Reef moonshiners program

[rtparty]

I'm not talking about powdered AFR mix, I'm talking about the separate components that make up AFR. There is a "DIY recipe" that TM published before the powdered mix came out.

You can add or leave out anything you want that way.

I like the all in one approach for the big 3 so I can use a single dosing pump.

I have the DIY version and you can't leave out certain elements. Leaving out one, leaves out many.

The DIY version has carbocalcium (alkalinity and calcium), bio magnesium (magnesium), and then trace elements A- and K+.

Pro-Coral A- Trace 2 Contains:

Bromine
Fluorine
Iodine
Lithium
Molybdenum
Selenium
Vanadium

Pro-Coral K+ Trace 1 Contains:

Barium
Boron
Chrome
Cobalt
Iron
Copper
Manganese
Nickel
Strontium
Zinc

You can't control the amount of each trace element. If you alter the recipe, you alter the amounts of many of the trace elements.

This may or may not work for your particular setup. You could certainly try it. My experience with AFR says your levels will be off and you'll be dosing individual elements anyway

 

[Reefahholic]

What’s the startup cost on this? There’s not a ton of info out there on that topic. Or I’m just not finding it

So you basically do your first ICP and buy as you need elements. I think an average initial cost is about $300, but most of these elements last for a very long time. There’s 3-4 that go quick initially if there a depleted. Once you bring those up then you are good to go.

 

[Radman73]

So you basically do your first ICP and buy as you need elements. I think an average initial cost is about $300, but most of these elements last for a very long time. There’s 3-4 that go quick initially if there a depleted. Once you bring those up then you are good to go.

Yep, very easy to understand and also a great support group.

 

[KenO]

Just make sure you use the ATI test kit.

 

[Reefahholic]

Just make sure you use the ATI test kit.

Yes, so the ATI test kits were chosen on purpose for many different reasons. The tools are built around this test. ATI also tests your RODI water which in many cases is an issue for a lot of reefers. Things like silicates and exhausted DI resin can cause a lot of issues. This test also tests for Fluoride which is one of the primary reasons it was chosen. It also includes a pre-paid return label which is always nice! These are just a few reasons why this test was chosen, but trust me…it goes far beyond this.

 

[Reefahholic]

I have the DIY version and you can't leave out certain elements. Leaving out one, leaves out many.

The DIY version has carbocalcium (alkalinity and calcium), bio magnesium (magnesium), and then trace elements A- and K+.

Pro-Coral A- Trace 2 Contains:

Bromine
Fluorine
Iodine
Lithium
Molybdenum
Selenium
Vanadium

Pro-Coral K+ Trace 1 Contains:

Barium
Boron
Chrome
Cobalt
Iron
Copper
Manganese
Nickel
Strontium
Zinc

You can't control the amount of each trace element. If you alter the recipe, you alter the amounts of many of the trace elements.

This may or may not work for your particular setup. You could certainly try it. My experience with AFR says your levels will be off and you'll be dosing individual elements anyway

Exactly. That has also been my experience with many products on the market. When they try to pack a lot of elements into 3-4 bottles they either come up low on ICP or some elements end up drifting out of target ranges over time which causes issues. Even if elements are just low you are not going to see the most optimal growth or color.

 

[shakacuz]

just ordered my first batch of elements from brightwell/RMS. let's see how i can improve my 40B!

 

[minus9]

just ordered my first batch of elements from brightwell/RMS. let's see how i can improve my 40B!

Welcome to the club!

 

[biecacka]

very interested in following along everyones success. I am interested in the process


corey

 

[shakacuz]

Welcome to the club!

may utilize this opportunity to start my build thread to be able to finally document my growth/progress..

 

[minus9]

very interested in following along everyones success. I am interested in the process


corey

Download the handbook for free and give it a read through (a couple times). Here

 

[Reefahholic]

This method pays for itself. When you bring a lot of these elements into their proper ranges you’ll notice the tank and microbiome as a whole will be much more stable. Although we do elevate for more vivid color.

My observations: Coralline algae will begin to take off quicker than it ever has before in new systems. Corals show more PE and better growth/health overall.

