ReefKeeper's Departure Hurts The Industry

[Rcpilot]

My anti-DA posts, and yes, I've made several, aren't about their products, but their service, or lack thereof. I bought my RKL with a normal expectation of some level of support. When I needed it, that support was not available, and yes, I resent it. RKL + PB4 + SLX + pH probe... I consider the entire transaction a huge waste of money, and the single largest mistake I've made in this hobby. It was months AFTER I gave up and dumped my RKL that rumors they had closed their doors started circulating. I am hopeful that my negative posts saved a few people from making the same mistake I made.

If you've got one, and are happy with it, or plan to buy closeout or used DA gear KNOWING that they are closed, hey, that's your call. As long as you know they're not going to be there to support you, fine, you've made an informed decision. I was denied that opportunity.

Man, I RESPECT that. I'd be miffed as well. You spend hundreds - maybe more than a thousand bucks - on a reef controller, you'd expect them to answer the phone or respond to an email if you need some help.

I'm in the market for a controller and had no idea this was going down with the RK system. I almost bought one a few days ago, but decided to research a bit more.

So glad I found this thread!! Thank you @DSmithZ28

 

[Servillius]

I'm a software engineer and a beginner with reef tanks. I just wanted to chip in and say it is hard to develop cross-platform and web applications (i.e., browser support, iPhone, Android, etc). Yes there are packages that allow you to render a web app natively on the iPhone but that doesn't mean there's a whole load of migrating, adjusting, support, etc to be made to make that possible. A small company like DA could maybe afford in-house development? But outsourcing a project like this is still extremely difficult and expensive due to the very specific nature of the software; this isn't a student web portal or whatever, it's a full blown system that needs development all the way from embedded systems to end user's hardware. And then you having hosting and support costs on top of that.

All I'm trying to say is it must be extremely difficult to make hardware/software succeed in this industry due to the small user base and highly technical nature. For that I applaud the Apex product and team, although it certainly isn't for me -- yet

Sorry, just wanted to offer my .02 as to why this kind of technology is scarce and expensive.

Yah, we recently started a software company. I have the benefit of three full time developers and an electrical engineer and my affection for Reefkeeper has me curious!

 

[Servillius]

Dynon Instruments out of the Seattle area.

Thanks! I did a web search and didn’t turn up much. Do you happen to have a link or email or something?

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

I'm getting back into the hobby. I'm looking at controllers and the APEX was on my list. I don't want to bring negetive stuff into this thread, but I'd really appreciate your insight. Can you PM me and tell me why you don't like the APEX?

I know NOTHING about controllers. I would be so grateful for an honest opinion of the current market offerings.

I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing the Apex in this thread, as well as hobbyists' opinions of it. Especially since it's basically the only controller in town now.

First and foremost, I don't like how much the hobby relies on controllers now. As nice as they are, they are still entirely optional, yet many people don't think a tank can be run without one. Worse yet, I think many hobbyists are skipping on critical contingency planning because they believe their Apex has them covered. Knowing, for instance, that your return pump failed is all well and good, but what does that actually do for you? What if you work more than an hour away from home and can't take 3 hours out of your day to go replace your return pump? What if you live closer to work, but you can't take off because you're working on a big project? Or are in meetings all day? What if you don't have a spare pump and can't get one until one ships out to you? What if you're on vacation and you don't have a tank-sitter? What if you're on vacation and you have a tank-sitter, but they're not very good with aquariums? What if you have a tank sitter that's good with aquariums, but you don't have a return pump for them? Will they have the time to go to a LFS for you, buy a pump that may or may not fit your existing plumbing, and install it? What if they can do all that, but they're not great at PVC plumbing and don't really know how to cut and glue the PVC for the new pump in place?

In both of the above scenarios, I argue the Apex is not going to help much. Solving your problem relies much more on your logistics and how well you plan ahead. If you haven't planned ahead and taken care of a few key variables, knowing that your return pump failed is of little value.

My next complaint is the price. The Apex is a circuit board with some basic software loaded into it. The BOM (bill of materials) for this device is likely well under $50. It might be under $20 or so if Neptune makes some or all of the device in a third-world country like China or India. The software, after initial R&D, is free to load on the device. There is no reason that $25 - $50 worth of plastic, relays and chips should cost $800.

My final complaint is from an IT security perspective. I hate having any device be Internet-connected if it doesn't need to be. Neptune's software is not open source, nor have they made any attempts to have their software audited for flaws by an outside security consultant. You might say this is an unfair standard to set as almost no company that manufacturers IoT devices does this, and I agree. However, if the device does not meet these standards, it's not going online on my home network. I have far too much valuable digital information to allow a random closed-source device sit online on my network 24/7.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

I'm a software engineer and a beginner with reef tanks. I just wanted to chip in and say it is hard to develop cross-platform and web applications (i.e., browser support, iPhone, Android, etc). Yes there are packages that allow you to render a web app natively on the iPhone but that doesn't mean there's a whole load of migrating, adjusting, support, etc to be made to make that possible. A small company like DA could maybe afford in-house development? But outsourcing a project like this is still extremely difficult and expensive due to the very specific nature of the software; this isn't a student web portal or whatever, it's a full blown system that needs development all the way from embedded systems to end user's hardware. And then you having hosting and support costs on top of that.

