Royal Gramma harem

[norfolkgarden]

Something interesting to observe.

I Bought a group of 3 where one was 5x the size of the other two. It constantly was exerting its dominance over the other two for the first 6 months.

But then seemed to get weaker and weaker from doing so, that it perished first.

Lots of factors come to play in each of out tanks. Space and caves were not an issue, nor was underfeeding.

Biggest is about twice the size of next gramma.
All of them posture to some extent. Some times the little guys win if they are already backed into home territory.

Newest 3 are not as fat as the others yet. Working on that with individual bias as much as possible.

 

[albano]

Starting with *tiny* fish (1" or less?) is what makes it possible at all.
It is my understanding that starting with fish larger than 1.5" (almost guaranteed already male in a fish store environment) will fail.

Many times over the past ~45 yrs, I've kept groups of 3-5 Royal Grammas without problems, but have never had 1" Royal Grammas. A few months ago, I set up 2 new tanks and ordered 5 RGs online (~$10 each) all approx 2"... 2 are in a 200g and 3 are in a 500g, all doing fine.
I've always liked RGs and wouldn't have a tank without them. (Saltwater tanks since 1973)

 

[lapin]

I have 4 royals in my 600. They all have a home far away from the others. They will defend that spot. They swim together before lights on in the am and near lights out at night. One is big, prob the female.

 

[norfolkgarden]

Many times over the past ~45 yrs, I've kept groups of 3-5 Royal Grammas without problems, but have never had 1" Royal Grammas. A few months ago, I set up 2 new tanks and ordered 5 RGs online (~$10 each) all approx 2"... 2 are in a 200g and 3 are in a 500g, all doing fine.
I've always liked RGs and wouldn't have a tank without them. (Saltwater tanks since 1973)

Wow!

That is good to know!

Have all of your tank's been up in the 200 gallon range?

I'm still learning on all of this. So far just trying to build on other people's experience.
[emoji4]
Causality doesn't always mean I get warts from toads.


I only have 4 months personal success.
2 months if you count individual fish.
[emoji53]
Disease wiped out most of my fish a few months ago.

What is the longest the fish have cohabited together in the same tank?

If there are just two, do they ignore or avoid each other or do they spend a lot of time together deliberately?
Posturing or snuggling like a gobie and shrimp?

Love learning about their behaviour as much as possible.

Thanks!

 

[albano]

Wow!

That is good to know!

Have all of your tank's been up in the 200 gallon range?

When I started back in the 70's, 55g was a BIG tank...I had 4-5x 20-30g tanks and then 2x 75g which everyone thought was crazy big!
By mid 80's I had the 75g reefs in my businesses and 150 reef at home. Didn't get 300g till 1991...after that most tanks were 120-180g till about 2010 when I got my 450g. All was good until April 2016 when a well water storage tank exploded in my basement and split the seams on the 450. Kept almost everything alive for 2 yrs in 3x 120g tanks, set up my new 6'x5' 500g and 200g a few months ago and all is well

 

[norfolkgarden]

Looks beautiful!

When I started back in the 70's, 55g was a BIG tank...I had 4-5x 20-30g tanks and then 2x 75g which everyone thought was crazy big!
By mid 80's I had the 75g reefs in my businesses and 150 reef at home. Didn't get 300g till 1991...after that most tanks were 120-180g till about 2010 when I got my 450g. All was good until April 2016 when a well water storage tank exploded in my basement and split the seams on the 450. Kept almost everything alive for 2 yrs in 3x 120g tanks, set up my new 6'x5' 500g and 200g a few months ago and all is well

 

[norfolkgarden]

Still 8 grammas 3 weeks later. All fish are doing well. 3 new ones are a little fatter.

The copperband and yellow tang still have a lot of growing to do.
The clownfish pair are down amonst the rocks but still haven't settled into a home area yet.
It took a week before they just spent most of their time hanging around near the surface.

 

[OrionN]

I had a harem of 5 for years. Spawned often in my tank. The male grew old and feeble. One of the female change and promptly kill him, in a 450 gal tank. They were together for about 5 years before this happened.
The courtship is very interesting. The male would entice the female to go into his den with him. He would swim to her dance and then swim back to his dent. They spawned in the male's den. he guard the egg ball until they hatch, then go after another female. Male have long pelvic fins, past the start of the anal fin. Male also have more purple. Transition from purple to yellow is much closer to the tail in male. I got picture posted on ReefCentral sometime in the past.