People always ask me how this differs from the Triton method. I’ll give you the main differences below.

The first difference is this method uses the ATI test and the tools are built around it. ATI will also test for Flouride. Very important element IMO. This element cannot be detected by ICP analysis and must be measured separately via IC/ISE HSA which is likely why Triton does not test for it. Triton does not elevate elements for better color pop. Their elements come in 100mL bottles vs 500mL bottles which is 80% smaller. They do not test your RO water with your tank water which is sometimes the primary issue in a lot of systems. Lastly, Eshan does not have a group that he manages personally 24/7. Andre always helps those who may be new or just having tank issues in general. You just can’t get that kind of support anywhere else. One of the perks about being in the group is that you will see countless ICP results which begins to give you more knowledge about which foods, 2-parts, medias, salts, etc. have elements drifting out of range or those that introduce pollutants.

 

[danieyella]

This method pays for itself. When you bring a lot of these elements into their proper ranges you’ll notice the tank and microbiome as a whole will be much more stable. Although we do elevate for more vivid color.

My observations: Coralline algae will begin to take off quicker than it ever has before in new systems. Corals show more PE and better growth/health overall.

People always ask me how this differs from the Triton method. I’ll give you the main differences below.

The first difference is this method uses the ATI test and the tools are built around it. ATI will also test for Flouride. Very important element IMO. This element cannot be detected by ICP analysis and must be measured separately via IC/ISE HSA which is likely why Triton does not test for it. Triton does not elevate elements for better color pop. Their elements come in 100mL bottles vs 500mL bottles which is 80% smaller. They do not test your RO water with your tank water which is sometimes the primary issue in a lot of systems. Lastly, Eshan does not have a group that he manages personally 24/7. Andre always helps those who may be new or just having tank issues in general. You just can’t get that kind of support anywhere else. One of the perks about being in the group is that you will see countless ICP results which begins to give you more knowledge about which foods, 2-parts, medias, salts, etc. have elements drifting out of range or those that introduce pollutants.

To piggy back on this a little : flouride is my heaviest correction every test. Obviously it's important to my reef. I can't imagine seeing my tank thrive in this way without the shine

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

To piggy back on this a little : flouride is my heaviest correction every test. Obviously it's important to my reef. I can't imagine seeing my tank thrive in this way without the shine

Why is it obviously important? You mean just because it declines?

I'm not saying fluoride isn't useful (don't know), but a decline is not evidence of benefit to maintaining NSW levels.

 

[Reefahholic]

Ok, just to clarify. Triton does sell some 1000mL elements in milk cartons, but Zinc, Iron, Nickel, Vanadium, their Infusion, etc…is 100mL.

 

[Reefahholic]

Why is it obviously important? You mean just because it declines?

I'm not saying fluoride isn't useful (don't know), but a decline is not evidence of benefit to maintaining NSW levels.

Randy…just a little info from Fauna Marin:


Fluor is a highly reactive element and therefore only occurs in seawater as fluoride. As another halogens, it also plays a very important role in reef aquaria. In relation to iodine, fluorine should be present about 25 times higher (see relation values).

Fluorine is an element whose concentration cannot be detected by ICP analysis. Due to the great importance of this element, however, we have purchased special equipment for its analysis.

WHAT IS THIS:

Fluor is present in seawater as fluoride. Fluorine is an essential element for corals. In addition to its inhibiting effect on bacteria and algae, it is important for growth of corals and the defence against parasites. Fluorine also has an effect on the blue colouration of many corals.

PROBLEMS:

A too low fluorine concentration shows itself in dull tissue, reduced growth, colourless growth peaks or growth edges in foliaceous growing corals (e.g. Montipora species) and partial light sensitivity. Furthermore, the animals become more susceptible to parasitic infestation. The skeleton softens considerably. At a Florine level under 0,8 mg/Liter (o,26gal) some SPS corals showed slow tissue necrosis from the base.

MEASURES:

Regular control of the fluoride value, if necessary adjustment of the dosage. Reduction by partial water change and adjustment of the dosage.

