fun, to write a book. There is almost no fun at all involved in publishing a book, and ow once it is published, there isn't really a distribution channel. Heck, even articles are not really read anymore, and there are hardly any places to publish such articles - I struggle with the utility of doing the work of writing an article.
One of the problems with videos is that you can make a video with terrible information and great production values. Trying to take information from a video is problematic, because scanning a video is more difficult than scanning an article - there is a reason science papers are not videos.
Community size is also a problem - when communities get big, it becomes very difficult to separate the signal from the noise.
We started the Reef Beef Podcast to talk about these issues and address these issues - and, we are not after likes, clicks, or views.
We started www.reefretreat.org specifically to fill holes like those the OP points out.
 
I can't help but wonder how many get sucked into that mindset because there's are so many videos that lead them to think that? Im not into video learning or even watching them much so this is just speculation on my part having seen a few unbelievable tanks pimping a product. I think the last time i went to YouTube to actually learn something was when I was putting a trigger kit in a handgun and my pieces went flying and being the idiot I am I couldn't figure out how to get everything reassembled. Still images and text are my thing but that is a mindset that is fading fast I think.
I can remember what set me off.
A friend got a small tank and after stopping in over a few weeks I found I was the only person cleaning the glass and was asking how he tops the water off as it was always low and annoyingly splashing lol.
He left me with a comment that never left my mind. He mentioned always loving my FW systems but when compared to reefing it was like antenna tv to HD.
The first visit to the LFS is what really got me though and it wasn't long before i had a custom 120 built and in the meantime thoroughly scoured youtube to learn as much as possible.
 
Maybe not so much for reefing, but for me, I got sucked into retro video game collecting because I saw people do it on YouTube and thought, "Yeah, I could do that."
Oh boy..I am right there with you. I have a Commodore 64 sitting here, an intellivision, and several other gaming systems from back in the day. I'd love to collect old vintage pinball games, and arcade games too, but just not enough time, money or room.
 
Oh boy..I am right there with you. I have a Commodore 64 sitting here, an intellivision, and several other gaming systems from back in the day. I'd love to collect old vintage pinball games, and arcade games too, but just not enough time, money or room.
Right there with you on the arcade games! Been wanting to build an Mame arcade machine forever now, but I'll probably build one when I get a basement dedicated to the space! Don't have anything crazy old? I do have a complete in-box Sears Tele-Games System (Atari 2600 that Sears made) and some older DOS PC games. I do find myself dabbling in C64 and other older PC games from time to time. Definitely a hobby I have spent too much time researching and money into, haha
 
Right there with you on the arcade games! Been wanting to build an Mame arcade machine forever now, but I'll probably build one when I get a basement dedicated to the space! Don't have anything crazy old? I do have a complete in-box Sears Tele-Games System (Atari 2600 that Sears made) and some older DOS PC games. I do find myself dabbling in C64 and other older PC games from time to time. Definitely a hobby I have spent too much time researching and money into, haha
We had a pong game (Montgomery Ward) before we got the Atari.

1769629702807.png



Also had a large collection of handheld football, baseball, basketball, etc.
This was our "gaming" in the 70's and into the 80's

1769629558944.png


"I Took a Lickin' From a Chicken" and of course a Merlin.

Cousin had "digital derby" - it was amazing.
1769629819535.png


Also mini console pac-man and some other cool stuff.
 
That is a nice challenge card to play but not sure I would say that is required. There are hobbyist here who had long dry spells and still give advise. Maybe what is more important is staying in ones lane and giving advise on that. If and when it is challenged just have the data to back it up.

There is a lot of anecdotal / personal accounts in answers on social media which is probably why they have that policy.

Yes, that's complicated. For example, I've gone decades at a time without a personal aquarium at all....but I managed a public aquarium for 35 years. I had a dozen or so "mini aquariums" when I was working on a book on the subject, but now, I have a single 15 gallon AIO with softies - not something I'd brag about, or want to show pictures of (grin). Then again, I stay in my lane and don't give advice on reefs....
 
"Science has moved on"
The fundamental laws of Chemistry and Biology haven't changed and that is the basis of reefing. The biggest problem is not understanding those and trying to force nature with an Apex controller and a Youtube video
You completely missread my comment..
But keep on reading what you want to read:)
Chemesty and biology havent changed. True.

But our understanding of it has.

Oh and btw. I dont own an apex and my acros are doing wonderfull.