 

[OrionN]

Female in front Male in the back. Sorry I don't have a picture that show the length of the Pelvic fins.

 

[norfolkgarden]

Royal gramma harem
January 2019 Update.

We had a group of 8 royal gramma in October 2018.
A smaller 8th royal gramma disappeared (into the rocks?) after a few months in the tank.
The 75 gallon tank has 200 pounds of holey and pukani live rock in it. It is arranged in a cubist structure that takes up most of the entire tank.
Including the bare bottom there are 2 layers of caves and many swim throughs and cut throughs around and above that.

We now have 5 royal gramma that I see on a daily basis. 3 of those are visible almost constantly. But mostly just sticking their head out of the rocks with a small amount of swimming.

During feeding 4 pop out immediately. Then a 5th comes out from the back much later on.
Feeding usually lasts 5 to 10 minutes. We feed frozen, frozen clams and live black worms from both sides of the tank to make sure everyone visible gets some.
We still regularly overfeed to make sure that plenty of food gets down to the seven 8" brittle stars.

The last time I could verify seeing 7 royal gramma at a time was almost 2 months ago.
At one point in early November I thought we were down to 6 royal gramma. I added 5 small H. chrysus (5/8" to 1.25") to the tank. (Small tub of sand in the back) That day it brought out the 7th royal gramma for a brief appearance during feeding.
Not necessarily a good thing. It probably meant that the 7th royal gramma was temporarily spooked out of its current hidden home or wasn't getting enough hidden food. (All pumps are on when we feed)

I would like to believe that the 3 royal gramma I never see are similar to the half dozen cryptic mini fish that I have added over the years. [emoji53]
There may still be a pygmy geometric hawkfish perchlette (3 viewings over 4 months, a year ago) and 3 ruby red scooters (1 male, 2 females) all added at different times over the years. (Pod additions every few months 'just because'.) The pom pom crabs (2 viewings a month after adding) and rock lobster (crab) could mostly be doing fine.
Our gecko Gobi took 2 months to reappear.
But I see that at least 3 times a week now, so who knows.
Probably just wishful thinking that all the others are still alive and well.

All 5 of the visible Royal gramma have grown dramatically. When they were added, they were as little as 3/4" to 1.25".
Now the smallest visible one is 1.25" and the largest is between 2" and 2.25".

The (1.5") starving yellow tang has exploded in growth (now 2.5") and completely bypassed the copperband butterfly fish (2"). The copperband remains fat and happy but still small.
We have been feeding even more clams in an attempt to increase the copperbands growth.
(Looks like I'm never getting a derasa.)
The 5 yellow 'coris' wrasse have also grown noticeably in several months.
The small longnose hawk fish and small flame hawk fish have not grown much at all. Both are still active, the first to feed and wander around the tank at their leisure.
The 2 ocelaris clownfish are fine but also not growing nearly as fast as some of the others. They reach the food even faster than the hawk fish. [emoji849]
At some point I would like to start a separate thread to learn about growth rates of different fish.

Yes, this is a ridiculous amount of fish for a 75 gallon tank.
Still dialing in the correct amount of GFO to control phosphate without crashing it completely and have a hard time keeping nitrate below 40.
In addition to the marine pure plate I have recently added a brightwell aquatics NO3 plate.
Weekly 10 to 15 gallon water changes are also part of regular maintenance.

We have enough (eventually mature) fish for two 75 gallon tanks. Both the mature copperband and the mature yellow tang are sketchy for a tank this size.
Current plans are to keep the 75 and add an additional 120 gallon tank to a different part of the house. The long 120 tank dimensions make it less demanding to the crawl space foundation of our house. Without shoring up the rafters underneath the house, I don't ever see us adding a 180 or similar dimension tank. (I am now to fat to fit into the 14" openings to our low crawlspace)

Back to the royal gramma.
At another LFS, I finally saw a 3" male royal gramma. "Oh, that's what you meant about the long fins."
Lol, none of ours are visibly male yet.

Several trips back to one of the usual LFS and observing the 15 tiny Royal gramma in their 40 gallon breeder. They are all out and about and fill the entire tank. (Is that because many are pushed out of the better hiding places?)

They are normally the only fish in that tank.
While none of our other fish are aggressive, all of them move around a lot more than the royal gramma do.