All I'm trying to say is it must be extremely difficult to make hardware/software succeed in this industry due to the small user base and highly technical nature. For that I applaud the Apex product and team, although it certainly isn't for me -- yet

Sorry, just wanted to offer my .02 as to why this kind of technology is scarce and expensive.

Responsive web development has never been easier or faster than it is today. Nor has cross-platform smartphone application ever been so easy with the advent of frameworks like Xamarin. With the newest Visual Studio, you can develop Android, Windows Phone and iOS applications all from within one IDE. Plus, once you develop the code once, it doesn't cost a dime to load it onto new devices.

The upfront development costs were likely nontrivial. But I don't think it's fair to say that software costs are why a box of plastic and relays costs $800.

 

[i_declare_bankruptcy]

Responsive web development has never been easier or faster than it is today. Nor has cross-platform smartphone application ever been so easy with the advent of frameworks like Xamarin. With the newest Visual Studio, you can develop Android, Windows Phone and iOS applications all from within one IDE. Plus, once you develop the code once, it doesn't cost a dime to load it onto new devices.

The upfront development costs were likely nontrivial. But I don't think it's fair to say that software costs are why a box of plastic and relays costs $800.

Agreed that it hasn't been easier or faster -- but that doesn't mean easy or fast. Just better.

I work at a company that has a suite of iOS and web apps. I can tell you that it isn't that easy or practical. Ionic, React Native, etc. all have their own caveats and, at the end of the day, are quite young. We've stayed away from these frameworks because of performance issues and lack of compatibility for interactions and optimizations. Granted our application is significantly more intensive than something a ReefKeeper would need, it's still not simple. Anyways I digress.

Oof, you know I had the Apex in my head when thinking about all this. Point still stands about recouping R&D and dev costs on a small user base, but wow it's a good bit more simple (not that that's bad) than the Apex lol.

 

[redfishbluefish]

Thanks! I did a web search and didn’t turn up much. Do you happen to have a link or email or something?

Dynon Avionics
19825 141st Pl NE, Woodinville, WA 98072
Phone: (425) 402-0433

WEBSITE


Wonder is it's coincidence that Dynon Avionics and Digital Aquatics are both DA?

 

[Ryanbrs]

My next complaint is the price. The Apex is a circuit board with some basic software loaded into it. The BOM (bill of materials) for this device is likely well under $50. It might be under $20 or so if Neptune makes some or all of the device in a third-world country like China or India. The software, after initial R&D, is free to load on the device. There is no reason that $25 - $50 worth of plastic, relays and chips should cost $800.

I think this feeling is shared by a lot of reefers.

My two bits. I don't know what the BOM cost is but just based on reviewing their facility and discussions with their team, if they fired everyone and just left the product right where it is today I bet they could cut the retail cost in half. However that was DA's business model and no one really liked that either.

I think the cost is more related to infrastructure and talent than it is the hardware. Those exependtures produce investments in improving the products hardware, software and available accessories. This just isn't a huge industry and the controller end of it is what almost anyone would refer to as tiny. I do think a very significant portion of what you are buying with the apex's $800 price point is the supporting infrastructure and ecosystem. That said I am just guessing here, they could be making a killing

 

[Ben Henwood]

Talking about relying on your Apex automation too much....when is the Neptune Trident coming out? I think I need it in my life.

 

[Bigzman]

I am also disappointed. This was a affordable but more importantly simple option that did what most people needed and without a long manual.

I personally reached out and tried to put them in touch with multiple potential buyers to keep it going but they didn’t seem interested in exploring that. Really odd.

Hopefully someone will fill this affordable and simple space.

Ryan, What about selling just the IP? Is there any hope or interest for someone to buy IP. Just doesn’t make since they would rather close than to make any money. Archon units had so much potential in open source as they had ram and power.

 

[Falcon53]

I'm afraid 'investing' in tech from small, boutique manufacturers is always a risk. Even though Neptune is hardly huge in the broader a electronics industry, I bought apex NOT because I necessarily thought it was the best tech but because I thought the company was most likely to persist. Time will tell, of course, but my experiences with hi-end audio equipment from small companies has taught me a good lesson about the value of product support.

Exactly. And this is why I never, ever, ever but Italian car audio products haha. Only Helix.