INDICATOR SPECIES:

Indicator species are Acropora tenuis as well as Montipora species with blue or green colour and blue margin. When the fluorine deficiency starts, the blue colouration decreases and growth stops. If the fluorine deficiency increases, the sensitivity of corals to parasites such as AEFW (Acropora eating flatworms) and Montipora snails increases.

 

[Reefahholic]

To piggy back on this a little : flouride is my heaviest correction every test. Obviously it's important to my reef. I can't imagine seeing my tank thrive in this way without the shine

Flouride does seem to be an element that is heavily consumed in a lot of systems.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, I'm familiar with fluoride, and do not agree with what they have written, especially about bacteria.

That said, I am open to it being useful, or not.

I was just questioning the assertion that "obviously" its important, and was trying to understand why it is obvious.

As an aside, why when you google "fluoride in coral" the first hit is Fauna Marine? Might it be they are stating something that scientists do not generally state? Almost every response on page 1 is a hobby reseller of fluoride products.


Without getting into issues of color, is there any scientific paper that supports these several claims in a marine system?

"Fluorine is an essential element for corals.

In addition to its inhibiting effect on bacteria and algae, it is important for growth of corals and the defence against parasites."



If there are, they are not easy to find.

 

[Reefahholic]

Thanks, I'm familiar with fluoride, and do not agree with what they have written, especially about bacteria.

That said, I am open to it being useful, or not.

I was just questioning the assertion that "obviously" its important, and was trying to understand why it is obvious.

As an aside, why when you google "fluoride in coral" the first hit is Fauna Marine? Might it be they are stating something that scientists do not generally state? Almost every response on page 1 is a hobby reseller of fluoride products.


Without getting into issues of color, is there any scientific paper that supports these several claims in a marine system?

"Fluorine is an essential element for corals.

In addition to its inhibiting effect on bacteria and algae, it is important for growth of corals and the defence against parasites."



If there are, they are not easy to find.

There’s not a lot of data. Most seems to be anecdotal, there’s definitely a relationship between F/Ca. That one study showed that in 9 different coral reefs there was clearly a linear relationship between F/Ca that decreases with increasing temperatures and is possibly controlled by Carbonate. They seem to have an issue trying to compute fluoride content in shells or coral skeletons, because when the samples are dissolved in hydrochloric acid, the resulting solution has a cal- cium ion concentration of 0.1 M, a chloride concentration of 0.3 (whatever that means). Apparently it’s hard to determine. Can you makes sense of this Randy?

Fluoride in non-symbiotic coral associated with seawater carbonate

In order to elucidate factors controlling incorporation of fluoride from seawater into non-symbiotic coral skeletons, the mole ratio of fluorine to ca…

www.sciencedirect.com

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/geochemj/44/5/44_1.0079/_pdf

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There’s not a lot of data. Most seems to be anecdotal, there’s definitely a relationship between F/Ca. That one study showed that in 9 different coral reefs there was clearly a linear relationship between F/Ca that decreases with increasing temperatures and is possibly controlled by Carbonate. They seem to have an issue trying to compute fluoride content in shells or coral skeletons, because when the samples are dissolved in hydrochloric acid, the resulting solution has a cal- cium ion concentration of 0.1 M, a chloride concentration of 0.3 (whatever that means). Apparently it’s hard to determine. Can you makes sense of this Randy?

Fluoride in non-symbiotic coral associated with seawater carbonate

In order to elucidate factors controlling incorporation of fluoride from seawater into non-symbiotic coral skeletons, the mole ratio of fluorine to ca…

www.sciencedirect.com

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/geochemj/44/5/44_1.0079/_pdf

Yes, I've read some of those papers, and the mechanism of fluoride incorporation into skeletons, which is, in some ways like strontium, which is simple inorganic chemistry and does not imply any biological benefit or role. For strontium, it is simple substitution of Sr for Ca.

In this case, it sounds like a simple swap of F- in place of carbonate, with more F- leading to more swapped in incorporation:

"Tanaka and Ohde (2010) applied the ion-exchange model (Ichikuni, 1979) to the incorporation of fluoride from seawater into symbiotic reef-building coral skeletons (aragonite) and found that F/Ca in coral aragonite linearly increased with increasing seawater [F−]2/[CO32 −]. "