I am very happy with the tank mates that our Royal gramma have. The 5 immature yellow 'coris' wrasse remind me of a family of otters bouncing around. I will miss them all being in the same tank once they start maturing into males and fighting with each other constantly.
(Unlike some other fish harems, wrasse will all eventually turn male in a fish tank environment. Once subordinate wrasse turn into males they need to be rehomed before a fight to the death happens.)

If you want the royal gramma to be your signature harem and fill the entire tank space then they may need to be the only fish in the tank.
That is what will probably happen later with the 75 gallon tank. It will be primarily for the royal gramma.

 

[DesertReefBoy]

Anymore updates? I am thinking about adding 7 to my 90 as the last fish added to my tank.

 

[norfolkgarden]

Anymore updates? I am thinking about adding 7 to my 90 as the last fish added to my tank.

They are beautiful. 4 are out every feeding. 5th only once (2 days ago) in the past 2 weeks.
Last 3 of the 8 could be hiding effortlessly in the ridiculous amount of rock.
Or they could be dead and gone. [emoji53]

I am glad they are in the tank and have plenty of places to hide and call home.

Would I do it again? No.
Not without a lot of preplanning on exactly what the (more limited) stocking list was and not deviating from it. [emoji53]

They don't display nearly as well as they do at the LFS.
Whether that is because they have all found comfortable homes in the rock in our tank (a plus. I do want them to be comfortable) or they are too irritated by the other more active fish, or just the large amount of other, more active, fish in the tank.

Anyway, it no longer looks even close to the LFS tank (pictures below)

Also it is only 8 months so far. Largest at 2.5" does not display any signs of being male yet (longer fins and purple extended further back on fishs body). Hoping that won't be an issue when it finally happens.

What is the rest of your stocking list?

They are absolutely beautiful. But I don't see them much and worry it was because I added too many other fish to the tank.
They are aggressive enough at feeding time, but mostly hide the rest of the time.

Right now I am much happier with the 5 very active young yellow 'coris' wrasse.
(They are expected to become a potential problem when the 2nd wrasse turns male.)

 

[DesertReefBoy]

They are beautiful. 4 are out every feeding. 5th only once (2 days ago) in the past 2 weeks.
Last 3 of the 8 could be hiding effortlessly in the ridiculous amount of rock.
Or they could be dead and gone. [emoji53]

I am glad they are in the tank and have plenty of places to hide and call home.

Would I do it again? No.
Not without a lot of preplanning on exactly what the (more limited) stocking list was and not deviating from it. [emoji53]

They don't display nearly as well as they do at the LFS.
Whether that is because they have all found comfortable homes in the rock in our tank (a plus. I do want them to be comfortable) or they are too irritated by the other more active fish, or just the large amount of other, more active, fish in the tank.

Anyway, it no longer looks even close to the LFS tank (pictures below)

Also it is only 8 months so far. Largest at 2.5" does not display any signs of being male yet (longer fins and purple extended further back on fishs body). Hoping that won't be an issue when it finally happens.

What is the rest of your stocking list?

They are absolutely beautiful. But I don't see them much and worry it was because I added too many other fish to the tank.
They are aggressive enough at feeding time, but mostly hide the rest of the time.

Right now I am much happier with the 5 very active young yellow 'coris' wrasse.
(They are expected to become a potential problem when the 2nd wrasse turns male.)

At the moment I have a hippo, yellow, blue eye kole tangs, 4 blue green chromis (used to be 11) 2 bullet hole clowns and 7 anthias. The tangs rule the tank but are pretty chill. The blue tang is the largest at the moment. He is 4-5 in. Bought him when he was a pup roughly a inch long. The yellow and kole eye tangs are less then 2 in long. I was thinking about adding 6-7 royal grammas as the last fish I add to the tank. My tank is only 6-7 months old. I’m adding the anthias today and was thinking of adding the RG in a month or two.

 

[norfolkgarden]

At the moment I have a hippo, yellow, blue eye kole tangs, 4 blue green chromis (used to be 11) 2 bullet hole clowns and 7 anthias. The tangs rule the tank but are pretty chill. The blue tang is the largest at the moment. He is 4-5 in. Bought him when he was a pup roughly a inch long. The yellow and kole eye tangs are less then 2 in long. I was thinking about adding 6-7 royal grammas as the last fish I add to the tank. My tank is only 6-7 months old. I’m adding the anthias today and was thinking of adding the RG in a month or two.