 

[CherBear811]

Ask and ye shall receive.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/brsinstructions/brsDigitalAquatics/rkl/RKL+User+Guide+2_0+-+Web.pdf

You are THE man!! Thank you so much!!!

 

[mcarroll]

Wireless is _cheap_ to implement these days...

Last I heard this was not the case. Did licensing change?

 

[mcarroll]

I know NOTHING about controllers. I would be so grateful for an honest opinion of the current market offerings.

I'm pretty sure everything currently on the market shares the same group of downsides (over-complex; unnecessary features as standard) at this point so I don't know what to tell you.

 

[ca1ore]

First and foremost, I don't like how much the hobby relies on controllers now. As nice as they are, they are still entirely optional, yet many people don't think a tank can be run without one. Worse yet, I think many hobbyists are skipping on critical contingency planning because they believe their Apex has them covered. Knowing, for instance, that your return pump failed is all well and good, but what does that actually do for you? What if you work more than an hour away from home and can't take 3 hours out of your day to go replace your return pump? What if you live closer to work, but you can't take off because you're working on a big project? Or are in meetings all day? What if you don't have a spare pump and can't get one until one ships out to you? What if you're on vacation and you don't have a tank-sitter? What if you're on vacation and you have a tank-sitter, but they're not very good with aquariums? What if you have a tank sitter that's good with aquariums, but you don't have a return pump for them? Will they have the time to go to a LFS for you, buy a pump that may or may not fit your existing plumbing, and install it? What if they can do all that, but they're not great at PVC plumbing and don't really know how to cut and glue the PVC for the new pump in place?

All true. I do think many people put to much stock in their controller, and fail to realize that they have introduced a major 'single point of failure'; and being told the pump has failed (though perhaps in the future the apex will tell you when the pump is about to fail based on current draw) and not be able to easily replace it is problematic. There are, however, many alerts that are useful.

My next complaint is the price. The Apex is a circuit board with some basic software loaded into it. The BOM (bill of materials) for this device is likely well under $50. It might be under $20 or so if Neptune makes some or all of the device in a third-world country like China or India. The software, after initial R&D, is free to load on the device. There is no reason that $25 - $50 worth of plastic, relays and chips should cost $800.

My experience with things sold for hobbies is that 'willingness to pay' is more a driver of price than underlying costs. I do think you probably fail to account for development costs, but if the underlying materials (have to include the cost of energy bar, probes, cables, etc., so quite a bit more than $50 I'd guess), labor and R&D costs were used, along with a reasonable gross margin, you likely aren't still anywhere close to $800.

 

[Rcpilot]

I'm pretty sure everything currently on the market shares the same group of downsides (over-complex; unnecessary features as standard) at this point so I don't know what to tell you.

I stayed up until well past my bedtime last night, reading this thread. (ugly as heck this morning for lack of my required beauty rest)

I'm not getting a controller. Never had one in the past. Don't NEED one. I thought I WANTED one, but not after reading this thread. I'll just do it all old school with DIY ingenuinty and regular ole test kits.

If I take that vacation to Europe in 2019 -- we may have a problem. I'm hoping to make it trouble free for a week at a time. If I can pull that off, I'll take the trip. I got a year to figure it out.

My wife and I just moved to Florida (Floriduuuuuh) in April. We don't know a soul here. Hoping to make some friends soon. Prolly join a local reef club and start attending meetings or frag swaps.

 

[Greybeard]

Last I heard this was not the case. Did licensing change?

Don't know about licensing costs, but I just paid $35 for a Chromecast Audio device with built in wireless... NewEgg has wifi adapters for laptops starting at $3.

Yeah, I'd say it was fairly inexpensive to implement.

 

[TheEngineer]

There are other options too.

EKoral hasn’t been mentioned but looks like a nice product. At $650 to start it is expensive IMO.

GHL Profilux series gets lots of good reviews. Also expensive to start at around $600 I believe.

Reef Angel (which I use) starts at $400 for the new Star controller.

I’m personally the most excited about the hobbyist made DIY controllers. It just needs someone willing to give it a push to get it out there for commercial consumption.

None meet the sub $200 price point.

 

[Rython]

Holy cow I had no idea. Thanks for posting. The scramble to find an extra pb4 begins.

 

[mcarroll]

Don't know about licensing costs, but I just paid $35 for a Chromecast Audio device with built in wireless... NewEgg has wifi adapters for laptops starting at $3.

Yeah, I'd say it was fairly inexpensive to implement.

We're talking from the builder's perspective not from the consumer's.

NewEgg is no more a builder than you are.

They buy stuff already licensed and being made in China and resell it.

You can do the same....buy something you like that's cheap on eBay, slap on your name – print money.

Ask someone like DA or Apex or really any of the other vendors in our hobby what it costs to implement WiFi or Bluetooth.

(I googled this one...read thru comments: https://www.microchip.com/forums/m1016226.aspx)