Im wondering where this spitefull comment of yours came from...
 
I feel like this name thing has been overblown, it has been a part of the hobby since I started in 2009. I remember zoas, chalices, and sps all having branded names, maybe it has become more extreme, but has definitely been part of the hobby for at least the 17 years I have been in it.
 
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I don’t spend much time thinking about most of what has been discussed here. I know how to gain information and understanding…either from somebody else or through my own experiences. So everything else is just background noise.

I just miss halide-lit tanks.
 
Curious if you could list some?


Overall I think the hobby is fine, somethings are better from example: I had the first Neptune Aquacontroller in 2000 and it worked, however the new Apex I got last year is a huge improvement. Berghia N. destroyed my aiptasia problem, 10 years ago not sure I remember hearing about them?

I still use Julian Sprung books and some others and the information is still perfectly relevant and outstanding.
image.jpg
Nice library! I had the same books.
 
I am not trying to be overly negative or elitist. And I certainly could be wrong about some things. But I honestly hate the direction this industry/hobby has gone in the past 6-8 years. I have been in the hobby for over 15 years and I feel like things have degraded considerably...

1. Quality of information. This is by far my biggest complaint! I am so sick and tired of bs fish influencers that come on YouTube and think they know ball. The content is mostly slop and has very little value. I am sure there are good YouTubers, but when i got into this hobby, the best source was a good book. Especially if you are just starting out. I am not aware of any QUALITY books that have been released in the past 5 years(please let me know that I am wrong, I really hope that I am). Most recs I have seen for books still recommend books that are over 10 years old. We have way better technology, it would be nice if someone credible could discuss how to use it.

2. Availability of livestock. We all know the Hawaii closure was a massive blow to the hobby. Other closures like Indo torches, or Fiji liverock have been significant as well but the lack of diversity seems to be increasing. What bothers me though, is that there seems to be a huge lack of cohesion in this industry to fight legislation. In the reptile world, this is a huge part of the hobby and it has faired(mostly) positive. Organizations like PIJAC have luckily done a lot but the average aquarium owner seems to be blissfully unaware or unbothered by possible legal issues. Talk to the bird people about the Wild Bird Conservation Act and see how well things worked out for them. Better yet, read about the proposed Saving Nemo Act...

3. The decline in worthwhile events. Ever since MACNA's dissolution, there have been only a couple remaining events. MACNA was so special since it was the yearly "state of the hobby" if you will. We got to see new product releases, crazy imports, and meet influential figures in the industry. There was also an education component where scientists presented research and we got to hear seminars from credible people. Now, events are numerous and decentralized to extract as much money from the vendors and attendees as possible. Aquashella, is targeted to beginner hobbyists and gives their speaking engagements to Aquarium Influencers that have really no value besides their name recognition(sorry not sorry). That isn't to say that these events don't have a place in the community, I think its good there is a beginner friendly conference people can go to and learn more about the hobby. But an event that is catered towards advanced hobbyists is desperately needed.

4. Named corals, defective products, and general shadiness. Those of us who have been around long enough remember when a coral was the name of its species. Naming a coral some stupid name then selling a quarter inch frag for 80 bucks is ridiculous. I understand why vendors do it. If I had a shop I'd do it too. But it is frustrating nonetheless. Companies like Red Sea that charge astronomical amounts of money for tanks that are known to leak(go find the dozens of threads including mine talking about it) and then seemingly do nothing to resolve the problem is incredibly discouraging. Look at the LiveAquaria debacle. That company use to be the face of the industry. If you wanted online fish that were gonna get there healthy, that was the place. But after corporate buyouts, the company withered away rife with scandals. I am tired of overpriced crap that breaks. I am tired of livestock that arrives half-dead. I am tired of lies and deceit from companies that I have spent THOUSANDS with.


I just had to vent. I hope that our industry shapes up before its too late. I am a young guy in my 20s. I worry greatly about where the hobby will be in 10-20 years if it is around at all. Hopefully we can make things better and begin to actually fix some of the issues that this industry has...

Nice rant. But you are too young to be so good at what takes most people 60 or 70 years to achieve :-)

Things have certainly changed, but none of it seems to be at the “existential threat” level. Tune out the BS, stop watching ALL videos and slow the pace of checking social media. It might bring back some joy.

Dan
 
Modern day reefing is wild when you’ve been around in the hobby at least in the last 20 years to see how it’s changed.