From what others have said about scuba diving, they will really enjoy staying under the overhangs on that rock. And they will be easy to see. That should be pretty awesome.

The hippo should be ok for at least another year in your 90. They get at least 8", closer to a foot long at full growth.

The yellow and the kole should be forever fish in your 90. [emoji846]

Adding the royal gramma, and where I'm guessing they will hang out, should look beautiful in your tank!



Lol, this was not the presentation I was imagining when I got the grammas.

There is one in the left middle and 1 in the right middle. I swear.

 

[DesertReefBoy]

From what others have said about scuba diving, they will really enjoy staying under the overhangs on that rock. And they will be easy to see. That should be pretty awesome.

The hippo should be ok for at least another year in your 90. They get at least 8", closer to a foot long at full growth.

The yellow and the kole should be forever fish in your 90. [emoji846]

Adding the royal gramma, and where I'm guessing they will hang out, should look beautiful in your tank!



Lol, this was not the presentation I was imagining when I got the grammas.

There is one in the left middle and 1 in the right middle. I swear.

I’m excited. I have a 180 sitting in the garage. Just slowly buying stuff for it. It should hopefully be big enough for it. I’ll keep you posted when I buy the harem. I’m pretty excited.

 

[norfolkgarden]

I’m excited. I have a 180 sitting in the garage. Just slowly buying stuff for it. It should hopefully be big enough for it. I’ll keep you posted when I buy the harem. I’m pretty excited.

Sounds like a great plan!

Do you have a build thread?

 

[DesertReefBoy]

Sounds like a great plan!

Do you have a build thread?

I’ve thought about doing a build thread but decided not to

 

[norfolkgarden]

March update 2019

3 gramma are out, or at least poking out and visible on a daily basis.

The 4th one popped out from behind the rocks yesterday morning at feeding.
4th still looks good and bigger than 2 of the 'visible' 3.
The 3rd 'visible' royal gramma is the largest in the tank. Always has been.
First siting for #4 in about 3 weeks.
Lol, what prompted the update.

Still no idea if the rest of the 7 are all alive and content and hiding in the rocks. Or if that's in the category "Our old dog went to live on a farm". [emoji53]

Nearly every other fish in the tank is more boisterous, or at least simply more active, including the ocelaris clowns.

I am continuing to overfeed heavily in the hopes of continuing to reach all the fish living on 'the farm'.

 

[DesertReefBoy]

March update 2019

3 gramma are out, or at least poking out and visible on a daily basis.

The 4th one popped out from behind the rocks yesterday morning at feeding.
4th still looks good and bigger than 2 of the 'visible' 3.
The 3rd 'visible' royal gramma is the largest in the tank. Always has been.
First siting for #4 in about 3 weeks.
Lol, what prompted the update.

Still no idea if the rest of the 7 are all alive and content and hiding in the rocks. Or if that's in the category "Our old dog went to live on a farm". [emoji53]

Nearly every other fish in the tank is more boisterous, or at least simply more active, including the ocelaris clowns.

I am continuing to overfeed heavily in the hopes of continuing to reach all the fish living on 'the farm'.

How long have you had the harem for now? I’m starting to think it might not be worth adding them if they will slowly die off.

 

[norfolkgarden]

Going on 8 months.

It could be a classic case of "whittle the chromis down to one".

But every time I think that is the case, another one shows up out of nowhere.

The tank is a tetris cube of rock by design.
Not only are there 2 layers of caves, but the grammas fit within the voids inside the holey rock.

The 4th gramma that I saw for the 1st time in 3 weeks looked fatter then the 2 small ones that I see every day.

Every single one of them could be alive and well and laughing at me inside the rocks.
Or I could be completely naive and hopeful.

Every time I think I'm just being naive and hopeful, another one pops out of the rocks and says don't stop overfeeding for the amount of fish that you can still see...


For your application, the 1st concern would be

Do you have so many places to hide that they will disappear in your tank like they did in mine?

Are you planning on adding far more active fish that will encourage them to hide out of sight?
That picture from about 4 post up really does have 2 Royal grammas with their heads sticking out of holes half an inch.
Lol, can you go back and find them?

I really wanted my fish to look like the pictures below.
They don't.


After I eventually get a 125 set up and most of the fish in the 75 moved over to it, I would like to wait a month and see if any grammas pop out of the rock.