I still keep all my sps frags $10. let me know if you make it to Wisconsin and want the nostalgia pricing lol.
 
We had a pong game (Montgomery Ward) before we got the Atari.

1769629702807.png



Also had a large collection of handheld football, baseball, basketball, etc.
This was our "gaming" in the 70's and into the 80's

1769629558944.png


"I Took a Lickin' From a Chicken" and of course a Merlin.

Cousin had "digital derby" - it was amazing.
1769629819535.png


Also mini console pac-man and some other cool stuff.
I actually do have the mini console Pac-Man! Colleco Pac-Man right? I’ve been wanting to grab a pong clone or a maganvox odyssey but sadly a lot of pong clones don’t work and th odyssey is not the most common thing around
 
LOL, my first "tank" was in the bottom of a wooden wine barrel. 😆

I had freshwater fish, and in another barrel, I had water turtles and land tortoises in another. That was circa 1954 or so.

I have had a fish tank every day of my life, and I am older than Saint Theresa. 😬

I started my reef in 1971, almost the day the hobby started in the US so I saw virtually every "new" idea, device, book, article or other creation to allow this hobby to either progress or decline.

I have seen hundreds of people get into the hobby and almost all of them leave.
Many of them most likely due to diseases. There were just as many disease problems in the 70s as there are now, even with all the information and medications. (Just look at the disease forum)

I feel that is our fault because many people got away from the basics and common sense doesn't mean much any longer.

The vast majority of information we get now is from Noobs who have been in the hobby for just a few years.

When I started there was no computers or internet, Just one black and white magazine and that information was mostly wrong. But it did have some common sense.


The only one in the hobby was Robert Straughn, "The Father of Salt Water Fish Keeping"

I still use common sense as much as I can and am not swayed by all the information and advertisements for new and innovative things.

When the hobby started we all had undergravel filters. They worked well but we used them incorrectly. I re designed it and still use one. It has been working in my reef for 55 years so far and it has never crashed.

They fell out of favor along with Wet Dry filters even though they worked well. But there isn't much money in them, and they never fail or break so commercially, they are a dead end.

I also use dolomite gravel, not available any more for the same reason.

Now instead of keeping the fish healthy through their own immune system we have multitudes of medications. I don't use any of them because I learned the secret decades ago and I learned much of it from my nearly 400 hours I spent underwater with these creatures. The fish can tell us everything we want to know if we just listen to them. They are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves as long as we don't try to cure things that don't need curing.



We make the fish sick, no one else. I don't want to get into that because of the arguments and this interesting thread which is moving along peacefully and nicely. 😎

“I am not aware of any QUALITY books that have been released in the past 5 years(please let me know that I am wrong, I really hope that I am).
OOhhhNNNoo Sub. I think my book is the best thing that ever happened to this, and "ALL" hobbies. 😆

I got a call from the Amazon asking me to stop printing my book because they are running out of trees. The Gideons are thinking of replacing bibles in hotel rooms with my book 🙄🤗
(Also 100% of the profits go to MS research)
All that’s out there now are self-published, poorly edited “vanity books”.
I agree that my book is poorly edited. I had 4 editors and every one re edited what the last one did. If I ever write another book, I will not have it edited, incorrect spelling and all. 😬
What qualifies someone to give advice?

Someone who has been in the hobby since before last Tuesday and can keep some goldfish alive. 🐠 (OK not a goldfish, Looks like a Copperband/goldfish)
 
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biggest issues- unscrupulous vendors, poor quality product, the lack of true caring for the livestock, and we have now priced young hobbyist and some older ones, out of the hobby thus threatening the future. I have mostly been all about the fish and not corals.
 
I am not trying to be overly negative or elitist. And I certainly could be wrong about some things. But I honestly hate the direction this industry/hobby has gone in the past 6-8 years. I have been in the hobby for over 15 years and I feel like things have degraded considerably...

1. Quality of information. This is by far my biggest complaint! I am so sick and tired of bs fish influencers that come on YouTube and think they know ball. The content is mostly slop and has very little value. I am sure there are good YouTubers, but when i got into this hobby, the best source was a good book. Especially if you are just starting out. I am not aware of any QUALITY books that have been released in the past 5 years(please let me know that I am wrong, I really hope that I am). Most recs I have seen for books still recommend books that are over 10 years old. We have way better technology, it would be nice if someone credible could discuss how to use it.

2. Availability of livestock. We all know the Hawaii closure was a massive blow to the hobby. Other closures like Indo torches, or Fiji liverock have been significant as well but the lack of diversity seems to be increasing. What bothers me though, is that there seems to be a huge lack of cohesion in this industry to fight legislation. In the reptile world, this is a huge part of the hobby and it has faired(mostly) positive. Organizations like PIJAC have luckily done a lot but the average aquarium owner seems to be blissfully unaware or unbothered by possible legal issues. Talk to the bird people about the Wild Bird Conservation Act and see how well things worked out for them. Better yet, read about the proposed Saving Nemo Act...

3. The decline in worthwhile events. Ever since MACNA's dissolution, there have been only a couple remaining events. MACNA was so special since it was the yearly "state of the hobby" if you will. We got to see new product releases, crazy imports, and meet influential figures in the industry. There was also an education component where scientists presented research and we got to hear seminars from credible people. Now, events are numerous and decentralized to extract as much money from the vendors and attendees as possible. Aquashella, is targeted to beginner hobbyists and gives their speaking engagements to Aquarium Influencers that have really no value besides their name recognition(sorry not sorry). That isn't to say that these events don't have a place in the community, I think its good there is a beginner friendly conference people can go to and learn more about the hobby. But an event that is catered towards advanced hobbyists is desperately needed.

4. Named corals, defective products, and general shadiness. Those of us who have been around long enough remember when a coral was the name of its species. Naming a coral some stupid name then selling a quarter inch frag for 80 bucks is ridiculous. I understand why vendors do it. If I had a shop I'd do it too. But it is frustrating nonetheless. Companies like Red Sea that charge astronomical amounts of money for tanks that are known to leak(go find the dozens of threads including mine talking about it) and then seemingly do nothing to resolve the problem is incredibly discouraging. Look at the LiveAquaria debacle. That company use to be the face of the industry. If you wanted online fish that were gonna get there healthy, that was the place. But after corporate buyouts, the company withered away rife with scandals. I am tired of overpriced crap that breaks. I am tired of livestock that arrives half-dead. I am tired of lies and deceit from companies that I have spent THOUSANDS with.


I just had to vent. I hope that our industry shapes up before its too late. I am a young guy in my 20s. I worry greatly about where the hobby will be in 10-20 years if it is around at all. Hopefully we can make things better and begin to actually fix some of the issues that this industry has...
You talk like an old hand when you’re a young man. I’ve been doing this since you were still sitting in you own ****. Pipe down with the whining! If you don’t want to watch something on social media, don’t watch it. If you can’t afford to buy $80 frags, don’t direct your anger at people who give them the names and sell them. It’s attitudes like yours that ruin this, not anything else. Get a grip!
Reefkeeping today is amazing compared to what it used to be like, with far more accurate and fast testing, automation, knowledge sharing etc etc….
 
You talk like an old hand when you’re a young man. I’ve been doing this since you were still sitting in you own ****. Pipe down with the whining! If you don’t want to watch something on social media, don’t watch it. If you can’t afford to buy $80 frags, don’t direct your anger at people who give them the names and sell them. It’s attitudes like yours that ruin this, not anything else. Get a grip!
Reefkeeping today is amazing compared to what it used to be like, with far more accurate and fast testing, automation, knowledge sharing etc etc….
And 80 percent of new reefers fail and sell their equipment on Facebook marketplace for 10 cents on a dollar because they lacked the fundamental knowledge of chemistry and biology and couldn't be an immediate Instagram star. Wanna buy an apex controller?? I got 3 that came with failed acrylic tanks that I have bought.
 

HOW MUCH DOES A FISH’S FEEDING REQUIREMENTS AFFECT YOUR STOCKING DECISIONS?

  • A lot! - I avoid fish that require frequent or specialized feeding

    Votes: 20 33.9%
  • Quite a bit, but an automatic feeder can change my answer

    Votes: 8 13.6%
  • It depends on whether my nutrient export can handle it

    Votes: 8 13.6%
  • It depends on how badly I want the fish

    Votes: 12 20.3%
  • Not much. I’m willing to adjust my routine

    Votes: 9 15.3%
  • Not at all. Feeding demands don’t limit my stocking choices

    Votes: 10 16.9%
  • I usually learn about the demanding feeding schedule after buying the fish!

    Votes: 2 3.4%
  • I haven’t really considered this before

    Votes: 4 6.8%
  • Something else (see my comments in the thread)

    Votes: 2 3.4%
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